speak my mind," said Minnesota Gov. Jesse Ventura yesterday on the NBC program "Meet The Press." "If it offends some people, well, there's not much I can do about that. But I'm going to be honest. I'm going to continue to speak my mind, and that's who I am..."

   Ventura was responding to a tidal wave of criticism from religious and political leaders in response to comments he made in a Playboy Magazine interview hitting the streets today. Ventura held forth on a range of topics, including religion. He told Playboy, "organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business."

   It was typical Ventura, and it raised eyebrows. Inside of his own Reform Party movement, some former leaders demanded that he resign as governor of Minnesota. His remarks about religion also came in for target practice at last weekend's Christian Coalition "Road to Victory" conference, where speakers took turns describing the wrestler-turned-politician as a "bigot" and "blasphemer." Presidential hopeful Gary Bauer thundered, "Jesse, you should have met Cassie Bernall...," referring to the slain Columbine High School victim who has been described as a "martyr" for her Christian faith for telling her killer that she believed in god. Pat Robertson was more blunt, declaring that Ventura was "off his rocker." House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) said he was "shocked and chagrined," and Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-Miss.) asked his Coalition audience, "Can you believe a governor of a state in America would say such an insensitive, bigoted thing?"

   Ventura's remarks became part of another story, too, involving a controversial art exhibition in New York City. There, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani is threatening to close down the Brooklyn Museum of Art for showing a controversial exhibition known as "Sensations," which includes a painting of the Virgin Mary decorated with elephant dung and pictures of naked buttocks. Both stories characterize an emergent theme being heard increasingly, that religious sensibilities and belief -- especially that of the Roman Catholic Church -- are under attack.

   But it's Ventura who is really under attack, and remarks made by the governor in yesterday's "Meet The Press" interview could raise confusion about where he really stands.

   NBC host Tim Russert opened the questioning:

MR. RUSSERT: Let me show you and our viewers some of the things you said in the interview and give you a chance to explain exactly what you meant. The first was religion, and you said, Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people s business. You went on to say, The religious right wants to tell people how to live.

   Governor, as you know, 65 percent of the people in your state, some three million, are members of organized religion. Do you believe that priests and nuns and ministers and rabbis are really could be considered weak-minded people ?

GOV. VENTURA: No, I don t, not necessarily. And being weak-minded is not necessarily a detriment, Tim. It just means that you have a weakness and, therefore, you go to organized religion to help strengthen yourself. That s the context in which I talked about it. And for those people, it s OK. I was speaking very much of my own viewpoint and my own life experiences and things that I ve seen. Like when I was overseas in the military, I had a dear friend who lived in a very impoverished country who was sticking a large amount of money in an envelope. And I asked him what it was for, and he said, Well, I have to pay to have my nephew baptized. And I said, Well, excuse me. I remember John doing it for free in the river. Why do you have to pay? And he said, If you don t pay, you don t get baptized. And that bothered me greatly because I see many cases of organized religion just simply going out and becoming a moneymaking machine and a business like any other business, the business of selling religion and religious beliefs.

MR. RUSSERT: Who, in particular, troubles you with that?

GOV. VENTURA: No one in particular. I just believe that there's honesty and integrity that has to happen and I believe that if you look at the Jesus Christ that I know, he hung out with the worst people that there was.

MR. RUSSERT: Do you believe in God?

GOV. VENTURA: Absolutely.

MR. RUSSERT: Do you consider yourself a Christian?

GOV. VENTURA: Yes, but I don t believe necessarily that I need a church to go to. I can go my religious beliefs can be by a lake, they can be on a hill, they can be in the solitude of my own office. And I believe that there s no set example of what people s beliefs should be.

MR. RUSSERT: But do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior?

GOV. VENTURA: Yeah, according to, you know, the religious beliefs that I have.

MR. RUSSERT: One of the things you said that was interesting to me, I haven t caused any wars. Has religion? You do believe that organized religion has caused wars?

GOV. VENTURA: Absolutely. What s happened in Ireland for years and years and years. That s they re not fighting over potatoes up there.

   It's certainly not the Jesse Ventura people remember from last year's hard-fought campaign in Minnesota. Or is it? Ventura identified himself as "an atheist" in conversation with people at an information booth advancing his candidacy. Once in office, he made constant reference to his support of the separation of church and state, and he put it into practice. He was the only governor who refused to grant an official proclamation of support for last year's National Day of Prayer event.

   So, is Ventura backtracking, or at least trying to recover from political fallout from his Playboy interview remarks?

   ¶    A poll by the Minneapolis Star Tribune newspaper shows that approval for Ventura has dropped in the state from a record-high of 73% to 54%. The survey was conducted from Friday evening to Sunday evening, and sampled 624 adults. "A lopsided majority, 75 percent, said they disagreed with Ventura's most incendiary quote in the Playboy interview, that 'organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people,' " noted today's edition. Another way of looking at the statistics -- fully 25% of those surveyed agreed with Ventura's initial statement.

   Sixty-eight percent say the governor should "use better judgment about when to keep his opinions to himself." And "Almost three out of five Minnesotans say they don't think the governor is a good role model..."

   ¶   If public support is solidly against Ventura, though, local religious leaders seem to be taking no chances. Ventura's wife, a practicing Lutheran, left church yesterday and told a bevy of reporters, "I am not ashamed of my husband -- ever."

   But the church's pastor, Rev. Steven Briel, declared that Gov. Ventura's remarks "have been very hard on our congregation." He claims to have spoken to Jesse Ventura on Saturday, and said that the governor apologized for "any damage he caused us as a congregation."

   The Star Tribune noted, "Other Twin Cities religious leaders also made Ventura-related remarks to their congregations on Sunday."

   Another Lutheran preacher declared, "It's not about religion, Governor Ventura. It's about faith, and being connected to a community that gives life." A Baptist minister told his flock, "As I look out over this congregation this morning, I don't see a bunch of weak people who need religion as a crutch." And Rev. Roger Thompson of the Berean Baptist Church preached: "It's great to be together with a lot of weak-minded people who find strength in numbers and who use religion as a crutch. If we are weak, it's because we ought to be, and we're here because we need the strength of God in our lives."

   Even Sen. Paul Wellstone (D-Minn.) joined in the exchange, when he spoke yesterday at Westminster Presbyterian Church in Minneapolis. He told the congregation, "The religious community's voice in the state of Minnesota is terribly important. It is not weakness of mind to be your brother's keeper. It is not weakness of mind to love your neighbor or to try to love your neighbor as yourself."

   Some ministers say that they and their congregations were "hurt" by Ventura's remarks in Playboy, and subsequent statements made by the governor in a press conference. On Thursday, for instance, Ventura declared: "I haven't started any wars throughout history. Has religion?"

   It wasn't just from the pulpits, either, that Ventura was taking hits. Yesterday's round of talking-heads programming included salvos against the controversial governor, along with segues into the Giuliani flap in New York. "The McLaughlin Group" debated the Ventura issue, and most panelists agreed that Ventura had stumbled badly. Flush-faced host McLaughlin tried to link the New York art story with Ventura, asking: "What would happen if a painting depicted a black or Muslim figure in this way?" Another panelist suggested that "bashing Catholics" and insulting religion was the "last taboo" in America people were not speaking out against, but guest Eleanor Clift (Contributing Editor of Newsweek) spoke up saying, "Try being an atheist in America!"

   Last evening, American Atheist Magazine and Positive Atheism Magazine launched an on-line campaign to express support for Gov. Ventura. Ed Gauci, AA webmaster, said early this evening that nearly two hundred letters had already been sent from the web site page (http://www.americanatheist.org). Throughout today, several readers sent us e-mails noting Ventura's back-peddling on the "Meet The Press" program.

   "My guess is that Jesse is trying to CYA ("cover your ass") so as not to offend too many of his constituents," declared American Atheists Internet Representative Margie Wait. "Whether Jesse Ventura is an atheist or not," she continued, "he does support the absolute separation of church and state. We should show our appreciation for his firm stand on that issue."

   "As far as I'm concerned, his position on state-church separation is what's important," said Ed Gauci.

   When asked if he wanted to continue the support campaign for Ventura, Positive Atheism editor Cliff Walked declared, "Of course! Even if Ventura turns out to be a devout Christian, what he is catching flak for is what we catch flak for every day of our lives."

   "The organized religions have the upper hand, but cannot burn us at the stake in America in the 1990s," Walker noted. "They are doing the only thing they have left available to them: ruining our reputations and our careers, and silencing us as effectively as if they could still burn us. If we remain silent and do not take some risks, the days of peat and faggot could conceivably return."

   Walker agreed with sentiments voiced by Wait, Gauci and others. "This is the issue (state-church separation) regardless of whether Ventura is a Christian."

   American Atheist National Spokesperson Ron Barrier took NBC commentator Tim Russert to task, though, for his questions yesterday on "Meet The Press."

   "I consider it inappropriate for Mr. Russert or anyone else to ask any official, including Gov. Ventura, whether he believes in a god, because that should have no bearing on how good a job someone does or does not do in an office of public trust." Barrier suggested that Ventura "is trying to maintain a skeptical veneer, but still play into the hands of those constituents who are religious and who voted him into office." He added, though, that Ventura's remarks "could have been taken out of context."

   Phone calls to Gov. Ventura's press secretary, John Wodele , were not returned.

   Events and statements by Gov. Ventura in coming days, or a clear indication from his press office, may cast further light on the question of whether the controversial Reform Party leader is indeed an atheist. He is certainly a staunch advocate of the separation of church and state; and it is significant that there is such an outcry over his statements. For now, the campaign to support Jesse Ventura continues, and the web page remains open.

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