Moments of Silence (Also see the Issues Page)

Creationism in schools (Also see the Issues Page)

Should I give my kids a church, even though I don't believe?

Several questions on Church in school

What Does an Atheist Think of Death?

Mixed Relationships

What if my friend is upset about being associated with an Atheist, but I don't want to be quiet?

What should a kid do if his parents are forcing him to go to Church (in this case, a Catholic Church)

For Catholic Kids

Note: This is a reply to a letter asking for advice. This 15 year-old boy is being forced to go to church agauinst his will, and he asked how to get out of it, and what he could do to make himself feel better. Here's my response

I understand how bad it must be to be forced to attend church when you know it's all bull. I was there, when I was your age. I expect it's worse for you given the current state of the Catholic Church.

Here are a couple of suggestions.

1) you need to go if your parents are going to force you. You are only two eyars away from college, and religious freedom, but until then, if your parents are going to force you to go, you should go.

2) Make the best of the situation. Learn about Catholicism as much as you can, and listen well to the non-answers they give to the hard questions. Make it a game (it really IS fun) to try to catch them in lies.

3) When the collection plate comes around, drop in an envelope, in which you have written a note of protest. Just a line like "Donation withheld on morality principals" or "please pay your protperty taxes" will drive them buggy, and make you happy!

4) Find OTHER people who agree with you. Join an Astronomy, physics, or science club. Join a Humanist club if you can. Subscribe to a magazine if your parents will let you (I recommend American Atheist magazine or one of the Skeptical Inquirer). this will keep you brain in the "On" position.

5) Start looking at colleges with active Atheist organizations. It will make you feel better to have something to which to look forward.
 

Voicing Your Opinion

Thoughout my life (or at least my high school days when I became better educated) I have always felt left out. I have felt like I have been unable to fully speak my mind due to the fact that......(gasp!) I am an evil, evil atheist. In high school I played football all four years. Before each game our entire team would gather into a large group and have a team prayer. This prayer would be offered by a father of one of the players who was some sort of priest, or minister, or witch doctor, or whatever he was. I always felt highly uncomfortable during these prayers as they blatantly went against what I believed. I did not want to make a fuss about it so I tried to act like I was praying by bowing my head when in actuality I was just vowing to try to play my best and "leave it on the field" which was my personal motto for football. I was trying to be a team player and keep everybody happy and unified. Nobody had a clue what I was doing or what my beliefs were.

Like all good things football came to an end and our graduation ceremony came around. At the graduation ceremony there was a "moment of silence" that lasted about 2 minutes in which we are all obviously expected to bow our heads and pray. I again just acted like I was part of the crowd and did as I was supposed to. Lowering my head and playing with the buttons on my gown for a few minutes. Making myself feel uncomfortable being ashamed and left out due to my beliefs. In front of so many people and my entire class of around 200 graduating seniors it was hard to be an individual. All of this compromising of my beliefs for the comfort of others (as if me being non-religious should in any way have anything to do with anybody but myself) left a strain on my conscience. I decided it was time to come out of the closet and let my thoughts and beliefs be known to at least my two best friends. Jokingly we held an AA (Atheists Anonymous) meeting where I stood up and said to them "Hello my name is Justin.....and I am an atheist." They took it well and since neither of them are deeply religious it didn't seem to effect them at all. A few months went by and people started talking around me about my beliefs and why I believed what I did. For the first time in my life I felt comfortable excepting and being proud in who I was and not having to cover anything up. I am in no way an active atheist (sorry Dave but we all have our short comings) but when asked I was very loud and argumentative when talking or debating about the existence of god. I was shocked to find out that more people were open to my beliefs then I had thought would be. Granted, I still got the "You are going to go to hell if you don't change you ways" type of statements (which are funny in their own right but I won't get into that right now) but all in all people just liked to argue with me in the hope that I will be "converted" and see the light of god or whatever.

Then it struck.....one day my best bud told me that me talking about being an atheist and letting people know about it made him feel uncomfortable. He felt that he was being excluded and discriminated against just by being associated with me and that (since he was always around me when I was in discussion about things) people thought he believed what I believed as well. He said that he would appreciate it if I would just keep my beliefs to myself and not tell anybody about them. He wanted me to "just act like [I] was religious so that people wouldn't argue with [me] so much and we would be accepted as part of the crowd".

I think you can see where my question is Dave. What should I do? This person is like a brother to me and yet he is asking me to do something that I don't want to do. I like who I am. I really want to make him feel comfortable around me and not think badly of me but I also want myself to feel comfortable and be able to speak my mind when somebody makes a statement that is counter to my beliefs. What does one do when confronted with sacrificing or compromising their beliefs for the comfort level of a dear friend? I am aware that I am dramatizing it by saying my beliefs will in some way be comrpomised because they won't be changed at all, but I think you get what I am saying.

Hello Justin,

Thanks for your letter. I understand your problem, and here's my input.

Your friend is a friend, and is not trying to convert you or squelch you. However, he is not an Atheist, and does not want the stigma associated with being one (as is his right). However, you Are an Atheist, and you have the right to say as you see fit.

The answer is actually very simple, and I do it all the time. You may have read that my wife is not an Atheist, and she also has similar feelings to your friend.

When anyone asks me about religion, I tell them the uncensored truth. All the time. Then, IN THE SAME CONVERSATION, I seque to my wife, who I explain is not an Atheist, and yet we get along so well despite our differences. I turn the awkward moment into a statement of tolerance, thereby making the intolerant feel bad. I ALWAYS do this, because it makes my Atheism less of a big deal and tolerance towards Atheists the subject of the conversation.

Suggest this to your friend. Explain to him that you can't lie or squelch your feelings, but you respect his comfort to an extreme, and you will make an effort to speak of his religious beliefs when you speak of your nonbelief. His reputation will become the "theists with the Atheist friend" -- which is true, and he should be able to handle that.

And, together, you can promote a little tolerance in an intolerant world.

Good Luck,

Dave Silverman
American Atheists

Mixed Relationships

  I'm a 21 year old college student from Georgia. I have been going out with my girlfriend now since we were both 16. I am an atheist and she is an Episcopalian. We have talked about getting married before but never have settled it out so that it can work. Of course we plan to have kids in the future and she wants their religious (or non-religious) future decided before we choose to have them. I feel that the kids should be let to choose for themsleves but then again you can ask a two-year-old to rationally do that. Some say let them be untouched by religion until teen ages and then let them choose, but my girlfriend says that wouldnt work because what if they die before then and are not baptised (or belive in god)...etc... they'll go to hell..etc. Well, there's that problem and then there's the marriage. I want to get married to this girl, and nothing will make me change my mind about this. But she wants, obviously, to get amrried in a church or at least by a priest, and then i said well, we can get it done by a judge. But then she said that wouldnt work because marriage is a sacred religious rite...etc. Well then i said fine we could have a priest do it, but then #1 that makes me look undecided about my beliefs, and #2 she would always know that the marriage was done in a religous way, which i do not belive in, and only to please her, therefore I would not think it as important as she does. Well all that is really getting heavy on our shoulders. I'm sure we are not the only people who've been in this situation and contacted y'all before so i ask for help. Please if there is anything you could say to us that would, if not resolve our troubles, lead us in that direction. What to do about marriage, and about kids. (oh and dont even think of saying kids w/o marriage... haha i've tried that one, don't work). But I know this for sure. I love her, and she loves me, and we want a future together, but we really need outside help before we go any further.

 Please, any help we would appreciate. Oh and if you are wondering why we are contacting you instead of going to a priest or a public counselor, is because we know priests are undoubtably super-biased, and we dont want to see a public counselor because there are fees which we dont really have the money to pay for right now, and there is also the fact that even though you all are atheists too, you have a secular way of thinking (at least thats what we get after reading your webpage). Thanks in advance for any help you can give us. If you need us to contact you for more information, whatever it may be, please feel free to do so and we will provide it. Good day.

Sincerely,
Dave

Hello Dave,

Thanks for your letter. You are in a tough situation and you are right to get help.

Mixed marriages can work, but they are a challenge. Not so much with the wedding itself, but with the children. You may agree to compromise, but you will have to deal with the consequences. For instance, if you and your wife agree that the kids will not go to a Christian school, but will go to CCD, you will still cringe at the CCD classes.

Of absolute importance is long and deeply honest discussion. Do not say what you want the other person to hear. Do not say you can handle CCD for your children if you cannot. She should follow the same rules.

If there is no overlap between what you both want, then you will both have to compromise. However, be aware that this agreement will be binding and not changable unless both parties agree.

For example, my wife is a believing Jew. We have a daughter who is three. My wife and I decided to expose our daughter to both ideals and let her choose. We also agreed to pick a religious sunday school for her to attend. Now that she;'s three, I feel the bile in my throat when she mentions God to my daughter. I am trying to get my wife to consent to a nonreligious sunday school, but she is under no oblication to concede -- we already have an agreement. If she says no, then I'm stuck with our deal.

You will need to commit yourselves to your deal. You will also need to commit yourselves to making sure the families each obey the deal as well.

Of highest importance is that you raise the children in a loving home secure in their parent's love. Don't hide your differences. Don't go to church even though you don't believe. Your kids will know you are lying and they will trust you less. Let them know that Mommy and Daddy disagree, and that's OK.

That's the secret for good kids.

Best of luck!

Dave Silverman

==========================

What is Death?

im an atheist since 12,(15 now) and im constantly harrassed every DAMN Day...the kids always think there kewl when they say..."so where do you go when you die"......and of course i say that well.....kill yourself and tell me what happens.....lol....anyway can you give me an answer to that question that dosent lead to more harrassment...i feel that i have to constantly represent the entire atheist community every day so please give me the answer that represents the feelings of the community ....a community i only find in your website .....which i thank for you having....I know you have court battles and protests to organize (which i hope to be a part of) so i hope you have time to answer me ....thanks bye. 

"When I die, I die, just like every other living thing in the universe. No fairy tales, just honesty and common sense. I would love to believe that all the good guys go to heaven, all the bad guys go to hell, and we all live happily ever after forever, but that is just fantasy. IN the real world, all living things die, so the only immortality you can ever achieve is through actions that have lasting effects, I try to make the world better every day, instead of looking forward to a nonexistant life after death"

If that doesn't work, have "animals" in your back pocket.

"Do you believe doggies and kitties go to heaven? How about really smart dolphins or monkeys? How about really dumb people? How about a person that is dumber than the smartest monkey?"

.
1. How do you feel about public buildings sucn as high school gyms being used for religous gatherings such as rallies and concerts?

No problem, provided the religion pays a going standard rate for the usage of the rooms. These rooms should be available for any reason, or none at all. It would be wrong to allow a church rally, but not a blood drive, and it would be wrong to charge one group, and not a church.

2. What is your position on a public high school band or choir giving a concert in a church?(This was recently an issue at my school).

Inappropriate. The high school band should not be made to give a concert of religious nature, as the band is likely to contain nonreligious kids. Even if they were all religious, it is also illegal to require a student to participate in any religious ritual.

 However, I think it would be OK if a band were to play for a church for a fee to raise money, as long as the band would charge any other organization the same money to perform. Also, the music must be secular.

3. How do you feel about school children singing Christmas carols and other sacred music in public school? 

First of all, no music is sacred. That being said, if you are talking about one student humming christmas carols to himself without disturbing others, that's fine. Otherwise, see the first paragraph of number 2


4. What about Christmas programs in public schools?

See number 2. public schools are for all kids, not just religious Christians. In order to include everyone, the school should remain neutral on the subject of religion.

5. Should elementary school classes celebrate holidays with such things as parties and decorations?

Specific holidays should be limited to nonreligious holidays. Holiday season parties are acceptable as long as all holidays are treated equally and none is given any preference (Christmas=Solstice=Chanukah=qwanzaa=new years)

6. Do you agree with student-organized, student-led prayer in school if it does not interfere with other students and/or classes?

Yes. Student-led prayer groups outside of class time are legal and fine with me. It is only when it interferes with other students, either by prohibiting movement (blocking doorways) or school-mandated moments of silence that we take issue. Also, it should be noted that all activities must be equal. Christians, Jews, Scientologists, Moonies, and Atheists should all have the exact same rights to gather. 

By now, you are seeing a sense of fair play that is a consistent theme.

7. Should attire that depicts religious sYmbols such as WWJD? T-shirts be allowed in school?

Dress codes need to be consistent. If WWJD tshirts are allowed, then Atheist, moonie, and scientologist shirts must also be allowed. Again, consistency and fairness.

8. How do you feel about Christmas carols and Christmas prgrams being aired on pulic TV and radio?

Public TV is actually not public. It is private, in that it is not owned or run by the government. As such, it should be guided by market demands, free of regulations. If I don't like to watch it, I can turn the channel. Religious broadcasts are protected by the First amendment and I would defend their right to broadcast.

NOTE; There are rumors of American Atheists efforts to ban such programming. They are false -- I promise. We in fact support everyone's right to free speech, even if we don't agree with what they are saying.

9. Has religion been erased from the public arena in ways not intended by the framers of the Constitution?

Quite the contrary. The framers made this country in a concentrated effort to be different from the English government and its state-church. They never envisioned the current entanglement of religious PACs in government, or god statements on our money and our pledge of allegiance (not added until the 1950s). Religion permeates our lives, whether we want it to or not (I CAN NOT work on christmas). In conclusion, religion and government were never intended to mix (hense the First Amendment -- it goes both ways, and only then is the theory consistent).
 

February 2000

I have an interesting situation for you. I grew up in a
Christian household, which is to say that I went to church and learned about
god and heaven and all that bit. When I was old enough to make up my own
mind, I did. Atheism just seems to make more sense. My wife is a christian,
however, and the subject (while tricky at times) has allowed for lots of
interesting conversation. Whenever it is an issue in our lives, like our
marraige, I just kind of go with the flow. I know how important it is for
her, and have no need to disillusion her. My problem is with our children. 
I have two lovely kids (a boy at 1 and a girl soon to be 3). My parents have
given me a hard time about the concept of infant damnation (that my kids
would go straight to hell if they died before being christened) My wife
didn't seem too worried about it so we let it pass. Something inside me says
that they should go to church as well. That they should be given the same
opportunity to make up thier own minds. But I also feel that sending them off to church is just like letting a perfect stranger try to brainwash my kids into believing
the biggest of all myths. I'm worried about making the wrong decision about
this, and more worried that I will drag it on until it no longer matters. 
What do you think.
 
 Jake
 
 Hello Jake,

   I am the mother of two children ages 6 and 11. I, of course, agree that
the idea of damnation is just plain silly.
   Regarding church attendance. I agree that our Atheist children would
benefit from the experience of attending various religious ceremonies. 
However, your children are too young.  At the ages of 1 and 3 they will only
get swept up in the ceremony, song, pretty building and social aspects of
church attendance.  They aren't going to learn anything intellectual. They
need to be a little older when you can explain to them what they are hearing
and what it means. 
  I do not suggest that they need "regular" church attendance either. They
need more time learning to live their lives as Atheists. They need every
opportunity to experience life without a reference to the supernatural. 
After years of knowing that they can live their lives without it, then you
can teach them what religious people think and do and compare it to what
Atheists think and do. 
  My children are not inclined to think in terms of gods or anything
supernatural. They have had a solid Atheist upbringing in the world of
reality. We talk about religion and I try to explain what religious people,
from as many different religions as I can, think and do.
  In about a month or two we will be publishing a book called "Living in
The Light" by Anne Stone. A wonderful book on rearing Atheist children. I
think you will love it. Check our web site in April for it. www.atheists.org
  If you have any more question don't hesitate to ask. I hope this is of
some help to you. Your children don't know how lucky they are. 

Sincerely,

Ellen Johnson, President
 

January 2000

Below is a letter we received from a high school student objecting to two of our platform issues: School prayer and Creationism teaching (both in public schools). We thought it was a good idea to answer this letter on the web, so everyone could see our responses. Also, because the letter addresses two issues, I will split the letter, answering the issues individually.

" I am 16 years old and a Christian in a public school. Now you say what is the point of a moment of silence. I think a moment of silence is a plus for anyone. Some people just may want to stand there and stare around the classroom, but others might want to bow their heads and pray to their God that they believe in. I think that is very ignorant and narrow minded. Even though you may not believe in a God, you still should hold respect for those who do. As a Christian, I do not judge others by what they believe in. I have several friends that are atheists, and I don't mind. WE both discuss what we believe. I think you need to start showing a little bit more respect for everyone else in this nation. "

The moment of silence idea is a method to inject forced prayer into the classroom. We all know the largest force in drug use is peer pressure, and this is the reason for school prayer efforts like this one. To stop class (for everyone), make everyone stand, and give them a choice between praying or "standing there and staring around the classroom" is far from fair for those who don't wish to pray in a group. Who would want to stand around and stare at their fellow students praying? 

This is especially true where those not praying would be immediately visible to their peers. Suddenly, the non-praying students are given a choice: be open about their choice not to pray, or to pray against their will. Silence is no longer an option; they must either pray or be "outed" as a minority. Most kids would do anything rather than open themselves up for being an outcast, and in this case it means praying - against their will. There is nothing optional about it, and this is wrong.

The schools are there for everyone (not just religious kids), and their purpose is to teach, not preach or single out nonreligious kids. We all know that a moment of silence is just a spoken word away from sponsored prayer, and we all know that it's wrong to force religion on kids who don't want it, against the wills of the parents.

Is this inconsiderate? Let's think about that. Among all the major religions, none of them require group prayer. They all say God can read your thoughts, and that every prayer is heard. Furthermore, Christianity speaks directly against public prayer in Matthew 15.

So, none of the religions need organized prayer for students; it is never required. Today, many students bring their bibles to school and pray to themselves whenever they so choose, without forcing their beliefs on others or making others stop doing what they wish and "stand looking around the room" while they pray.

I suggest you ask your Atheist friends if they wouldn't mind standing silently and staring at the walls every day, just so you could pray (which you do anyway).

In summary, the religious people don't need it, the nonreligious people don't want it, and the only thing it would give us over what we have today is more division in classrooms and yes, a few kids praying against their will. 

So no, I don't think WE are the ones being inconsiderate at all. Indeed, it is those who would push their religion on other people who are the ones guilty of the very crimes of which they accuse us. A little respect FOR other people might be a nice thought!

"At our youth group on Wednesday, we talked about evolution vs. creation. And my science teacher from last year said that Evolution is supposed to be taught as critical thinking. And if evolution can be taught as critical thinking, then so can Creation. I think people should hear both sides of the controversy."

Creationism and critical thinking are mutually exclusive. I would wholeheartedly support any teaching of creationism in public school if it was given the scrutiny and critical though that is afforded scientific theory. Science is supposed to teach the scientific process, which takes a theory, supports it with evidence, and proves or disproves the theory. Creationism cannot be supported with any evidence at all. I mean NONE. Conversely, there is a mountain of evidence against Creationism, and even more supporting darwinistic evolution. Therefore, to teach Genesis in an arena reserved for critical thinking is counter-intuitive.

Furthermore, this is not a "both sides" situation, because there is more than one religion out there, all of which have their own "theories" of how the world began, and all of those theories having the exact same amount of evidence (none). Who are YOU to say that the Jewish version of Creation has more standing than the Shintoistic, Norse, or Greek mythologies? They are, after all, theories, right? Maybe we should teach all of them in science class.

Perhaps as well, we should be required to teach evolution in churches, so "all sides" of this controversy can be taught to more people. After all, if the church's argument is that people should be informed, then shouldn't the church practice what it preaches? If we have no place to teach only scientific principles, then why should they have a haven for godspeak?

Or maybe, just maybe, science class should be reserved for science, and church for religion. If religion doesn't like the fact that science is proving their "theories" wrong, maybe they should take the hint and change their theories, instead of trying to mute science or squelch its teachings.

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