NoGodBlog.com

I was watching O'Liley (*you have to keep up with what the enemy is doing and, while MediaMatters does a fine job, I feel the need to suffer from time-to-time by actually enduring that blow-hard's drek*) when he had Baba as a guest! Yes, a few minutes ago....

Baba & Bill babbled on, and on and on about "heaven." Baba says it is "the most important" special she has ever done (she must have had somebody try to forclose on one of her mansions). Anyway, Bill & Baba babbled on about sex-in-heaven.

The consensus is that Moslems get sex in the afterlife and Christians get to sit at the knee of their God and worship him.

Could I be wrong about this? I heard it- I saw it. Go through the logic with me, here - Christians get to sit at the knee of their God and worship Him (doesn't this sound needlessly gay or teenaged girl adoration-ish?) and Moslems get 72 virgins....

Aside from the fact that virgins lack a lot of experience and I don't want to spend eternity trying to teach them how to get themselves and me off.....doesn't the deal seem a little perverterd?

I mentioned that Sufi poetry has some rather interesting erotica.

Hmm, heaven with or without sex?

Reminds me of the Atheist who had to give it up - nobody to talk to while getting a BJ.

Could television possibly find anything worse? I'd much rather watch the Yule-log burning for 4 hours on TV than have Baba go on and on and on about being and nothingness*. *with apoligies to Soren Kierkegaard.

Unfortunatly I had a social obligatgion I couldn't get out of so I never saw the special. Anyone out there who did? Cpmments?

People of "faith" ask me all the time why I don't believe. KKelly pretty much sums it up I think. In order for me to believe in such a thing one has to assume as true some very basic precepts of god.

1) At some point this ectoplasmic entity got bored. It was all alone in this nothingness and at some point decided not to be alone anymore.

2) It then, from all this nothingness, conjured up Angles, planets, galaxies counted in the billions containing an uncountable number of stars.

3) In the corner of one arm or one very average galaxie no where near the center of this universe it puts this little blue marble.

4) It then conjures up people and demands that these two get on their knees and worship it so that THEY can be happy and saved.

I don't know about you folks but this doesn't sound like any God that I would care to worship. Why in the world would it need US to worship it? Why wouldn't it make it's presense known, like once a century letting it "face" be seen floating in the sky? Everyone would believe then!

These stories sound more like someone defining a malevolent king or a rather ego maniacal father instead of an all powerful being capable of making all of this possible simply by wishing it so.

Total crap!

I just want to say thanks for the heads up on this program. If it weren't for email/blog alerts I would miss most of the air time of a skeptic/atheist speaker because it doesn't seem like MSM announces these speakers.

DUH! It's TONIGHT, right? Talke about messing up my days!

Dave,

Why no thread yet for the Dover ID trial ruling?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/20/intelligent.design.ap/index.html

Mornin' y'all.

Did anyone here see the show? I had to work late last night. :(

What color hair was Susan Blackmore sporting this time?

Oh Yeah

WE WON DOVER!!!!!

WHOOOOOOT!!!!!!!!

WHOOT!! WHOOOOOOT!!!

Said the judge: "It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy."

Those lying liars and the lies they tell!
What was that Mencken quote again, Phreedm?

Now we wait to hear from Pat. What kind of devastation is he going to send to Harrisburg?

I just watched FOX this morning and they are none too pleased about Dover. I guess the judge was pretty angry at the religious folks and actually said ik n the opinion that he thought they had selected memory or had commited perjury! They didn't think this ruling would be appealed.

On another note. FOX is airing a show, on sunday I believe, about the true story of the birth of christ. No myths, just the real truth! No that should be something to watch! I guess it will be the rebutal for that heathen network ABC.

The bottom line for all forms of spiritualism is eternal life. We all know Bahbah and Billie are way too important to die and be nothing for eternity.

HARRISBURG, Pennsylvania (AP) -- "Intelligent design" cannot be mentioned in biology classes in a Pennsylvania public school district, a federal judge said Tuesday, ruling in one of the biggest courtroom clashes on evolution since the 1925 Scopes trial.

Damn those left wing, hippy activist judges. They are all going to Hell!

Believe and you will Believe

But if schools don't teach religion, the poor kids are doomed to hell!

Where will they learn how to be saved?

Woot!

As I just posted on my site, this is a slap in the face to activists that seek to impose by the courts what they can not get through politics. This has happened to both the left, with suits against gun mfg.'s and the right with suits on imposing religion on children.

A pox on both of them.

kkelly,

We saw it the first time you posted ... and the second ... and the third .... etc

Stop reposting. It's spam.

Do you actually have anything to say?

kkelly
We heard you the first time. If you need your mom's advice to post, you probably don't need to be here.
Cute baby on your website. Are you sure you want to wash her brain with that lie soap?

SO KKELLY your saying the EARTH is only 4000 years old !!!! well I guess those Dinosaurs were here and gone is like what 5 years !!!! ummm maybe you better read a HISTORY BOOK then rethink your HEAVENLY HYPOTHESIS????

Isn't a hypothesis supposed to be testable?

Anyway, my sister sent me a fantastic 12 page article in the New Yorker about Margaret Talbot's coverage of the Dover trial. And the judge is dead on - those school board members contradicted themselves so many times it was unreal. Plus, ID guru Michael Behe got his intellectual ass thoroughly kicked by defense attorney Eric Rothschild. It's an amazing story and if you're near a decent news stand or bookstore I highly recommend picking it up. Unfortunately the article is not online, but I did find a link to an interview with Margaret Talbot:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/content/articles/051205on_onlineonly01

Also, would you believe they're actually talking about making a movie out of this? Paramount had a rep covering the trial and sending daily reports back to Hollywood. Rumor mill casts Tom Hanks as Judge Jones. History!!

This is just the beginning of the Secular Revolt, y'all. ID is finished!

On the ABC.COM website it has this from Ellen as to tonight's show, "Heaven..."

"But for Ellen Johnson, president of the American Atheists, science or no science, heaven is a myth.

'Heaven doesn't exist, hell doesn't exist. We weren't alive before we were born and we're not going to exist after we die. I'm not happy about the fact that that's the end of life, but I can accept that and make my life more fulfilling now, because this is the only chance I have,' she tells Walters. "

I doubt that there will be anything else in the show from Ellen. What, maybe 5 seconds?

JustinW

That was halarious. I think I shed a wee tear.

The sad part is that it is not far from "accurate"

Off the thread but science has won out over IDiotic mythology in PA...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10545387/

Alex.

Darrow-

'Being and Nothingness' was written by Sartre, I think you may have meant Kierkegaard's 'Fear and Trembling'.

JustinW

You just made my day. Hopefully I can just think of that post next time I have to hear the same revamped Xmas songs a million times in a row when I buy presents for a holiday I don't believe in fpr people who actually believe that stuff.

Whats with that redoing all the same songs anyway? Is there a law against new Xmas songs? Its even worse when they try to 'make it thir own' like every other a-hole who sings the nat'l anthem.

Yay Dover. Thankfully at least some judges still understand the constitution.

Zac

Whats with that redoing all the same songs anyway?

I was listening to my Zen (iPod like thing) this morning while waiting for a Dr appointment. When i got to see the doc I told her that I had to use the Zen at all times as I'm allergic to Xmas songs :)

I don't think she thought it was funny, even though she is Jewish.

r4d
You working late again? Cos tonight is the Baba Wawa Special. It starts in like, 30 minutes if you want to see it.
Thought I remembered you saying something way earlier about missing it.

karen,

Thanks. Yeah I got the days mixed up. (The last few weeks have been insane.) I'm headed home right now though. This is Portland so it starts later (or same time but later, or something.)

Truth be told I'm not sure if I want to subject myself to it. I hate BW and I hate goofy shows like this one, but I feel kinda obligated to watch Ellen. Not that I know the lady or anything, but... well you know.

r4d
I'm only watching because of Ellen myself, and to see what kind of a deal she gets...fair shake or raw. Not that I envision any fairness coming.
But I never (almost!) get to see any atheists on TV and I missed whatever the last thing was.
So far, the show's fairly entertaining, but nothing new.

Hmmm....18 million Americans claim to have near death experiences and claim to have seen a slice of heaven.
There are also reports of people having near death experiences and seeing hell. It's too bad Baba didn't interview at least one of these people.

The last lady made a great statement.
She know's her life has purpose. I don't mean to be disrepectful at all but does an atheist believe their life has purpose? I would say not.

And from a position of compassion I find that extremely sad...

Just saw the ABC/Baba Wawa special on Heaven. Ellen did great. But I was struck how most of the believers who tried to describe "heaven" did so in remarkably earthy terms, i.e. eating a lot without gaining weight, being re-united for a spouse (yet having plenty of side action...)... Hmmm, sounded pretty much like the Love Boat.

well the dahli llama was great. for such a revered person he came across as the most normal of them all.

ellen was ok but as you can see it is difficult to come across as comforting given our beliefs which are viewed as depressing to those who want a wonderful afterlife in heaven with their deceased love ones.

what was interesting is that the basic hope of an afterlife which is better than life on earth and you are in peaceful bliss is a common thread to all.

so all this points out is the obvious appeal of atheism is really an educational and truth seeking process. that's why we will remain a minority. but shoot, i love being a rebel anyhow.

g'nite guys and gals.

The one scientist, after Ellen, claims to have found a mutation in human genes. He calls it the God gene. People with this gene have an easier time being spiritual.

Since one of the driving forces of evolution are mutations that create a new life form, maybe it's the exact opposite of what has been proclaimed here.

Perhaps those with this gene are actually a rung higher on the evolutionary ladder. And having scientific proof presented this sure seems plausible.

Wouldn't that be a hoot?

Zac's correct - I'm mixing my philosophers again.

I skipped the show. My copy of Serenity arrived from Amazon - I arrived home at 7:30 - had dinner and spouse and I retired to watch the film (it was out of the theaters before I could see it). I fell asleep about 2/3 through the film.

Oh well - now I have the +ians and Firefly folks hating me.

phreedm
Blockquote>The last lady made a great statement.
She know's her life has purpose.
Yeah. She died for 4 minutes after a c-section giving birth to her second child and had the revelation that her purpose was to be a mother. DUH.

Notice how Babs didn't follow up on the scientific stuff nearly as much as she went on about the superstitious stuff?
DalaiLama was cool. The NY Muslim guy was pretty cool too. Tim Haggard gave me the creeps again. Ellen was good. Seemed a little too happy that this is all there is. I thought maybe she was nervous. I felt she had a lot more to say. The vibe was, "JUST LET ME SPEAK, Baba Wawa!!!!"

ACK! I shrubbed another blockquote. It IS getting pretty tired in here. Think it's about time to toddle off to bed.
I keep seeing Maria Shriver's anorexic look. That woman needs to eat something.

I just did a blog entry on the Heaven special, but it's too long to put here. Feel free to check it out at http://www.mikesweeklyskepticrant.blogspot.com if you like (sorry, I suck at html). Ellen was great for the two minutes she was on, but the short duration was no surprise coming from the Chairwoman of The View.

Did anyone note the inconsistencies of the after-life experiences? One saw cats and dogs climbing up a staircase, or something to that effect. Another saw brick walls. No two were the same. If after life experiences were genuine, they would all be nearly identical. We credit to gods what we do not know or understand.

The psychologist attributed these experiences to increased brain activity. She is right. (Even fundamentalists know they are not genuine.)

The god gene? Seems to me that the findings were inconclusive. The universal inclination to believe in the supernatural may be physiological. Then again, someone in an earlier thread noted that in the very few instances where children were raised apart from human influence — such as those raised by animals — they had no sense of spiritual awareness; no sense of the supernatural. So is our sense of the supernatural inherited, or is it sociological? Or both?

And for the record...

I believe Walters was steering her viewers toward the conclusion that because the various concepts of heaven are so different they cannot be true, that atheists can see through the nonsense and that scientific inquiry confirms that atheists are correct.

It was coup for atheism; a subtle nudging of Americans away from its Christian mindset.

She know's her life has purpose. I don't mean to be disrepectful at all but does an atheist believe their life has purpose? I would say not.

All life has purpose. We all have one life, and our purpose is to live it. It's just too precious not to live purposefully.

Perhaps those with this gene are actually a rung higher on the evolutionary ladder. And having scientific proof presented this sure seems plausible.

God gene theory is VERY controversial and untested, but there is plenty of evidence for an evolutionary purpose of magical thinking.

Okay, the show's almost over here. My thoughts:

Even though they were each only given about 30 seconds air time, I think Ellen Johnson and Susan Blackmore did a fantastic job. Ellen was straight forward and rational, and she said basically everything I could've hoped she would say. Blackmore kept her feet on the ground (and her hair brown,) and focused on her research findings.

Dean Hamer (the God gene guy) gave a pretty persuasive argument (albeit short.) I've read many critiques of his work, but perhaps it's time to pick up a copy of his book and see what he has to say.

The Dahli Lama was charming as usual, but kooky as ever. You gotta respect the guy's humility though.

Tim Haggard is a f*cking psycho. Seriously, that dude scares the crap out of me.

And I have to agree with Seeker when it comes to the 'near deathers.' Dogs and cats running up and down a staircase? Sorry lady, that's a hallucination.

My wife said a funny thing after that segment. She has a crazy case of arachnophobia, and says that her biggest fear is that when her brain begins to shut down and release all those suppressed memories she'll dream she's covered in thousands of spiders. Yikes!

GOOD JOB ELLEN!!!!!!

phreedm-

What purpose do we have? Well, I can only speak for myself. The meaning of life for me is to live. So my purpose is to live.

Ellen got the least amount of time!:(
BUT, at least Baba didnt give the crazy evangelicals as much time as the Dahli! She also portrayed buddhism in very high regards! My guess.. ole Baba is a buddhist.

I was also dissapointed with the air time Ellen got. She wasn't able to articulate at all WHY we feel the way we do. Everyone knows an atheist doesn't believe in a hearafter. But all in all it didn't go badly. I won't repeat what everyone above me said about the born againer's, very scary folks, and the Dahli Lama. I think that as scary as the born againer's are the guy she interviewed in the jail in Isreal, the failed suicied bomber, showed in great detail what the world is up against. He was really scary!

BTW, FOX is going to do their thing about religion I think on Sunday. If I'm wrong about the day someone please correct me. It's about the birth of christ and they are going to debunk all the myths surrounding said birth. Shoud be fair and unbaised?

I think Barbie did a good job showing the inherent contradictions between the abrahamic religions, jeezus is the only guarantee from that psycho evangelist, the suicide bomber says mohammed is the only way, etc. The blasphemy was there, but for the mostly xian audience, I doubt they picked that up. Ellen did get hosed on the airtime, and it shows what kind of a journalist you are when you spend time interviewing dipshit celebrities like Gere & Shriver than Blackmore & Hamer.

It could have been a lot worse.

I thought Ellen did a great job, thanks to her for representing us in a honorable manner.

I thought Ellen did a good job on the interview with Babs. But i was a bit disappointed that she got so little air time then the rest of the religious figures. Well maybe because i couldn't really concentrate on the conversation, i was busy talking with mom (she's Japanese) about the concept of the afterlife and it went something like this:

me: man that Tim Haggard is one creepy mother******.

mom: i know, maybe thats why people aren't going to church anymore.

me: did you know that people actually believe all this?

mom: well, it is comfoting for some to know that some one is watching over them and get to go to someplace peaceful after you die.

me: but there's alot of loopholes (especially christianity) if you think about it.

mom: how so?

me: if you're a law abiting good citizen who are compationate and helpful, but don't believe in Jesus/God... BAM!!! you go to hell.

mom: oh my...

me: but if you're a serial killer who killed i don't know... 20, 30 people, you can go to heaven if you seek forgiveness, repent, and put Jeebus in to your heart. See the hypocracy?

mom: OMG

me: and some people schools in this country don't teach evolution too.

mom: huh? no way, every school teach evolution.

me: no not all of them.

mom: you're kidding?

me: i kid you not.

mom: but in Japan, all the schools teach evolution.

me: that's why that country is decades advanced in technology.

Funny thanks for the comments

Phreedm,

I would submit a slightly more existentialist response to your question. I believe that the only meaning life has is the meaning we give it. I don't necessarily think the purpose of life is just to live, although that seems enough for some. I feel a sense of purpose to further the human race in their search for knowledge, in dispelling mistruth, in building a better world for the future, in creating and enjoying beauty. None of these requires God.

I happen to be a musician in my free time, and I feel some purpose in that, to create music, for myself and others. I don't do it for the glory of God. I also don't think I was endowed with any great gifts as I know how much effort I had to put in pursuing it myself. Plenty of atheists have purpose and meaning. It just isn't to please God. in fact I defy you to give me an example of purpose in a Christian framework that isn't to simply please God.

Further, why does theism entail purpose over atheism at all in your opinion? It seems to me like life would be less meaningful if I knew the outcomes of all my ethical choices. If I knew what the afterlife held for me. That doesn't seem like I would have purpose, but that I was living out someone or something elses purpose. Like many have argued as well, can I even have free will if God is omniscient? Not to enticing or rewarding to me. I would rather set the bar for myself and define my own meaning, to strive to achieve my own ends. Ethics and meaning are more rewarding when done as ends in themselves rather than out of god fearing habit.

Incidentally, Phreedm, I think your level of discourse here has greatly improved and I would like to extend, if only for myself, a small olive branch to you. You get a pretty hard time here, and I think it has become a habit to be so quick to dismiss you just because we (sometimes loudly) disagree a lot. I am not endorsing your opinions by any means, but I do like the fights you stir up better than say, KKelly. I would hope that we are all responsible for maintaining civility here, not just that we expect it from our guests.

Zac,

I agree with you about the meaning of life. IMHO it is to progress as a race and build on our already rich history as sentient biological organisms. If I can add to the mix and contribute to this advancement then my life is not in vein.

To tie the supernatural into a meaning of life is just plain silly. It doesn't help better the human race, or contribute anything. It's a more selfish explination for meaning than anything else.

Serious Questions about Walters interview

Walters had an extensive conversation with an Israeli prisoner who was a would-be suicide bomber. It appeared to me that this man probably had a serious mental illness. If this person was identifiable by Muslims as such, than it could be an idication that they intentially take advantage of those unable to make sound decisions. Please don't respond to this posting with childish insults about Islam. It is hard to believe that even the strictest Muslims would consider this person to be normal. If he was not typical of any pattern, than the Walters interview was misleading.

bygod
Other than being typically brainwashed by his religion, I didn't see any signs of mental illness in the prisoner you mention.
My take was that he was extremely uncomfortable and embarrassed to be talking with a woman about very personal issues. An infidel white woman from the west, no less. I think he was probably also angry that she was a woman and in controlling his anger, his emotions came across as being a little hesitant and deferential.
What about him made you think he was mentally ill?

I believe that the only meaning life has is the meaning we give it.

Well said. I would add that since we only have one life to live we are left with a very stark choice on the sort of meaning we wish to put into it. And since the only approximations to an 'afterlife' we could ever hope for are our legacy (the way we'll be remembered and the things/ideas we leave behind) and our progeny (children if we wish to have them) then it's reasonable to aspire for the most ethical and productive life possible. I like the way Paul Kurtz puts it, basically that we should treat our one life as the ultimate work of art.

I like the idea of a life as the ultimate work of art. It does capture something beautiful about finitude and legacy.

Like Nietzsche says, "Die at the right time..." and "Amor Fati" (love your fate). It is more than enough to embrace the life you have. Or like Jim Morrison says in 'American Prayer' (ZOMG I can't believe I am quoting Doors lyrics) "You've seen your birth, your life and death/You might recall all of the rest./Did you have a good world when you died?/Enough to base a movie on?"

Well, I only watched up to the part where Ellen was on, & it may have been far too brief. Missed all the Xtian &/or near-death commentary.
I really do like the Dali Lama.
& honestly, Gere's not my favorite actor, but I do respect him.
Why?
He stood up at a time (post 9/11), & called for calmness & reason (amid booing).
I have forgotten the exact event.
But to speak up when it's unpopular to do so? Takes guts. Gotta admire that.
Walkin' the talk.

I guess Gere was supposed to represent the Westerners' view of Buddhism. I don't really see why his interview was necessary. BW could have spent more time with Ellen, rather than focusing on celebs like Gere and Shriver, and the rather emotional near-death tale of Liz Taylor.
I missed Susan Blackmore completely; don't know how. Her spot must have been awfully short.

karen:
Well, as an actor, he's so-so. But it makes sense to bring a celebrity follower into the discussion.
If it were a Joe Schmoe off the street, who would care?
Besides, anyone who'd be on the Simpsons has my respect.
Can't take oneself too seriously. Always a mistake.

Susan Blackmore's website:
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/

The near death experience. An experience that is more commom than one believes. I think in the special one of the doctor's said it was caused by the brain running out of oxygen. When I was in the Air Force some used to do the centrifuge, a draconian device that spun around and caused the human body to experience high "G's." The astrounauts still use it I think and I would imagine most of you have seen one spin around with some guy inside with a distorted face as he eventually passes out. Anyway, some experiments were done years ago about how this device interreacted with the human brain and it was determined that many pilots and volunteers had a near death experience while going through this ordeal. Not everyone of course, seems some brains are more suseptable than others, but enough were affected so that further experimentation was conducted. I haven't read anything out it in years so I admit my information is out of date but I do know that the "near death' experience is quite natural and happens a lot when the human brain is deprived of oxygen. I can't make myself comment on flying dogs and cats.

gently,

You mean g-lock? Yeah I've read that it can cause pilots to hallucinate and even pass out. That's why those guys can only be up to certain height, lift weights like crazy (especially the legs,) and perform these crazy isometric exercises when they have to perform sharp, high speed turns. Otherwise all the blood rushes into the extremities and they black out.

That's why the days of actual fighter pilots are numbered. They will soon be traded in for robot planes that can perform practically any maneuver at practically any speed. Scary Robots!

Luckily, there's a new book out the will prepare you for the coming battle against these monsters:
http://www.robotuprising.com/home.htm

Muahahaahahahahahaha!

r4d:
Seen the movie 'Stealth', yet?
No, too many people go into 'Frankenstein' mode when technology replaces them.
Hmmm...I'd heard that Shrub was a pretty good wingman before he went AWOL. Could he be...dare I say it...an evil ROBOT?
Muahahaahahahahahaha! (to coin a phrase).

Ellen didn't get much camera time. That's the way the media cookie
crumbles. But the last quarter of the show spent a surprising amount of time discussing skeptic challenges to religion.

More favored was Michael White (http://www.utexas.edu/research/isac/lmw/), a religion/classics professor at U. Texas at Austin. I knew him as the head of the religion department when I was at Oberlin College. Even at that liberal, often very antireligious school, he loved finding and antagonizing rare Christian students who'd grown up making the mistake of accepting as fact everyday religious myths. (An article 16 years later at http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/displayarticle.cfm?id=9680 shows he's
still doing it). His popular book is "From Jesus to Christianity: How Four Generations of Visionaries & Storytellers Created the New Testament and Christian Faith" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0060816104).

On the satirical Jewish account of Jesus, "Sepher Tolduth Yeshu":

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~freethought/foote/toldoth/tjtitle.htm (1885 edition)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1578849160 or https://lightning.he.net/~atheists/catalogue/shop/prod7026.php (AA Press's extraordinarily comprehensive "The Jesus the Jews Never Knew: Sepher Toldoth Yeshu and the Quest of the Historical Jesus in Jewish Sources") by Frank Zindler, with a bit of grunt work by me
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0OBB/is_3_41/ai_105160324
(Zindler discusses the book)

Josh

r4d

Actually the height requirement for fighter pilots varies with the type of plane they fly and is there not for G force conciderations, they have G suits to counteract that, but because if they are above a certain height and have to eject then they will have both legs cut off at the knees as they leave the plane. As I remember in the F4 Phantom the max height was 6'4". I don't know about todays planes like the F15.

Just some more useless information I have stored. Maybe I should read a book?

http://www.goosee.com/puppy/>