On the Cross Case

a. America very certainly is founded on Christian principles as revealed by the statements made by founding fathers themselves in their own words. It is grossly different from saying it is a Christian nation (which would mean being founded on Christian religion), no it is not - it is a secular nation as quoted by you from Treaty of Tripoli - appropriately chaired by God fearing President and participants.

b. Abolition of Slavery, Women's rights, good health are true Christian principles taken right out of the Bible. These are the principles initiated and largely executed by God fearing early Presidents.

It is an established fact therefore that all good things have to originate from God. Let's not kick against the wall and hurt ourselves. The facts will forever remain the facts - documented for posterity.

Look at a picture of the memorial, contained inside the museum. It's a beautiful memorial... with a cross stuck in the middle of it. The cross is not a historic relic, it is a religious idol that does not belong in the memorial.

The government has two options: 1) no religious icons at all. 2) religious icons for all beliefs.

It's constitutionally that simple.

I am appalled that instead of truly speaking out for "free thinking," atheists insist on reducing the choices of others. I've been an atheist for over 40 years and it makes me laugh to see people who supposedly believe "nothing" turning atheism into an us-against-them substitute religion. How sad. Christmas, with its silly traditions makes me smile as long as it's just one day out of the year. No wonder it's difficult to get believers to take atheists seriously. Atheists have just as much of an inflexible agenda as any born-again idiot. This entire exercise just makes atheists like myself, who take some solace in being right, just want to hide in shame. Of course it was just an accident that the two girders happened to make a cross. Only a cretin who sees the Virgin Mary in a piece of toast would think otherwise. But filing a law suit to prevent it's being part of a government-owned museum makes atheists appear to be small-minded and ridiculous. Count me out.

Kathleen,

You misunderstand my point. I think that filing any suit about religion, unless it involves Congress making a law to establish a state religion, is absurd and pointless. Just because a "cross" was one of the only standing pieces of girder at ground zero, it does not ipso facto become a Christian cross. It should be a part of the exhibit, just as all names of the Jewish, atheist, Christian, zoroastrian, Muslim, Ba'hai, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist (did I leave anyone out?) victims should be displayed in the museum. I have never apologized for being an atheist (although recently I have been tempted by pastafarianism). Nor have I hidden my compassionate contempt (oxymoron?) for those who need fairy tales and magic to give a false order to their lives. I just think atheists can do better than mere ridicule, which is what this amounts to. Religious majority? Possibly. I'm an elitist who realizes that dealing with reality is the most important thing we as people can do. A man I admire asked me once, "does it make you money and does it make you happy? If it doesn't do either, don't do it." I can't see how a law suit makes anyone money (except for lawyers) and if it makes someone happy to be a putz, I would rather not hang around with them. I have a life to live.

Hello Ludwig!

In clarification, I wasn't talking specifically about your post in my reply. My statement was a general statement in response to the folks on this thread, the threat thread, and even on Facebook who seem to think that by being silent, the fundies will somehow decide they don't hate us. Since they are going to hate us anyway, we might as well be aggressive about standing up for our rights. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Kathleen

As I understand it the "cross" would be part of the 9/11 Museum, which will showcase other artifacts and archive media from the tragedy. I am an atheist and I don't support this lawsuit. I don't support you deciding what should or should not be seen by me in a museum. The conservatives pull the same crap every time there is an art exhibit they don't like... they try to get it shut down. Same as you're doing. I remember that "cross" and the "flagpole" having meaning to those at Ground Zero and many others who mourned; therefore it has significance and in my opinion belongs in a museum dedicated to 9/11.

Sadly, this is just another example of why I stay away from the Movement of Atheism. Between this and the Dawkins incident----when feminist atheists stay away from your Movement you have a big fucking problem.

The WTC cross isn't going into the museum, it's the centerpiece of the actual memorial and it's already been moved to that location after a bunch of rituals were conducted to turn the site into "sanctified" ground. Sound much like a museum piece to you? If it was just going into a museum, it pretty much wouldn't be a problem. After all, museums the world over are stuffed with religious icons.

BTW, from one feminist atheist to another, it's totally cool you don't agree with American Atheists. That doesn't mean you shouldn't join the movement - there are plenty of other organizations out there fighting the same fight but on different fields. I personally would like to see this movement stuffed with women, whatever organization they join, because the alternatives the fundies offer us are unacceptable.

Kathleen

You seem to be all over a simple chunk of metal that was left in a certain shape, but I'm curious, what was your stance on the proposed mosque that was to be near ground zero? I'm new here so I missed any talk about that, if there even was any....

I agree with Ludwigian, when he pointed out that just because a "cross" was found at Ground Zero, does not mean it is therefore a Christian cross. In fact, this wasn't really a cross at all, I think it is plain to see.

This "cross" is actually a "T" and it symbolizes that the Tennessee Titans will win the next Super Bowl. In fact, if the Titans do win the Super Bowl (I mean, WHEN they do...), this will prove that this was a Tennessee Titans "T" and will also finally and completely refute Christianity.

And you feel that muslims however do have the right to have a monument or plaque or something to represent their faith? Explain that one please?