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F*ck a bunch of Christmas, here's some real news:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/30/health/main1087267.shtml

Onward Christian solders!!!!

Ok, that trackback above was me. Believe it or not, that was the first time I've ever "tracked-back".
I had to try it out, and this was a good reason to do it.
:-)

this is like the miss/mrs/ms thing or the spokesman/spokesperson thing and all similar word plays. initial dander up and then in a year or two no big deal.

i agree with dave that if this were the only vestige of xtianity that threatens us we would be in hog heaven. it's small potatoes to me.
i've been using happy holidays and holiday office party at least since the turn of the century and no one has complained (to my face anyway)about it.

what are the vestiges of xtianity that threaten you? I have some of my own ideas, but it seems like a halfway decent question to throw out there.

Does anyone think there as an even BIGGER issue than religion here, with "xmas vs. holidays".

I think that it is less about religion, and more about being globally aware and not so ethnocentric and self-righteous. Americans have a bad rap for our lack of vision past our own backyards, and this is a typical example of why.

While we do need to lighten up, we also need to become more knowledgeable and appreciative of the many cultures inhabiting this world, and what better place to start than with a holiday greeting.

So Happy Holidays, one and all!

The 'anti-Christmas' hype is really just a way for the right wing to stir up their base and vilify the rest of America. It's interesting how we automatically get blamed for the whole Happy Holidays 'controversy.' I mean, if Walmart is doing it then there must be something else going on (as there are hardly enough avowed atheists in this country to make a dent in Walmart's policies.)

I think our country is just struggling to cope with an ever increasing amount of diversity. The culture is changing - there really isn't anything traditionalists (or secularists for that matter) can do about it. What are they going to do, kick all the new people out? Make them all go to the same kind of church? I think that last question is the real issue we're all talking about - Forced conformity.

"It also includes a passage from the Old Testament Book of Psalms."

Somehow this seems way worse than saying "Merry Christmas". Christmas is as much a secular holiday as it is religious. But a Bible verse? That's overtly theocratic.

spandrrs asked
"what are the vestiges of xtianity that threaten you?

first let me say that there are a number of xtians that practice true xtianity (love and caring of their fellow man) without the in your face (like accept jc as your saviour or fry in hell attitude)and for these I have great respect and do not view as a threat to myself or other non-xtians.

But there are too many RR fanatics in high places for my comfort. for example.... right here in hillsborough county, florida we have a few county commissioners that, if they had their way, (and they are coming closer all the time) would proclaim christianity as the official belief system of all county residents. if you didn't like it your choice would be to cave in or move out. they are really no differnt than the gestapo as far as their intolerance of those of differing opinions and life styles. The scary part is that they really believe that they must mankind from all the depravity of those who disagree with their beliefs.

on a national level tom delay is one of these people, bushie also is on a personal level but seems to have enough political sense to keep it in check publicly. in the right places and in numbers peolple like this are a threat to my freedom of "lifestyle". The liberals and their PC correctness have already infringed uncomfortably into my "lifestyle" but not with the same level of hostility that i sense from the RR.

the push for ID as science is a "threat" to those already alive with inquiring minds but more importantly to the young and unborn future inquiring minds. If the RR had their way and we all collectively accepted or were forced to accept that heretofore all scientific unknowns are attributable to an "intelligent creator" then where does that leave the quest for a cancer cure, aids cure, or any other medical advancement that we hope for.

the threat of roe v wade reversal is real. to me this landmark ruling ghave choice to a woman based on her internal moral compass and took it out of the hands of religion. that stands as one of the single modern confrimations of separation of church and state. the terri schiavo debacle again showed how the xtian religion views personal issues. they want to tell you what to do based on THEIR morals without compromise. these attitudes are a threat to me and those that think as i do. it isn't an everyday threat but a threat none the less and one that could engulf me at a moment of personal pain and anguish not of my choosing. ask michael schiavo how much help the RR was to him in his time of need.

flanonblvr
can you expand what you mean by

The liberals and their PC correctness have already infringed uncomfortably into my "lifestyle" but not with the same level of hostility that i sense from the RR

I'm just trying to get a better sense of how people understand liberal and conservative and what you may think is a good balance. I don't want to pry into your personal life, just get any explanation you're comfortable with.

one example...i've been a manager for over 25 years. i am naturally very alturistic and empathic with my co-workers. it has been part of my success as a manager.years ago i might give a secretary(now admin asistant) a quick neck rub at her desk if the typing load was heavy that day, or compliment how she looked. today i don't dare touch a female co-worker except in the event of a life threatening situation and i no longer comment on how they look or if they have lost weight or anything that may be viewed as sexist.

this is a all pure product of PC that i resent because it has caused me to changed my "lifestyle" for the worse as far as i am concerned. this PC crap was pushed by the liberals in the name of equality in the workplace. it has made many male managers behave more like robots than humans and i resent the hell out of it. as a matter of fact i am much more comforting to a needy male co-worker in today's environment. again totally contrary to natural instinct.

Anyone want to bet how many posts it will take before an argument breaks out?

But back on the post, they could have done worse. I mean, only one quote from Psalms. Could've been four or five.

Speaking of Christmas c_ards...
I got my second Holiday c_ard today. The first was from my chiropractor. Today's was from none other than Ellen Johnson and American Atheists. A pretty Solstice Greetings c_ard, with an AA imprinted ball-point pen.
The c_ard looks personally signed, or else a very good rubber stamp!

Thanks Ellen and AA! Happy Solstice to you too! :)

You get personally signed Solstice cards and a free pen? Shit, maybe I should join.

this PC crap was pushed by the liberals in the name of equality in the workplace.

Um... not to start a debate on this or anything, but I do believe it was pushed by women. The liberals just happened to take notice.

I do know how you feel, though. It took a lot a long, heated conversations with my sister, my wife and other close female friends before I really began to understand their perspective. Oh, and constantly being hit on by gay men kinda helped in my understanding as well LOL. Men are often a bit too forward, but then it's kinda funny when women complain of men not being forward enough. Paradox!

ref: Rainbow's paradox...

I would all women to have an X or O tattooed on their foreheads.

Gentleman that I am, I opened the door for a woman as I entered the bank, only to be accused of being a chauvinist. Having learned my lesson, as I later left the bank, I was scolded by another woman for not holding the door for her. “What kind of a gentleman are you?”

Solution: Woman who are feminists will have an X tattooed on their foreheads. You will open your own doors. Those with big Os on your heads can expect the lady-gentleman treatment.

After 50 years of fundamentalism, including a stint with the Moral Majority (late 70s) and 12 years pastoring an evangelical church, I've learned the driving force within the Religious Right — evangelicalism inclusively — can be summarized in a single word: egomania.

Granted, there are decent people within the Christian community, but self-serving egomaniacs proliferate in the religious environment.

What I find refreshing about the atheist community is not the absence of arrogance, but the absence of pretense.

Make sense?

I understand the need to remain topical, but come on folks, we need to worry about important things. Xmas v. Holiday is a small symptom of a major problem --

the forced Christianization of America. Let's work the cause, not the symptom.

Forced? All I've read so far is the ebb and flow of morality throughout our country.

Someone please give an example of "Forced Christianization".

Are we saying that an elected official or government worker is denied one of their 5 rights guaranteed within the 1st amendment?
What right is next?

This thread proves my point that the proclamations made by Washington and Lincoln would never have been accepted if America was the way some on this board attempt to paint it.
For that matter Christmas would never have been declared a National Holiday in the 1880's if America was truely a secular nation.

I think some of what r4d states is correct. We are becoming more diverse and that's what we are struggling with.

It would be great to see a neutral site as this also complain about a democrat's religious views.

It would be great to see a neutral site as this also complain about a democrat's religious views.

You're assuming liberal Democrats, such "Rev" Jesse Jackson, are authentic Christians. To the contrary. It's understood that liberal theologians — nealy always Democrats — view their ecclesiastical setting in a social context.

To flesh that out a bit...

I've yet to see the atheists on this site deny the Christian heritage of our nation, though the assumption that the establishment clause is, somehow, a "separation" clause.

The faulty logic goes like this:
First, religious expression constitutes endorsement and endorsement constitutes establishment.

It's a stretch.

In my humble opinion, imposing one's religious views on others may be bad manners, but it's still contitutionally free speech and has nothing to do with the establishment clause.

Seeker, I'm not so convinced that our nation has a Christian heritage. I think we've discussed the narrow and wide view of heritage in prior posts. I don't think it's a given, but let's assume you are correct for this discussion.

I'm not so concerned about the de jure aspects seperation clause, I'm more concerned about the de facto results. It's not just bad manners to IMPOSE religious views on others, it's dangerous. I think impose is the key word there. I think everyone should have the right to choose their own path and change paths whenever they like. Once imposition begins, true freedom is gone and that's when the good aspects (like freedom) of our nation's heritage are in jeopardy. I think we need to clarify what you mean by impose. That can span quite a range from simply allowing people to do things like say "Merry Christmas" all the way to the other end where my wife is wearing a burka (or forced to wear a cross).

Seeker, flanonblvr,
Off topic, but....on feminism....while I consider myself to be a feminist, I am in no way offended by a guy opening the door for me. It's actually a pretty common practice here in the South. I just think it's a polite thing to do for anyone, male or female. I hold the door all the time for folks. And I always thank someone for holding the door for me. I would never criticize someone for simply showing good manners. That kind of radical feminism is not for me.

Touching in the workplace....I'm a little iffy on that one. If it's a good-natured pat and can in no way be construed as a caress, then fine, if the person is comfortable with it. My pet peeve is the comments with sexual innuendos. Example: the most openly Christian man in my office (church deacon, fish on car, etc.) He came by my office one day when I was bending over getting a file out of a bottom drawer, stuck his head in the door and said he enjoyed the view. Then one day I accidentally ran into him in the hallway, I apologized and said excuse me, and he said, "That's okay, I enjoyed it, let's do it again." Mostly harmless, childish stuff but annoying nonetheless.

believe that I have been suffering from depression and anxiety for most of my life. I've had a short fuse and violent streaks.

I've really only been seeking treatment from my medical doctor for 3 years and from a counselor for the last few months.

The counseling has seemed to help me channel my anger and also helped me to see that it is okay to make mistakes.

One of my favorite quotes from George Carlin is "fascism won't arive in the US wearing brown shirts goose stepping down the street... it will show up with people wearing smiley face hats"

I'm not saying in any way that you're advocating fascism in any way seeker, I'm just taking a thought to a hyperbolic end.

phreedm,
One example that occurs to me of "Forced Christianization" is the attempt to get ID/Creationism taught in public schools alongside evolution. The fact that it is seriously considered and there are actual court cases about it is ludicrous.

Forced Christianization:The Protestant 10 C monument at the Austin Capitol and General Attorney of TX Abbott saying it had a secular purpose and
http://ffrf.org/news/2000/bush.html

Now on topic, "xmas vs. holidays". I tend to agree with DiArtemis and rainbows. I think Caucasian Americans, (I'm one) especially Christian protestants, have had it their own arrogant way and lived inside their little bubble for so long, they cannot accept the diversity in the U.S. today. It's been happening for a long time, and they've known it, thus the development of the extreme Christian Right to spread hatred and intolerance of everything "different" from how they think the world should be. That's why they always yammer on about the so-called "good old days" of the pre-1960's. They are losing control and they know it, but they're not intending to give it up easily.

Seeker,

What I find refreshing about the atheist community is not the absence of arrogance, but the absence of pretense.

Make sense?

It does make sense to me. Atheists typically are open to examining points of view and criticizing their shortcomings. By virtue of not holding a positive position they are less susceptible to falling victim to pretense.

I like the way you think and express yourself.

Forced Xianity:

Alabama is trying to put "In God we trust" on all their licence plates.

http://www.al.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-17/1133069086103490.xml&storylist=alabamanews

HeatheNZ:
South Carolina already has optional, or vanity, plates with "In God We Trust" on them. A guy I work with just moved here from SC and has one.

Peach wrote "Caucasian Americans, (I'm one)"...

As a travel agent I would love to visit the honky homeland of Caucasia but I can't find it on any maps! Help! :-)

Did you know that the term "Caucasian" in reference to Europeans and European-Americans originated with an unscientific view from an anthropologist that "white" people originated in the Caucus Mountains of Russia. I HATE this term and always point out the origin whenever someone uses it.
If everyone else can have their continent of origin as a prefix to "-American" why can't I? We have African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Native-Americans, Latino (Latin)-Americans but European-American seems to be a politically incorrect term. Why? My family heritage is from Great Britain and the Netherlands and although I am very pale I'm not really "white".
Sorry to stray off topic...
Alex.

Peach,

I have no issue with it being voluntary, but from what I read, Alabama is trying to make it universal (except for a few exceptions).

I doubt they'd let me change mine to 'No God in which to Trust"

Alex,
My husband and I argue about (blank)-Americans all the time. I know the origin of Caucasian, it's just still the term used to distinguish race sometimes on paperwork, and like other slightly out-dated words or phrases, sometimes it's hard to get out of the habit of saying it (like I still say "bless you" when someone sneezes...can't seem to help it!). Probably could have just said "WHITE". But like you say, that's not quite true either. My hubby thinks I'm way too PC....he calls all Latin Americans "Mexicans", and all Asian-Americans "Orientals". I think ethnic diversity and cultural heritage are wonderful things, but it does get to be a bit confusing sometimes. :o)

OT, but check this out -

1- Go to www.google.com
2- Type in "Failure", without the quotes
3- Hit "I'm feeling Lucky"

:-)

CassandraCox,

Loved it.

Alex
I'm with you. I think I should feel very insulted that people can't look at me and know that I'm a German-Welsh-English-with maybe some Yiddish that Grandma was hiding from somewhere-American, and just call me that, instead of Caucasian, or "whitey".

This PC stuff is all BS. Who was the last African-American born in Africa? If you're born here, you're American.
It's way past time people should still be crying about what their skin color is called.

HeatheNZ,
Poor Alabama. I guess SC's move to make their "God" thing a vanity plate was a smart one....satisfies the majority while still keeping the "official" plate secular.

I also had no idea there was a motion in Alabama to have "In God We Trust" on school walls. Must have slept through that.

Cassandra, it use to come up with Bush when you clicked on google after entering failure. My conservate buddy was humble enough to tell me about it.

Peach:

I am in no way offended by a guy opening the door for me.

Well, I find your post very interesting, in a # of aspects.
1st & foremost, being raised Irish & a gentleman, it's habit for me to open a door. There IS a perk to it, as I like to look at...well, you can guess the rest.

From my limited knowledge, it's mostly Americans who have a '3 foot rule' for space. IOWs, inside that, it's intimate or hostile. Of course, that varies from state to state.

This is because there's so MUCH space in America. My TC teacher always told these great stories about his junkets to China. People are so crammed in & hemmed in, that there will be people (in a restaurant) standing right next to you, watching you eat, waiting for your table. He always finds it relaxing to return to the US: so much space, so much quieter here.

I think some of it's the puritan ethic, as well. We're SO hung up on being touched by strangers. Of course there's a huge difference between the casual brush, the pat on the bicep, taking the elbow, etc. as opposed to the hinted innuendo of intimacy. Not minimalizing here, just observing.

& of course, the aspect of violence is far higher in the US than other places.

I also understand (& will take correction in this, as in other matters), that the Europeans find many of our mannerisms somewhat..amusing. The efforts to legislate human behavior. What's politically incorrect here is shrugged off in other countries.

Not that leering, or intimate touching gestures are acceptable: again, not minimalizing here. What that fellow did wasn't cool at all, given the current clime. Most men need to be told such behavior is unappreciated (TBT, in my far-flung youth, I had to be informed of it: since, I've been a gentleman, to the best of my abilities). A lot of guys (especially young 1's) will take silence as assent. You should speak up, albeit diplomatically as possible. Testosterone sometimes blocks empathy.

Just some thoughts, is all.

alex, karen:
Words only have the power you give them.

Karen, Alex,
I agree that we should all consider ourselves simply "Americans" with no prefix. It would be much simpler. And to many people, it doesn't matter.

However, that said, cultural heritage is important to a lot of people and I try to respect that, within reason.

One of the (few) things my husband says that I agree with is that sometimes it seems as if we're the "United States of the Offended." Instead of pulling together to accomplish common goals, each "group" is offended by what another group is doing or saying. Sometimes those issues are important and need to be dealt with, but many times they are of no importance whatsoever, in the big scheme of things.

Forced Chirstianity...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=572&ncid=572&e=4&u=/nm/20051130/lf_nm/life_bible_dc_1

Not directly - but pretty close.

And a somewhat unrelated story, but in my book, still forced Xianity...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=572&ncid=572&e=4&u=/nm/20051130/lf_nm/life_bible_dc_1

Oops, the first link should have been this...

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481

Peach
Tell your husband I love his "United States of the Offended!" So appropriate!
Other countries don't have this problem. There are no African-French, Asian-Canadians, Latin-Australians. What do they do when filling oout paperwork? Anybody know?

I'm all for respecting people. It just gets confusing when sometimes one is supposed to be colorblind and other times the race card is thrown.

RA
Words do indeed have the power we give them. I was mostly being facetious, but there is an element of reality in my words. It's certainly not an issue to get all worked up about. If that was life's big issue, what a wuunerful world, ey?

Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays? Couldn't matter less to me.

But, I will say that putting a bible verse on a Christmas Card—paid for with tax dollars (I'm assuming the President didn't pay for the cards out of his own wallet)—does bother me a bit.

Cassandra-

"1- Go to www.google.com
2- Type in "Failure", without the quotes
3- Hit "I'm feeling Lucky""

That was great!

DvanW
Yeah...Just WHO gets these Xmas cards we paid for? I certainly don't get one.

Hey, I didn't get one either! I guess Bush figures there is no point in proselytizing to us.

I meant "no point in trying to proselytize us".

karen,

If you're born here, you're American.

Thank you. Ahh if it were only that simple. In time it will be through natural miscegenation (very prevalent here in California), but for now I feel both you and RA are correct. No simple answer.

Did you know that the term "Caucasian" in reference to Europeans and European-Americans originated with an unscientific view from an anthropologist that "white" people originated in the Caucus Mountains of Russia. I HATE this term and always point out the origin whenever someone uses it.

I have a similar beef with being called "Asian". Does anyone here know why "oriental" was switched to "Asian" 10 years ago? Everyone knew what "oriental" meant, and I don't remember hearing anyone complain. What the hell? "Oriental" comes from the latin word for "rise" because the sun rises in the East. Why is that offensive? We were East of the people who needed a word to describe us. Seems reasonable to me. Is it any more offensive than the term "chop sticks", which comes from the derogetory slur "chop chop"? Plus, there are white people in Asia. India is in Asia, yet you never hear an Indian or Russian person described as "Asian". All I want to know is who complained. We're just as underrepresented in the media as other minorities and we get completely screwed by affirmative action, but the only thing we've ever complained about it being called "oriental"? I don't mind when people assume I'm good at math (because I am), but when someone calls me "Asian", it always bugs me a little.

reluctant,
Interesting observation about American vs. global customs regarding personal space, etc. I have a friend who spent two years in Italy attending a university there. She said it was so hard for her to get accustomed to how affectionate they are, and now she misses it. She wants to move back someday.

And you're probably right on the work guy, I need to say something. Lately I've just been trying to avoid him. :o)

JustinW -

Very interesting... I just heard this being discussed on the radio.

What about african-american? I hate that term and never use it. My African friend hated it too (she didn't like to be grouped with the american blacks)... and so did my Jamaican friend (who obviously isn't african at all).

JustinW,
I love reading all these opinions on the "---American" issues. I am learning so much about different perspectives! And thanks, I had no idea where the term "chop sticks" came from. Don't know when the "Asian" vs "Oriental" thing started. I know we had an ISO auditor here at work last year who was of Chinese descent and became very upset when someone called him "Oriental". He gave the guy a lecture about it. I guess it just depends upon the person and how laid-back they are about it. I have a guy friend who is with the North Ga Archeological Society and who is half-Cherokee, and he feels the same way about "Native American" as you do about "Asian". He says being called an "Indian" really doesn't bother him. He also says he doesn't understand why others are upset by, say, the "tomahawk chop" of the Braves or Seminoles, because that doesn't bother him either, but some are highly offended by it. He would rather concentrate on proper perception of history and other issues than worry about a label, he says.

Justin

I have a similar beef with being called "Asian"

Thanks for mentioning that. I have been training myself to say "Asian" for the last several years becasue I thought "oriental" was offensive.
Oriental seems to be more inclusive to me. I'll try to go back to that word now. :/

While we're labeling ourselves, can I have a tattoo on my forehead that shows that my descendants never owned or traded in slaves/ My family were so poor, they were probably indentured servants. I get tired sometimes of being accused of antiquated crimes committed by other people who had my skin coloring.

Flanonblvr
This is kinda late, but I'm wondering if you ever gave a male employee a neck rub.

The thing when dealing with a segment of the populace as defined by the color of their skin is that we tend to forget that every individual in that group is unique.

Some don't like the "origin"-american, some do because they feel it shows sensibility, and others couldn't care less.

Someone asked how other did outside the states. In Canada you will never hear "origin"-canadian. If for example there is a police warrent out for someone, they will say "35 yo male of asian origin" but skin color is only mentionned when necessary to help identify a criminal on the loose.

Let's say a babysitter of Puerto-Rican origin was arrested for hittign a baby she was taking care of, the news article will be:
"babysitter arrested on allegations of mistreatment". In this case the origin of the person is not necessary so it is not even mentionned.

Peach, Justin,

I know we had an ISO auditor here at work last year who was of Chinese descent and became very upset when someone called him "Oriental".

Oh, sh*t. Now what do I say?
PC is IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

sword
If you fill out a job application, or forms for school, or any such paperwork, how do they handle the race codes? How about on drivers' licenses?

No Christmas.
No Holidays.

Happy Solstice. (everyone steals from the pagans)

Karen,
I think he was already annoyed at us as a whole because some areas were accruing so many non-conformances, and this just sort of sent him around the bend.

But you're right, I think PC is impossible.

Totally off topic but I just had to share,

Project Pterosaur (r-40, you might like!)

Mission Statement

The goal of Project Pterosaur is to mount an expedition to locate and bring back to the United States living specimens of pterosaurs

for the reason of

Support Creation Theory by showing the incorrectness of the philosophy of Evolutionism.
Educate the population about Creation Science.
Create excitement about Creation and the Bible in the public

http://objectiveministries.org/creation/projectpterosaur.html

mxracer
Why, oh why, won't they please go after these?!?!?!

# Velociraptors: Today terrorize the goat herders of Puerto Rico and are rumored to guard the remains of the Ark. They have become vicious since the Fall as the result of the effects of genetic entropy, making them too dangerous for the sort of interactive public experience we have in mind.

HEH HEH HEH.
Christians! See how your tithings are being spent?!

mxracer,
Isn't "objective ministries" an oxymoron? :o)

Now, I'm off to my doctor to have my blood pressure checked. And my doctor is from.....Japan! So maybe I'll ask her what her take is on all this PC stuff.

Project Pterosaur? AAAHHHHAHAHAHA!

No match for my PROJECT POGOTOSAUR, which involves the systematic destruction of creationism in all its forms through the exposure and deconstruction of their silly, vacuous arguments.

Karen,
I usually write in my favorite series (American LeMans) in the race box, sort of like writing 'YES' or 'Often As Possible' in the box marked sex. Just doing my part to make everyone's day a little more surreal.

Chaos
LMAO! Thanks!
Chuckle, Snort, wishing I had a form to fillout Right Now!

Project Pterosaur

Yes! Step right up kiddies! For just 6 Smiling Jesus Tickets, you too can ride on the back of a REAL dinosaur! Just like Fred and Wilma, er...uh...I mean ADAM and EVE did!
Yes, They ARE carnivorous now, but we are confident they will only eat non-believers and homosexuals and other deviants. So step right up!

Oh, sh*t. Now what do I say?
PC is IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

Karen,
Just say "Asian". It's the accepted term, and even though some of us think it's stupid, we'll understand that your intent was to refer to our heritage without offending. If it's someone you know, find out if they are Korean, Japanese, etc. and use that. Just be careful not to call a Korean or Chinese person Japanese. They hate that.

Check out the "Asians all look the same" test:
http://www.alllooksame.com/
Oddly enough, I'm half Korean, and I scored 50%. Coincidence?

Justin
I just got a "very bad" report card from the test! I scored 33%. The pix were a little too small for me.
My family doctor is Korean and the neighbors down the street are Chinese. Those folks on the test looked like they were blended races. Makes it harder to tell. Oh well. I'll just take your advice.

Karen,
Don't feel bad. No American should be reasonably expected to tell the difference. I sent that link to a friend and told him that out of 18 pictures, the average score was 7. His reply:
"Is Chinese the right answer 7 times?"

From the Macon daily, thought you guys might get a tiny kick out of this one. Apparantly accidents happen to anyone! Go figure! (get a look at the name of his church!)


Preacher hit by car, killed on the way to church

A minister walking to a Wednesday night church supper was struck by a car and killed in front of his church, said Bibb County Coroner Leon Jones.

The Rev. James R. Brown, 76, was pronounced dead at the scene of the accident near the Church of God of Prophecy in the 6000 block of Houston Road, Jones said.

Shortly after 6 p.m., Brown stepped into the path of a 1997 Mercury Grand Marquis, driven by Melanie Skipper, 52, who was in the right southbound lane, according to a news release from the Bibb County Sheriff's Office.

"He just stepped out in front of her," said Capt. David Davis, Bibb County Sheriff's spokesman.

No charges have been filed but the Bibb County Sheriff's Office fatality team is investigating, the release stated.

An autopsy will be performed this morning, Jones said.
- Liz Fabian

R4D has the idea. The technical language here is that the groups seeking to gain an advantage have set up a "straw man" to knock down.

The same "straw man" has been "banning bibles" "Gay rights" "Halloween" "birth control pills" - pick a knee-jerk issue and you can have half the population respond with outrage.

Now, let's set up our own "straw man."

The Religious in conjunction with Conservatives and Republicans are about to legislate that the Sun does not "come up" in the East any longer. The Sun, henceforth, will rise on the Right and set on the Left. Proving that all is RIGHT with the world.

Let's put up a survey asking how many people support the Sun rising on the Right and setting on the Left and see what happens.

OK R4D get me some costs for a cheap "TheSUNisRIGHT.org" domain and survey / comment page. I'd put a couple of hundred bucks into a month or two of the experiment. If a few of our group put notices on the left and right wing blog sites that a survey is out about the Sun rising on the Right we might have some interesting results.

Also it would show how easily a significant portion of the (tech savvy?) Internet population could be induced to waste their time on a topic that is intrinisically absurd.

JustinW,
I got a 6 and while in San Diego had Chinese, Japanese and Korean friends. I knew I was lost when my Philipino buddy said he was pacific islander and not asian. I "thought" only Hawaiian people were islanders:)

Comment from: karen [Member]
sword
If you fill out a job application, or forms for school, or any such paperwork, how do they handle the race codes? How about on drivers' licenses?
12/01/05 @ 13:42


It's simple!
It is not asked. Drivers licenses have a picture of cours, but name, age and height are mentionned in writing as a description, that's all.

Job applications do not ask for skin color, that would be illegal.

Isn't "objective ministries" an oxymoron? :o)

I didn't want to ruin all the fun Peach!

See how your tithings are being spent?!

Better that than litigation defense!

OK R4D get me some costs for a cheap "TheSUNisRIGHT.org" domain and survey / comment page.

That's actually a fun idea. I'll look into it!

TX Atheist wrote "I knew I was lost when my Philipino buddy said he was pacific islander and not asian. I "thought" only Hawaiian people were islanders"

Maybe I should insist on being called a North Atlantic Islander due to my almost pure British heritage...
Great Britain is a big island after all. :-)
Sorry my post has shot this thread all to hell and way off topic.
Alex.

The Solstice is the Reason for the Season, Solstice Conifers are ancient traditions to bring in the scent of nature into the dank homes of harsh winter climates predating Vatican / xian claims that an alleged baby god was born coincidentally upon Saturnalia of the Roman pantheon of alleged deities. Christ Mass trees are very recent English traditions of the last 14 decades or so. Much like the praying to the flag of McCarthy just 50 years ago, idiots assume something that is older than they are are ancient. Current attempts to blame the ACLU & American Atheists for "renaming" exclusive religious marketing & theocratics into less inclusive "holiday" trees & school pageants is just plain self serving big lies. Xians used to mumble both: "Merry Xmas & Happy Hannukah" to placate voices of anti-semitism correctly responding to the frenzies of merchants & cashiers to pretend gift buying & gift wrapping somehow is holy & sacred. Since I cut out the illegal motto on all of my currency, clerks/cashiers instantly can observe my non-compliance with the theocratic conspiracies to re-write history pretending that Christmas/Xmas was not for many years illegal in states like Alabama as a "popish ritual." I encourage all people to fight back with responses like: "crusades are not happy history" or "alleged baby gods are not my idea of symbolizing peace on earth or good will toward men" when some clerk or shopper tries this mindless drivel of religious brainwashed blather. Nonetheless, I do it with a smile, and thank people for their smiles & their good intentions. I remind them religious violence begins with presuming one religion is better than another. Bigotry is simply pretending one is better than another. I have compassion for theocratic victims of propaganda. I stand for telling the truth and guiding a light out of the darkness. I light my Solstice Conifer with American Atheist orbits, colored lights, Stars like Polaris and home made ornaments my children have enjoyed creating out of celebratory scientific hope. No single religion can monopolize good cheer or compassion, indeed they need to be held accountable for their source books, their bibles that call me a: "fool" & "a reprobate." And cited for the examples of training young & old minds alike to practice violence illustrated in such texts as the King James Bible. Now, during this current "heat season" of pious fervor, sprinkle out reason for the season, logic not sick dishonest sentiments and smile as someone free from threats of hell or bribes of heaven. Peace on earth will happen when such a message such as mine is never censored in the future as it is frequently now.

PS, my local firefighters station has erected a creche, I shall organize a demand to have either a removal of the symbolic union of fiction with public safety OR allow OUR erection alongside the statues of unwise men & a virgins alleged recent progeny with halo OUR AMERICAN ATHEIST ORBIT alit with joyous colors & the words: SOLSTICE IS THE REASON FOR THE SEASON

Anybody familiar with a guy named Fred Heeren? He's an author "Show Me God" (and then some),a scientist, a science reporter. He and his wife started Day Star Productions out of Chicago many years ago.
Anyhooways, his wife was my best friend growing up. I was just googling him and her and their company trying to get an email addy for them, and BOY is he into a lot of Creationism and ID stuff!!! I have his SMG book, but never really read it.
Was just wondering since some of you guys know lots of the names involved in this stuff, if youve ever come across his.

flanoblvr--
Oh! You're from Hillsborough County? I used to live in Lutz, then in the Town & Country area of Tampa (where my mother-in-law still lives). Now I'm on the east coast.

I don't understand why people think "Happy Holidays" is anti-Christmas? Isn't it just an inclusive term??

The racial terminology discussion is interesting. I'm over it, too! Race is just a human invention, anyway. I do sometimes say that my husband is Cuban (he is a citizen now, but he WAS born in Cuba), but to me, it's a cultural thing, not a racial thing.

Funny thing, a few years ago I filled out some forms for my son's school. He got upset and said that I was lying on the form! (He was about 8 years old, then.) He wanted me to change his race from "white" to "hispanic." Pretty funny for a kid who doesn't speak Spanish, has an Iowa farm girl for a mom, and won't eat Cuban food!

Comment from: Peach63 [Member]

One example that occurs to me of "Forced Christianization" is the attempt to get ID/Creationism taught in public schools alongside evolution. The fact that it is seriously considered and there are actual court cases about it is ludicrous.

Every other major religion teaches Creation. How can this be considered only "forced christianization"?

There's another side to this debate that I haven't heard mentioned yet.
Our first founding doucment (regardless of what some may wish) is the Declaration of Independence.
It states "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights".
I'm not looking for a history debate, but doesn't that imply "intelligent design"?

But back to the original question. How would ID force someone into Christianity and not some other religion?

Comment from: TXatheist [Member]

Forced Christianization:The Protestant 10 C monument at the Austin Capitol and General Attorney of TX Abbott saying it had a secular purpose and
http://ffrf.org/news/2000/bush.html

After reading the news report on this link it shows the non-believers tactics of quoting out of context.

Try reading the actual constitutional article quoted before agreeing with them.

"All men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences....." Uh oh. It says God and not a Creator.
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/txconst/sections/cn000100-000600.html

And again, how does a monument force someone into Christianity?

phreedm

"And again, how does a monument force someone into Christianity?"

Well, let's say we erected (no pun) a monument of two gays having sex. Would you say that was forcing homosexuality on you?

phreedm
And don't forget, we're using TAXPAYER money to erect our monument.

I'm not looking for a history debate, but doesn't that imply "intelligent design"?

Since when did "intelligent design" become a history debate? Congratulations on another completely nonsensical association thinly disguised as some sort of point.

Fred Heeren - Yes, heard of him. Never read his book, but he pops up on the media radar often enough.

phreedm asked?
"How can this be considered only "forced christianization"?

two reasons. first, only fundamental christians are pushing for it and after people like pat robertson open their intolerant mouths, it is obvious to even those with IQs less than 50 what is going on. is it obvious to you phreedm?

second,
none of us atheists are against teaching intelligent design. we are against teaching it as science. the notion of a creator, like voodoo, wirchcraft, the tooth fairy, etc. is not science.

Comment from: rainbows4dinosaurs [Member] · http://www.pogoto.com

I'm not looking for a history debate, but doesn't that imply "intelligent design"?
Since when did "intelligent design" become a history debate? Congratulations on another completely nonsensical association thinly disguised as some sort of point.

Obviously you've had too much to drink or smoke. Try rereading the statement and get your facts straight.

Comment from: flanonblvr [Member]

second,
none of us atheists are against teaching intelligent design...

Huh? To funny....

phreedm
I missed this post of yours.

Every other major religion teaches Creation. How can this be considered only "forced christianization"?

Every other major religion does NOT teach creation in our public schools.
NO other major religion teaches creation in our schools. What does that leave? DUH.

It states "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights".
I'm not looking for a history debate, but doesn't that imply "intelligent design"?

OK, if you think the Big Bang was intelligent, that works for me.
What's that? You're saying that the FF couldn't have meant the Big Bang by stating "Creator"? How do you know? Can't prove it. Can't disprove it. Too scientific for the general populus of the time? Too futuristic? All the more reason to give it a name as nebulous as "creator"!

phreedm

Comment from: flanonblvr [Member]

second,
none of us atheists are against teaching intelligent design...



Huh? To funny....

Why don't you take your own advice and try reading the entire post and not take it out of context?

phreedm... the usual dodgeball. not worth conversing with you.

Ack.
phreedm won't play with me.
He'll only play with the boys....

I'm gonna go make a phreedm voodoo doll and stick lots and lots of pins in it.

Get ready for some sharp pains, phree.

Try rereading the statement and get your facts straight.

Try pulling your head out of the Cuisinart and get your brain straight.

BTW,
I don't drink or smoke. Or do drugs. Or drink soda. I'm practically Mormon, except that I'm an atheist.

Q: What do you get when you cross a Mormon with an Atheist?

A: Someone who knocks on you door for no reason at all.

Declaration of Independence - 1776

Origin of Species - 1859

"Big Bang" Theory - 1930-1932

Phreedm's propensity to make an ass of himself - PRICELESS

r4d
That was clever!
Bet it made him mad.
He's not playin' with anybody now.
I better get more pins.

I better get more pins.

And I'll light a black candle. (cue Exorcist music)

Phred Phlintstone:

I'm not looking for a history debate, but doesn't that imply "intelligent design"?

Oh honky, please! You're ALWAYS looking for a history debate.
However, yes, it does imply the 'watchmaker' theorem (albeit that was coined in the late 19th century, by Paley).
Really doesn't buttress any of your points.

"All men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences....."

Gee, why does this look so familiar? Oh, riggghhtt...we had this conversation already. I think I was the 1 who brought up the 'dictates of their own consciences," or am I just flattering myself (again)?
You're really starting to repeat yourself far too often. Hey, I sympathize. I'm getting older too, & I tend to repeat myself more than once. Of course, we village idiots tend to do that.

So, lessee, I only have an indefeasible right to worship said creator according to the dictates of my own conscience if I believe in him/her/it. Likewise, I only have rights if I'm religious?
That seems so....UnAmerican.

Q: What do you get when you cross a Mormon with an Atheist?

A: Someone who knocks on you door for no reason at all.

I got in an atheist healing line once and nothing happened.

reluctantatheist

Your comment is very important to us.

All phreedm lines are currently fuming...

Please hold...

(Put your right hand over your heart and hum your choice of religiously patriotic music until an operator is able to respond.)

seeker

HAH!!! Good one! :-)

karen:

(Put your right hand over your heart and hum your choice of religiously patriotic music until an operator is able to respond.)

Yeesh, some music WOULD be appreciated (oh no, not Aaaaaveeee Maaarrrriaaaaaaaa!)

Phreddy:
Was off on the Paley thing: Paley, William, 1743–1805, English theologian.
Sorry.
See? Adults can admit they're incorrect.

I got in an atheist healing line onc