NoGodBlog.com

Angry Atheist? That's quite the broad brush. I get angry because of other's behaviors. Not because of who they are. Fundamentally, pretty much all people are "good." However, from time to time some people exhibit inappropriate behavior. An example of inappropriate behavior are those behaviors that jepordize others. For example, blowing ones self up in order to kill non-believers is inapprpriate behavior. Do what you want to yourself provided it does not hurt others (go out to the desert and blow yourself up, don't do it in a crowded market). Suicide is fine provided you don't leave a wife and/or kids... I digress, I'm not angry because you are a theist, I get angry because of the behaviors that your theism drives you to do that affect me. Does that make sense? A Rational Being

I don’t know why we keep getting this label. We aren’t angry unless it’s what we perceive as a good reason. When the KKK comes to town I am disappointed they hold such views and I guess angry that they have been taught it’s ok to hate based not on someone’s action but their skin color. When someone denies the Holocaust magnitude I find it insulting to the survivors but I think they’d be mad at the propaganda insulting their suffering. I’m mad they have to have their suffering discounted or insulted. I also get irritated when someone says atheists believe in nothing Rabbi Gellman. I believe in many of the same compassionate things you do except that they are human values, not gods. The purpose of life is what you make it is my slogan. I do think there are things that come close to eternity. The earth and the ozone layer need attention but my short life and the ability to help will cease to help that cause in a mere blink of genealogical time but I will strive for betterment anyway. One of the movements that is hopefully catching traction is a universal idea, Make the world a better place. MTWABP. If religion wasn’t being pushed as literal science in public schools I’d have very little reason to be angry at all with god. I don’t believe in god so you trying to share it with me is too much. I do not believe in god, thanks but no thanks.

Here is the letter I sent to Newsweek:

I appreciate the intention to try to understand us atheists. That is a step in the right direction. I think part of the reason SOME atheists come off as angry is that we are so used to be misunderstood, generalized, and even vilified. We are not people who believe in nothing. We are not people without meaning an purpose in our lives. We are not people without moral and ethical principals. We are not people who unable to feel and enjoy love and a sense of wonder. Most of us came to our beliefs through years of careful soul searching and thought. I don't want to sound angry here, but the Rabbi's suggestion that we are atheists because we were damaged by bad events in our lives is both offensive and ignorant.

If Rabbi Gellman is really interested in understanding atheism, he could invite a spokesperson of American Atheists or some other organization to guest-author his column one week. If he were to get to know more real every-day atheists, I think he would find that we are, as a group, much different from what he expects. And the next time he writes about us in a national magazine, he might not have to guess about what's on our minds.

Here is my letter to him.

Hi Rabbi Mark,



Let me preface my letter by saying I do not hate religion, I admit that it has done many good thing for many people. Some people need religion to guide them and who am I to stop them. I am personally not threatened by gods, the tooth fairy, boogie man, or any other mythology.



What I am mad about is the current state of religion in the US. The right is using religion to stifle science. Christianity, specifically, does not promote being good stewards of our planet it breeds a view that when I go to heaven the earth does not matter. Well I got something to tell you, other people live here and hope to live here a long time. Global warming is a real issue and Christianity could careless. Then they bring there “moral” on things like embryonic stem cells research. They call not researching them a “culture of life”. Stem cells are the #1 thing right now that could expand our healthy lifespan. Stem cells have the possibility of saving 1000s of lives a day. And they call not researching them a “culture of life”, that is a joke. Religion breeds deathism. Christians who live there whole lives looking forward to dying, and when atheists see an opportunity to live the only life they get longer and Christians try to stop them they get mad. I feel that I may die sooner then I have to because of the Christian luddites that are in charge. Just look at the old head of Bush’s “Bioethics council” Leon Cass. He has been quoted as saying (paraphrasing now) that the government has the right to ask it citizen to die at 120 years old because that is what the bible says. Instead the top figures on the right tell their followers that adults have stem cells, even in their fat. They don’t bother saying that these cells are harder to grow, differentiate, keep alive, they divide slower, and can only form a few cell types. They dumb down the science to a point to where their followers can’t be swayed by the real science.



The media does not help either. Instead of reporting on the science of what is being discovered they focus of the issues that the right has against it and never/rarely mention the science. The media should be reporting on the differences between types of stem cells, what they can do, possibly cure, and make our lives longer and better. Instead they talk about killing clusters of a dozen cells as the main issue. If the media wants to talk about the ethics that is fine, just present the science first so people can see the context.



I am not mad I am SCARED FOR MY LIFE. I would also like to pigeon hole myself into a humanist movement “transhumanism”. We believe that technology is close to the point where humanity needs to start transitioning to a new way of life. The current world is not sustainable. One of the main changes that we forecast is the defeating of the aging process. Aubrey de Grey is one of the most public proponents to defeating aging. His proposal is called SENS, Strategies for Engineering Negligible Senescence (www.sens.org). We do not need to cure aging now, we just need to expand the average lifespan by more then 1 year ever year. A challenge you to research the current science on aging research and do a column about it and what it might entail to life and religion. I think it could really help you and your readers understand the atheist position.



Thanks for your time.

The reason most atheists Rabbi Gellman discusses religion with grow angry may be because he accuses them of being childish and immature, by rejecting God just because of "an angry degrading sermon, or an insensitive eulogy." I assume Gellman would be upset if someone implied his "rejection of Jesus" isn't due to any legitimate theological reasons, but just because he got offended by a preacher one day and stormed out angry.

Yes, atheists can get angry when they hear people like Rabbi Gellman purport tired sterotypes of atheists being "angry at God" or as all existentialists who value nothing and hope for nothing.

Here is my letter. A little less conciliatory than most that I've read, but hopefully not over the line....

Rabbi Gellman,

In your column “Trying to Understand Angry Atheists”, I found myself agreeing with you for the first few lines, becoming slightly annoyed at the assumptions made about both atheism and religion in the middle, and finally rolling my eyes at the whole piece. In the interest of brevity, I won’t debate every point, even though I do disagree with most of them. I would, however, like to challenge your most egregious assumption.

You wrote: “To be called to a level of goodness and sacrifice so constantly and so patiently by a loving but demanding God may seem like a naive demand to achieve what is only a remote human possibility. However, such a vision need not be seen as a red flag to those who believe nothing.”

Atheists don’t believe in nothing. We just believe in one less god than you do. Other than this one area, however, I suspect that you and I “believe” mostly the same things – family, education, freedom, fairness, etc.

I’m interested to know, however, where you’re finding this loving, patient, good God. I admit that I know little about Judaism, but my basic understanding is that the Tanakh roughly corresponds to the Christian Old Testament (see “Judaism 101” at http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm).

In 1 Samuel, God commands total genocide of the Amalekites, even going so far as to specify that the Israelites slaughter all infants, children, and livestock. In Joshua, God orders and assists in the genocide of the inhabitants of Jericho. In Numbers, it’s the Midianites’ turn. In Judges, the Spirit of the Lord empowers Samson to kill 1,000 people. In 2 Kings, God has bears maul 42 kids for calling a prophet bald. In Deuteronomy 21, God explains the lawful way to rape a beautiful woman.

There’s a lot more, but you get the idea. Is this the loving, patient God you speak of? Or is God maybe like an abusive father who is good most of the time, but occasionally gets drunk and beats his wife and kids? And how is belief in this – or some other – enigmatic being a prerequisite for “disciplining our animal urges?”

Best regards,
Bob

I haven't written a letter yet but here is what I might say:

Yes I am an angry atheist and I will tell you why.
Religion is used to enshrine discrimination into law in the USA with religious arguments being used to deny gays and les_bians marriage equality. There are no compelling secular arguments to deny us marriage but religious objections are cited as reason for this blatant discrimination.
I am angry that here in North Carolina religious arguments denied us a state lottery until just recently. Tens of millions of dollars were lost to the surrounding states and the lost revenue was made up in higher taxes.
I am angry that churches and other religious institutions are tax exempt yet my tax dollars go to support public services that benefit these organizations.
I am angry that every time I open my wallet I am confronted with a motto which does not reflect the beliefs of every American. In god some of us trust but not all. Also, the phrase "One nation, under god" does not reflect my worldview. What was wrong with the Latin motto "E Pluribus Unum/Out of Many, One"? This is secular and more inclusive of the American ideal.
I am angry that religious objections stifle science and technology. The debate over teaching evolution, the hostility and intimidation of the current administration towards science when it disagrees with national policy, and the backward direction that science and technology is taking in this country scares me.
I am angry that religious considerations dictate when and where I may purchase alcohol.
I am angry that much of my childhood was taken from me becasue of religiously sanctioned homophobic attitiudes. The amount of time I wasted trying to change my core identity and not being open and honest with those I love I can never regain. The lost oppurtunities in my early life to find love will never present themselves again. These same attitudes result directly in the battery, murder, and suicide of gays and les_bians everyday.
As you can see I am angry and rightfully so.
Alex.

I am going to write a letter later tonight

and ps its funny how many of you guys get pissed at phreedm saying he never adds any thing but didnt he drop the link on the last thread

Too long to post here.

http://wrightwing.net/2006/04/28/15/04/272

Not bad, if I say so myself.

Here's what I wrote: and he deserves it.

Mr. Gellman,

Your column on April 26 is so incredibly flawed; I don’t even know where to begin. In the interests of brevity, I will only address the most egregious of them.

First, not all atheists are angry, and few cling to existential despair. In fact, most atheists aren’t even recognized as atheist unless they “out” themselves. So let’s just stop with the wild stereotyping. It’s not at all becoming.

Atheists also believe in all sorts of things, just not the god concept. So please quit tying to portray us as pathetic creatures doomed to tragic, empty lives. I, for one, happen to have a wonderful life, free from the fear of a vengeful, infantile deity. So, again, stop with the stereotyping.

I also find it interesting that your litany of motivations for becoming an atheist, not one wasn’t emotionally based. Did you not think, even for a moment, that someone could accept atheism based on methodical, rational investigation? That maybe, just maybe, the atheist found -in atheism- the most reasonable explanation for reality?

Perhaps next time you write column, you may want to do more research than consulting your personal stereotypes and flawed assumptions. There are a number of internet forums that cater to atheists (Secular Web Forum at infidels.org is an excellent example). Surely you could observe their behavior, and ask them why they’re just so darn angry all the time.

In conclusion, I leave you with this piece of wisdom:

“If you don't know what you're talking about, shut up.” – Haladineth (fstdt.com)

Sincerely,

****Real Name****, one of many Proud Atheists

PS – If you don’t know why atheists complain about living next door to evangelical Christians, it’s because some (you should become acquainted with this word) don’t know when to quit proselytizing.


A little mean, but hey, a little rhetoric gets the message through.

Swintah

Rabbi Gellman,
I was saddened to see your article which paints a stereo-typed picture of atheists that is entirely the opposite of what I see. Such stereotyped comments unnecessarily widen the divide between atheists and believers. I meet with a few friends once or twice a month to discuss politics, religion, economics, and current events. Three of us are atheists, agnostics, etc. and two are Christians. I certainly wouldn’t characterize any of us as angry atheists or angry Christians. We are just a few old geezers who enjoy talking together. My wife is an atheist and I certainly don’t find her angry except when I forget something on her to do list. My children are more open minded than about religion. They are still searching and would best be described as agnostics. They are not angry agnostics.

I don’t like associating with angry people which is why many of my good friends are atheists. I find them charming, happy, open minded, interesting, and stimulating in conversation. I also have a great number of similar friends who are religious. I basically like most people but will admit that people who for whatever reason seem angry at the world can be hard to tolerate.

Your story about James Watson was enlightening. He is like many famous atheists such as Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, E.O. Wilson, or Daniel Dennett who are good examples of atheists that are not angry. Do you have any statistics that would show that atheists are more angry than Christians or Jews? “Not to sound” condescending, but “I am tempted to believe that behind” your stereotype of angry atheists there is “an uncomfortable personal history.”

Unfortunately there are angry atheists just like there are angry Christians and Jews. Some people just have chip on their shoulder. Personally, I avoid them. Perhaps in your line of work you don’t have this option. If that’s the case try agreeing with them where possible. Try not to put them on the defensive. Be understanding. Maybe you can help them get over their anger. This is what I do when I can’t avoid someone who is angry.

Here's my letter - I wonder if he was expecting this kind of resposne.

-----

Rabbi Gellman,

My name is Michael Doss, and I'm a lifelong atheist and president of Orange County atheists, a social and political action group in Southern California. I read your column for the first time last week ("The Case for Vegetarianism"), and very much enjoyed your perspective and prose. Because you honestly seem to want to understand atheist anger, I decided to write to you.

The first thing you should understand is that not all atheists are angry. Some are, certainly (and I believe atheists have a lot to be angry about), but most simply want to live their lives. Some are concerned with other people's religion intruding into their lives, while many others simply want to be left alone. Due to the nature of atheism, there is no "central group" telling atheists how to believe, or how to act. There are vast differences between those without a belief in God or gods.

The loudest atheists, the ones you might be reading online or seeing on talk shows, are often those with something to say, and that comes off as anger. This tends to be true of most groups - those willing to speak up, make themselves heard, and stand out in the crowd are those with a reason for doing this. But every atheist's reason for this is different.

I meet a lot of atheists as president of my local group - some are angry because of personal histories. They have a hatred of God (and occasionally religious peoples) due to a perception that He is the cause of their problems. This subgroup, however, is by no means the majority of the people I meet, and it's not true for me. I'm an atheist for the same reason you don't believe in 200-foot tall purple gorillas or that the moon is made of green cheese - I don't see the evidence for such things as being convincing, or there's evidence to the contrary.

Another point I wanted to make was that not all atheists are nihilists - in fact, very few in my experience seem to be. For me, the purpose of life is to live. Because life is short, and because any life after death is unknowable, I must do my best to live the best I can every day. Personally, that means treating others with respect. It means being a vegetarian and working to end animal suffering. It means enjoying life's pleasures. And it means working to end negative religious intrusion into my life and my government.

Do I have anger? Absolutely. I'm angry that non-Christians seem to get deferential treatment, both directly and non-directly. I'm angry that religious belief is so much assumed to be the moral standard that non-theists are automatically seen as amoral. I'm angry that Christians praise God for the most minor things while seemingly ignoring the millions of people suffering in the world. To me, worship of a being that can help, but doesn't (or helps those who aren't suffering while ignoring those who are) is somewhat disturbing. That said, I don't hate God any more than you hate Zeus or unicorns. There's nothing there to hate.

I hope this letter finds you well, and provides some insight into the beliefs of some atheists. I hope I've conveyed that we're a diverse, non-organized group, and our beliefs cannot easily be compartmentalized. But the anger that exists does exist for a reason. I'm glad you took the time to write this column, and thank you for your kind treatment of atheists. I hope to hear back from you, and would love to hear any feedback you have, and begin a dialogue on this topic.

Michael Doss
Orange County Atheists
http://www.ocatheists.com

The words "strawman", "obvious"
and "puff-piece" leap to mind...

I am an atheist. I was born into a religious family and was raised a Christian. No traumatic experience caused my faith to falter. I just happened to be naturally curious and critically inclined. I could not rationalize the existence of the tooth fairy or Santa Claus and at a young age approached my parents and asked for the truth. Later, and with much more consideration and anxiety that same critical mindset led me to involuntarily conclude that the probability of God's existence was below the threshold of what I considered reasonable. I can't help the conclusions I've reached. It's like a doctor examining himself and diagnosing himself with cancer. He will likely, as I did, search for any possibility of any other conclusion. But in the end, if he is honest, then he cannot deny the diagnosis at which he arrives. I did not choose atheism. While I promote positive atheism, I believe the anger, which admittedly I feel sometimes (though I'm not constantly bitter as sometimes we're portrayed),comes from the fact that other people in our society who are marginalized by conditions beyond their control are afforded a degree of protection, however, as recently as the father of our current president our leaders were declaring that atheists are not Americans. One website that sells car decals and other merchandise for atheists has a policy guarantee that will replace any item that is damaged or stolen from your vehicle. This is actually a problem. Tell someone you are an atheists (especially in the south where I live) and most will react as if you have avian flu. The deeply rooted sense of animosity toward atheists (see the U. of Wisconsin study recently released) makes open acknowledgment a dangerous prospect. At the very least it will inhibit access to social networks and preclude many opportunities that would otherwise be available. Finally, it is very frustrating to see articles such as this one. While I appreciate the open-minded approach and have no doubt that Rabbi Gellman has the best intentions and can appreciate his obvious intellect, I find the failure to recognize the generalized animosity toward atheists and the social consequences associated with it disturbing.

mikebdoss...

Well f'in put, buddy.

Maybe we could write some letters to the President while we're at it. Here's a statement he made today while declaring that the 'Star Spangled Banner' should only be sung in english:

"One of the great things about America is that we've been able to take people from all walks of life bound as one nation under God. And that's the challenge ahead of us."

Yep, I'm pretty fucking angry.

i don't like religious people...i don't trust or respect them; i would be described as angry i guess....but i just cannot respect people who believe in ghosts...i only get angry within 50 feet of a church or a jeeezuz freak

Mr. Gellman,

Until about six years ago (about the same period of time Bush has been in office) I would have described myself as agnostic. I clinged to that term because it made me more feel acceptable to non-atheists. These were my friends, family and coworkers.

But when George W. Bush and his right-wing scheme machine hijacked America I was violently awoken. A president got on TV and started preaching about god, psuedo-science, and homosexuality in terms I had only ever heard from the likes of Pat Robertsen and Jerry Falwell. Then came the faithful. As if put upon and under attack, Christians the the right-wing punditry started to demand things.

I realized that while I slumbered, during the comparitively enlightened time of Bill Clinton, there was a kabal of angry, power-hungry men determined to take control of this country. And, once in office radically change America. These were not pious men. These were cynics and liars beating a psuedo-religious drumbeat and will to do anything. Political operatives who had no allegiance to anyone but the destruction of a government that would try to provide for the common good, and instead funnel those funds to their clients and cronies.

Then I started to read. And read, and read, and read. Day after day stories emerged. Goverment organizations involved in faith-based initiatives. Politcal appointees of the president admitting belief in the rapture as the basis for government policy.

These disturbing, surreal things made me ball up my fists and think "How can this be happening?" Isn't somebody going to do something about this? Doesn't anybody care? Isn't the separation of church and state part of our constitution? Don't people realize that having a man, who believes in the imminent rapture, at the nuclear helm is inherently dangerous?

So, I started to ask about those unpopular topics: religion and politics. I started to ask the religious people I knew what they thought about this. And, I was shocked to find out it was okay with them. This IS a Christian country, they would say. After all, the founders were Christian. They thought it was about time they got some respect from the federal government; that the Supreme Court had gone too far and it was time to get religious values back into our government.

I suggested to folks that this was troubling to me because I'm not a Christian. To which I was politely told, in almost complete consensus, that it was just a fact of life that minorities are ruled by the majority.

So I started getting angry. I started challenging the non-atheists whenever they paraded their faith. I began to feel that it was the duty of every atheist to make Christians uncomfortable talking about faith. To show them that if they were going to put their religion in the spotlight, we were going to point out the flaws. When I read "The End of Faith" I was emboldened further, and began to get involved in political action to fight faith in government. I saw it as a rot eating away at our greatness.

So what do I hope to accomplish, you may ask? I hope to pursuade religious people to abandon their faith, or failing that, go back to keeping it in the private sector. My child should be allowed to grow up free of religion and superstition, whether the faithful in their superior numbers agree or not. This is still a free country, isn't it?

Thank you for listening,
Howard Mandel

tomwright,

Nice letter on your blog. I noted the following typo that you might want to fix.

If the parishioners what the place to look extra spiffy for the Super Bowl, let them pony up the cash.

Good job everyone else on your letters. Interesting ideas and observations.

Put in my 2 cents worth:

Mr. Gellman:
I found your letter of great interest, as I am an atheist myself. Most atheists I have encountered online came to their point of view without a personal trauma that led them to choose as they did. Not all: but many. This is, if I may be blunt, a common stereotype of atheism in general. There is no absolute need of religion for an atheist to be charitable, kind, loving, or any of the other qualities you ascribe to the religious. Indeed, more often than not, atheists are remarkably well-behaved in comparison to religious members of society.
Believing in nothing, by the way, is another common stereotype, an oxymoron wrapped in a contradiction. I for one ‘believe’ in the great wide world around me.
Since Bush's inception as President in 2000 (as no doubt you've heard from other atheists in their letters), it becomes increasingly obvious that our otherwise secular nation is being turned to religious purposes.
One of the results of this is an increasing number of people are beginning to scapegoat the non-religious. We are told, "You aren't patriots", "you are immoral", or worse yet, "You aren't an American." We are constantly equated with hedonists, conspirationists, and all-out whack-jobs. We are vilified in both the press and TV, and are consistently treated as outcasts, lepers, unclean. Violence is done to us, as well as property damage. In short, Mr. Gellman, we should have our own TV show, and I suggest the title be 'The Last Honest Scapegoat'. The First amendment applies to us equally, and as well, as any other individual in this country. All we ask is this: that this be observed. With the words in your letter, I ask that the religious “to be good, kind and charitable people” as per their subset of rules that they seem to have great difficulty following.
Yes, we are angry. I would suggest, perhaps, that you look at the cause rather than the effect, or as the old adage says, “Walk a mile in another man’s shoes.” Then, I would guess, you would know the pathology of the anger.

Peace

The good rabbi claiming atheists to be angry is just parroting a standard right-wing talking point: why are liberals so angry? This is just a transparent (but effective) tactic to make their (religious, political) enemies look bad and unsympathetic. Don't fall for it.

Newsweek asked me what I thought about Rabbi Gellman's article. Here's what I answered:

Not much. Rabbi Gellman admits he doesn't get what makes unbelievers angry about God. Basically, he just doesn't get it at all. We unbelievers resent the religious throwing it up in our faces all the time, overtly or subtley, that somehow they are "better" than we are, more "righteous", more loving, more forgiving, on and on ad nauseum. We can have hope without descending into existentialist quagmires, we don't crave an after life, we don't strive for forgiveness, we don't accept that there is sin (evil, yes; sin, no), we find strengths within ourselves to cope with life and pity those who must rely on supernatural help to get through the day. Morality? There are far more immoral religious people, percentage-wise, than immoral atheists. Most atheists I know are ethical, kind, generous, good citizens... what else do we need to be? We can be "spiritual" without conjuring up a deity who inteferes in our lives. How? We look up at the stars and marvel at what is there and what we know of how it got there. We don't have to postulate a supernatural force that is repsonsible for it -- it just might be that's the way things are, no reality beyond all that. What you see is what you get. I would pose a question to Rabbi Gellman, and any believer for that matter -- give me a necessary reason (no semantic games on reason, please) for belief that does not already entail that belief in some way, e.g., that does not tacitly assume that God already exists.

If I could tug on Gellmans' coat for a moment, I would recommend a trip to Scandinavia.
We're a largely easygoin'-christian,
agnostic, muslim-immigrant-atheist mix... with buddishm, neo-nazism and jehova's witnesses and other myopics
thrown in for good measure- blend of countries.
But above all, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland... what we share is a sense of secular politics.
Sure, religion comes up OFTEN in our politics, but not in the
permeating sense that it does in the U.S.
In the U.S. they're deadly afraid of Islam extremists.
So are we.
But we're getting just as alarmed
at the U.S. Christian extremists.
The "The Bible says it's okay for me to slit your throat"-kind of Christian soldiers.
Because why fight an Islamic Iran,
only to face a Christian one in the U.S. twenty years from now?

Rabbi Gellman,

Congratulations. You have pre-empted the coming attack on atheists from the conservative media (set to begin with an upcoming book by Ann Coulter.) As an atheist, I am offended deeply by the generalizations in your column. Your view that behind atheism may lay ‘uncomfortable personal histories’ is quite disturbing. Becoming an atheist was a journey I started at the age of twelve. I recognized, on my own, that all religions deserved questioning. This coming from an alter boy who noticed many inconsistencies in the Bible. It’s been a decidedly tranquil path of discovery since then. My guess is, as a rabbi you have not shared much time with atheists or freethinkers. I know many of them. We are rational, law abiding and patriotic citizens who value the Constitution just as much as we relish our Camus. Paul Kurtz, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins are all atheists in the public eye and I wouldn’t describe them as angry. In the case of Ms. Coulter, she easily fits that bill.

Atheism, Love, and Morality

Rabbi Marc Gellman recently compared his opinion on the existence of the Judeo/Christian god with sports fans' love for their teams. The difference is that even the most rabid fan knows that there are other teams and wouldn't dream of forcing his opinion on everyone else — even on people who don't like sports. It would be ludicrous for people to do this and outrageous for the government to encourage it. If this occurred some citizens would get upset or angry, especially if they discovered that the team that everyone is supposed to root for doesn't even exist. No one has ever actually seen this team, but most people seem to like believing in it because it makes them happy and gives them meaning.

Most Atheists that I know are quite content living without the threats and enticements of a god we see as imaginary. We gain meaning from love and a well-lived life that can include helping others and working for a better world. We don't want other people's religious beliefs intruding into our government or our lives. We know that we are responsible for our behavior, and life is to be lived and treasured, not spent waiting for some illusory afterlife. We don't have the debasing idea that we are intrinsically sinful. We realize that Atheism is the simple conclusion that no gods exist, based on evidence and logic. Gods are just the external manifestations of both our base and good emotions. The supposedly sacred scriptures attributed to these gods similarly reflect the strengths and weaknesses of humankind.

Atheists see god-belief/religion as the excuse or source of some of the most heinous actions in history — slavery, the Crusades, the inquisition, the executions of "witches," the prosecution and execution of scientists and free-thinkers, the many European religious wars, the Holocaust, and of course 9/11.

Atheists know that fear and greed were at the root of those terrible things. Many also understand that enlightened self-interest and evolution-derived innate feelings have encouraged most humans to cooperate with our neighbors and to love our mates and children. Any ancient humans who didn't cooperate or love would have been less likely to survive in a tribe or leave offspring. Any humans who did cooperate and love would have been more likely to leave offspring. Evolution is the source of cooperation and love, not mandates from some god.

Morality and laws are the rules of interaction that allow us to function cooperatively. They come from basic human kindness, compassion, and our need to work together — not from some static scripture. Morality and laws have evolved as humans have evolved our culture.

Rabbi Gellman is correct in concluding that it's important to accomplish goals of improving the world. What's most important, I believe, is how we treat each other, not (as Dr. Watson noted) whether we believe in a god. We can all love and care for each other — if we so choose.

I haven't sent this yet. I'm going to digest for awhile and feedback is appreciated (but may be ignored :-):

Rabbi Gellman,

I'm writing in response to your column titled, "Trying to Understand Angry Atheists: Why do nonbelievers seem to be threatened by the idea of God?"

People's ability to understand is greatly influenced by their beliefs and the assumptions under which they operate. Frequently people are not even aware of those assumptions. I believe that you are operating under such assumptions based on several of your comments.

I have no idea how many "angry atheist" have written you, the content of what they wrote, nor what topic they were reacting to. But I must wonder about how many atheist have written you of which you are unaware? After all, we don't typically wear badges or have titles or initials after our names. So my first assertion is that it is likely that your view of atheist is skewed by the fact that you are not aware of the atheist who are not "angry."

My second assertion is that you seem to think that there is something wrong with being an atheist. Attributing atheism to some sort of traumatic event smacks of labeling a psychological disease. In fairness, presumably you are only referring to "angry atheist." Do the rest of the atheists get a pass on being part of a pathology? What about "angry" Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Did they choose their beliefs because of bad childhoods? If so, why single out the atheists?

My third assertion is that you seem to believe that people need religion in order to behave in a civilized manner. You say you believe that atheist can do good, etc, but then much more of your text is about how people need religion for these purposes. This is an extremely common belief, and as an atheist a rather tiresome one. It's ironic really. If you examine the belief, it is basically "God made humans, and they'd be really nasty creatures if it weren't for the fear of God."

OK, on to number four. The assumption that not believing in God means that life is a dreary, pitiful existence, at best to be tolerated. No doubt, there are people that live such lives, regardless of their religious beliefs. I personally believe that many people live dreary, pitiful lives because of their fear of God, should I use that brush to paint all people of faith? Anyway, there are a great many atheist that live, or have lived, life with great joy. Richard P. Feynman, Carl Sagan and Epicurus come to mind instantly. Of course mention of Epicurus may be dangerous because of how he was betrayed by competing philosophers. But I trust you would read his works rather than judge him by the opinions of his rivals.

I hope that my assertions will give you something to ponder about your own beliefs. But if I have offended you by telling you what I believe, then perhaps you could use that as an example of what it is like to be an atheist in our society. People are always telling me what I believe, as if I hadn't put serious thought into it and I need there input to set me straight. Which is more irony. Most people adhere to whatever religion they were born into. Most atheist I know were born into a family with some religious belief, and choose to be atheist.

Now I could write several reasons as to why an atheist might be angry given the current state of US politics, but I would think it should be rather obvious to anyone paying attention and I've got other things to do.

Regards,

Mine, of course, I posted a link to yesterday. I'll put a copy here, since this is the thread for it ;)

---------------

Dear Mr. Gellman,

In your April 26, 2006 Web article in Newsweek "Trying to Understand Angry Atheists" you seek to understand the reasons behind the anger. I think I can field this one. I am an angry atheist.

Atheists are not threatened by the idea of God. In fact, quite a number of us know more about religion than the majority of the "true believers." I, for one, have studied a great number of world religions on my own because they fascinate me. I can't speak for all atheists, of course. There are some of us who are ignorant of religion and choose to be. So too are the staggering numbers of Americans who choose remain to ignorant of atheism. Particularly concerning are figures like 47.6% of people that responded with "Atheist" to a recent poll question "I would Disapprove if my Child wanted to marry a member of this group" and the 39.6% that, again, answered "Atheist" to "This Group Does Not At All Agree With My Vision of American Society" according to a recent study by the University of Minnesota.

What we are threatened by is the infringement of our rights on a daily basis. Our children's rights to a bias-free education are threatened by people that wish to teach religion in public schools as if it were fact. We're angry because of the dim view we're given in this great American society. The very society we live in that touts itself as the most free society in the world. Our tax dollars are going to religions that we do not support; religions that are intolerant of other religions and especially of us.

We're angry because, despite great strides in tolerance that our country has made regarding race, gender, and sexual orientation we remain at the very bottom of society's opinion of minority groups. Our country only declared its independance 230 years ago and atheists were being burned at the stake not all that long before that!

Study of human psychology teaches us that if we change the behavior, the attitude will follow. You admit to "occasionally viewing atheists with the kind of patient sympathy often shown to me by Christians who can't quite understand why the Good News of Jesus' death and resurrection has not reached me or my people." I suggest taking action to be more tolerant and this view will change. Whenever you find yourself thinking things like this, consider how you like to be treated and how you would like to be viewed by others.

You say "I can humbly ask whether my atheist brothers and sisters really believe that their lives are better, richer and more hopeful by clinging to Camus's existential despair" to which I can most emphatically say yes! Yes, I do believe I can live a richer, more hopeful life by admitting to myself that I only have myself to be accountable to, that I only have one life to live and that I'm determined that it be a good one, and that - upon my death - the world will have been just a little better off because I was in it.

Sincerely,
Sam Thomas

I'm getting tired of the negative perception of atheists and secularists so I think this was a good idea.

I don't have a problem with someone practicing or believing a religion, but when they force their belief on others, I do. This forcing of belief is mainly evident by harassment homosexuals, the neglegance of science, religious extremism (killing in the name of an alleged higher power) and the governments unconstitutional endorsement of Christianity.

I shallst put on my pirate gear and ask the flying spagehtti monster for some strategery on this matter.

nice letter Mr Doss!

Thanks to all of you for your positive representation of Atheists. I seriously doubt it will be given any credence. The Rabi is in the public eye and will no doubt find negative examples in the letters written to him. Those examples will be touted as proof of his assumptions. I do not believe he wants to understand, I believe he wants to make headlines.

As a Jewish American he should be all too aware of religious bigotry. When Thomas Jefferson died he was in financial ruin. His estate sat empty for years. A group of Jewish people paid his debts and purchased the property to restore it in thanks for NOT making this a Christian country. Why would this man's ancestors be so understanding? Because without the separation of church and state they would have been murdered(or converted) by the Christians. I think that as human beings we deserve the same rights and responsibilities as his ancestors. Without the actions of our founders he would not be allowed to write the article that he has written.

Thanks again.

Wow...what an eye opener. Obviously lot's of misunderstandings on both sides.

Yes the rabbi generalized but it's interesting to note how many responses also generalized about religious folk.

Comment from: atomictesting

There are some of us who are ignorant of religion and choose to be. So too are the staggering numbers of Americans who choose remain to ignorant of atheism.

This encapsulates both the rabbi's letter and most responses in my opinion. So if most would like religious folk to understand atheists then the opposite should also be true. How do BOTH sides approach the other for better understanding?

One running theme though that begs the question...

What we are threatened by is the infringement of our rights on a daily basis.

If anyone would care to expand on this statement.
What rights? And where do those rights originate?

Many on this board are not Americans.

What makes me angry?

Q Have you been saved
A No,I do'nt believe in a God.
Q I'm so sorry, what happened so bad in your life
A Nothing,I just came to a logical conclusion.
Q I will pray for God to change your mind.
A Do'nt bother thank you, prayers have been found not to work.
Q Wht are you so angry.
A Because people like you keep asking me the same old stupid questions
Need I say more?

I have written this in response to the Rabbi Gellman’s article: Why do nonbelievers seem to be threatened by the idea of God?
Unfortunately, it is apparent that Mr. Gellman in his pre-eminence has a thwarted twisted view of the real issues that effect not only atheists, but the decent followers of the Christian faith. Please remember that the following views are my own, and not all atheists will agree with me. I am not writing this article to cause hate, but to try and make a point.

In response:

Why do nonbelievers seem to be threatened by the idea of God?

There will always be debates on whether a God exists - this is not the problem. Atheists are not threatened by the idea of a God; it is often the actions of those who are avidly religious that we fear, and perhaps something we should all fear. If atheists found evidence for the existence of any of the world’s proposed gods, we would be believers.

I do think they are wrong about the biggest question, “Are we alone?”

There could be alien life out there that has evolved, just like we have. I don’t understand your point. Do atheists say we are alone?

I will admit to occasionally viewing atheists with the kind of patient sympathy…

I also view many Christians and other theists with the same kind of patient sympathy. I understand that the vast majority of Christians are often misled regarding history, and the dangerous nature of their religion.

However, there is something I am missing about atheists: what I simply do not understand is why they are often so angry.

I have a great deal of respect for Jews, partly because they tend to keep their religious beliefs to themselves and tend not to demean or persecute those who take different stances in life. I also have a great deal of respect for Buddhists, who like many Jews practice their beliefs in a benign fashion. I have a great deal of respect for those who follow Krishna, again for pretty much the same reasons. In all those cases, when I have been in the presence of these people, I have never had cause to question their beliefs, and when some have felt the urge to promote their beliefs, I have politely stated that I am an atheist, and more often than not they have accepted my stance, and kindly dropped the subject.

However, although I understand that many Christians get on with their lives without interfering in others, many do not! The problems stem from those Christians who choose to use their teachings to demean and persecute non-believers (Including people who follow different religions).
These are the real issues that cause anger, and not the perpetual debate on whether a god is just fantasy or real.
I’m sure if entire communities went around claiming that your social group is evil, or immoral, and you are going to burn in hell because of some bias that is perpetuated in a book, you too would probably be pretty angry. Of course, these Christian notions have already caused Jews on many occasions throughout history to be persecuted, oppressed, and slaughtered, most recently with the Nazis who used John 8:44 on their propaganda to incite hatred.

Atheists have to put up with this sort of mentality constantly in religious communities. Many are afraid to mention their atheism (even when asked) in case of being harassed by these over zealous Christians. These people not only bring shame to the decent followers of Christianity, but this sort of Christian causes atheists to speak-out, and make a stance. This results in atheists having to take on the entire Christian ethos, to try to show them how wrong they are in their views, and in the process criticise the religion that the peaceful, tolerant more moderate Christians cherish. Remember, it is not atheists who start this perpetual battle of intolerance, but unfortunately the very nature of the teachings, and those who avidly adhere to them.

Perhaps their atheism was the result of the tragic death of a loved one, or an angry degrading sermon, or an insensitive eulogy, or an unfeeling castigation of lifestyle choices or perhaps something even worse.

Perhaps their theism is a result of indoctrination/brainwashing, or because they feel lonely so invent imaginary friends, maybe they cannot cope with reality, maybe they have committed a terrible crime and seek forgiveness, or they continue to seek forgiveness and continue to commit the terrible crimes. We can all play those silly games.

But our world is better and kinder and more hopeful because of the daily sacrifice and witness of millions of pious people over thousands of years.

Actually, if you decide to study history a little, it has often been those who have opposed ‘Gods’ teachings to some degree that has helped to create this better world that you speak of - with the likes of Annie Besent who fought for human rights, health care and education, and those who opposed slavery while the Church and many of its adherents (who justified slavery because the Bible is not against it) were profiteering from these people’s misfortunes.

I can humbly ask whether my atheist brothers and sisters really believe that their lives are better, richer and more hopeful by clinging to Camus's existential despair: “The purpose of life is that it ends."

Considering that thousands of children die every day from starvation, disease, religious, and political war, I consider myself to be extremely fortunate having a relatively long life. I think it would be extremely selfish of me wishing for an eternal one. Because of my one life, I try to make the best of the life I have, and try to get along with, and help as many people as possible, regardless of beliefs; unfortunately this can be extremely difficult when mass sections of society continue to condemn you as evil.

I can agree to make peace with atheists

Being as theists have teachings that induce its followers with a sense of hatred towards anyone whom does not believe, I think Mr Gellman would have great difficulty being at peace with others, but peace to you too brother Gellman.

The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. (KJV)
People who teach children views like the above, may just as well be teaching Hitler’s Mein Kampf (Yet another product of religion)


Thankfully, most theists don’t practice the hate that exists within their teachings, most, just like the rest of us simply wish to live a peaceful, honest, and happy life.

Regards,
Mr Cruise

Phreedm,

Many on this board are not Americans.

According to the current president as well as his father, none of us on this board should be considered Americans. So in that light, I guess the answer to your question "what rights?" might be "all of them, apparently."

Still working on my letter...

Phreedm,

If anyone would care to expand on this statement.
What rights?

An excellent place to start would be www.atheists.org There's a plethora of information there. Oh wait, you're already HERE but you apparently haven't read any of it. I'm not reposting material that's so readily at your fingertips.

And where do those rights originate?

The U.S. Constitution, NOT the bible. Somehow you always manage to confuse the two.

Many on this board are not Americans.

Then I'm so glad that it was our founding fathers, and not you, that decided what an American should be.

Comment from: atomictesting

The U.S. Constitution, NOT the bible. Somehow you always manage to confuse the two.

Hmmm...do I sense some anger?

Our rights do not come from the constitution. As stated on here before, the constitution is a restriction on the government.

Restrictions on the government make reservations of rights for the people.

I'll start working on a letter soon.

phreedm, shut up. Forcing your religion on anybody is wrong. It violates many rights. No matter where those rights came from (and they REALLY didn't come from the bible). You repeat the same tired arguments over and over; and they were stupid enough the first time.

Well, we've heard from at least one angry atheist...

Phreedm,

You seem to have a talent for angering atheists.

Lest we forget, we have seen many angry theists on here too.

phreedm:

Many on this board are not Americans.

Are you talking about the Canadians we have amongst us?
Because if you're talking about the US citizenry, then I'm gonna have to say:
You're not a 'true' xtian. :P
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
I forget where that quote came from.
Hehehehe.

I sent the Rabbi a quick email. I also posted it to both my own blog and to my atheist community blog at Livejournal.

http://community.livejournal.com/atheist/1270218.html

I HOPE you are talking about those that are literally non-american. I usually just sit back and read the blogs, but if you are trying to say that we aren't American because we are atheists, I WILL be an angry atheist. I'm currently serving in the United States Air Force and if someone ever tried to tell me that I'm not American because I don't share their beliefs, they just might get their teeth knocked out. I know, it's not a mature reaction, but that would seriously piss me off.

I would share my feelings about Bush's little comment, but for the next couple of years, I don't have freedom of speech.

Good for you Lacy! Thank you for your service to our country.

I look forward to the day when we get our 1st amendment rights back as much as you do.

I'd like to be an angry atheist, but I feel overwhelmed and terribly tired out by all of this. Why does being an atheist have to be so god damned difficult?

Phreedumbass,
The first ten ammendments to the constitution are called The Bill Of Rights!!!!!! Where the fuck else do you think our rights come from? If they came from God, then everyone the world over would have them. The fact is, our rights come from our collective acknowledgement as to what is "right" and what is not "alright". Those "rights" have been fought for hard and must be defended constantly. Again, if they were God given, then we could all sit back and enjoy them without having to worry about having them taken away by assholes like yourself that claim to speak for him.

warning rough draft still needs to be edited read at own risk of grammar and punctuation



Dear Mr. Gellman

It saddens me to read the article on the Newsweek website since I wasn’t already an angry atheist this article very well could’ve made me an angry atheist but to tell you the truth I am such a peaceful person that if fell into the stereotype you described I would standout amongst the crowd of overtly religion people in the Midwest the fact that I blend in the fact that I do not wear my non belief as an advertisement that I am a good moral person then go out and hate and spread anger during while not in church or even in church the fact that atheist rarely if ever start wars the fact that the prison population is less then ten percent atheist.
You know what all you hear in the news is the few angry atheist or you here a sound bite about some protest at a rally to protect science standards it’s a shame that atheist are so mistrusted and misunderstood if standing up for my rights to be a free and godless individual by peacefully helping people understand atheism by rarely raising my temper beyond a reasonable means to be heard over the preaching coming from the street corner Sunday christians or even in one instance the street corner rabbi trying to force there beliefs upon me and other passerby’s now the fact that I will never stand on a street corner and yell to the passerby’s that they need to be saved from religion the fact that I will not try and force all hotels to put Darwin’s origin of man in the hotel rooms the fact that I will peacefully work to advance the placement of those that choose not to believe in the facets of society does this make me angry well I guess by your standards it does.

Or does you being a Jewish rabbi does it make you angry that there are people out there in this wonderful planet that do not and choose not to believe in your fantasy god and your fantasy afterlife it would be easy for me to compare the holocaust to the struggle for atheist rights but alas their really is no way to compare to the fact that you are free to be a Jew where as some of us atheist still have to hide our atheism in this country and in other countries oh wait not unlike the jews during world war 2 and before to imply that all atheist in the world are angry is to misunderstand the atheist rights movement


Sincerely your nice and friendly atheist


Tony E Nurton

kinda off topic

logic

Logic and reality going against the religious mentality
It’s Freedom of we the people not we the sheeple
No religious bull shit no right’s to lose
Its time for us to find or groove its time to make our move
Angry atheists please stand up wait theres no one standing
Peaceful atheist its time we start demanding
Equal rights for all means freedom from religion
Separation of church and state separation of politics and sin
While there’s no atheist war there’s a war on religion
It’s disguised as a war on terror mistaken as war on oil
But is really muslim and christian in this turmoil

Mr. Gellman, the only reason you believe in Judaism and are a Rabbi is because your parents and their parents before them and so on believed in Judaism.

If you had been born to the family steeped in another religion, you would believe in that one, if you believed in any.

The number of people who change from the religion of their family is incredibly small. The real mysteries are why people believe or pretend to believe in any god at all, and even more, why they believe in the completely arbitrary rites of any organized religion.

All interpretations of religious texts--at least in relation to revealed truth--are equally valid or invalid. There is no way to say that one interpretation is more correct than another. Anyone can read anything they want into them and there is nothing to say that they are wrong. All another believer can say is that they disagree.

just looked back at my letter and I am glad I haven't sent it yet I completely forgot to mention I and everyone was borne an atheist the difference was I was not indoctrinated in to any religion

now its just getting it in there

reluctantatheist:

Are you talking about the Canadians we have amongst us?
Because if you're talking about the US citizenry, then I'm gonna have to say:
You're not a 'true' xtian. :P

Not just Canadians. Any of the residents of any of the four countries of North America can be considered North American, and therefore Americans.

Of course, any of the residents of any of the countries of North, Central and South America are 'American'.

island "Why does being an atheist have to be so god damned difficult?"

Try being a gay atheist...it ain't easy.
Is it any wonder that I'm mad as fuck with religion?

Alex

I totally get your point. I feel like I'm at the bottom of the food chain, yet if I look down...
You know, it really sucks that this is the way things are. I have a few gay friends. I live in the bible belt where that life-style is condemned by most, so my friends live a hushed down version of life here. Always in fear that someone will find out and what might happen if they are outed. Kinda like I do with my atheism, only worse, like you said.
I've been told that I'm awfully hostile towards religions and that I've hurt the feelings of some "good" religous folks in my group...sometimes I try to tone it down...but then I think, why the hell should I?
Fuck religion.

TW:

Not just Canadians. Any of the residents of any of the four countries of North America can be considered North American, and therefore Americans.

Good points.
I think Phreddy takes (not so secret) glee in stirring the pot. Instigator is the word that pops to mind.

I have been an atheist since I read Nietzsche at about 16.

I have never had any problem. In fact, I found it a good argument for meeting people.

I think it is a lot more difficult for people to pretend to believe.

Often they are happy to run into someone who is not a victim of their traditions.

Haha bernarda, consider yourself lucky. Everybody in my area is sickened by the very concept of atheism; to have an open atheist in their presence is like a punch in the face.

Mr. Gellman,

I am writing in response to your article, “Trying to Understand Angry Atheists.” I am an atheist, but I could hardly be described as angry. I laugh often (and not even bitterly) because my world is darn wonderful and I have much to be glad of. I have sunshine, museums, travel, volunteering, books, coffee, wine, chevre, trees, projects, dancing, animals, love, hope, dreams, and a belief system that encourages me to savor every moment of my life. There isn’t room for the sort of all-pervasive “atheist anger” you describe in the rich, albeit godless, life I inhabit.

I am an atheist because of logic, not because of trauma. I had fairly idyllic upbringing in the Methodist church, where I tried very hard to find the “spiritual bliss” of my fellow worshipers. I was baptized, twice. I’ve explored a wide variety of religions, considered the facts, and see no reason to fake something that just doesn’t make sense to me.

I sometimes find myself indignant- perhaps that is what you’ve mistaken for anger. No, I don’t want my tax dollars used to subsidize religious activities. I don’t want people to confuse biblical law with constitutional law. It does frustrate me when people equate atheism with amorality. I cringe when studies, such as a recent one by the University of Minnesota, find atheists are the least trusted group in the United States. Finally, it’s hard to resist a flash of irritation when people write articles beginning with the assumption that all atheists are angry. We aren’t all angry, but based on how we are sometimes treated and often perceived, a degree of indignation seems only fair.

You write that you “don't know many religious folk who wake up thinking of new ways to aggravate atheists.” Nor do we wake up every day trying to think up new ways to undermine the fabric of society, something of which we are often accused. Yes, I understand, not all “religious folk” are trying to aggravate us. Similarly, were I to play ACDC at full volume in a studio apartment at 2 am, I might not be trying to aggravate my neighbors. More likely, I just want to listen to my music. This doesn’t mean, however, that my neighbors don’t also have a right to not listen to ACDC at full volume at 2 am. I don’t have an issue with other people being religious, but I also believe that freedom of religion should include freedom from religion. Perhaps the “religious folk” you describe above could just consent to using some sort of religious headphones- or at least to turning down the volume a bit. They can listen to whatever sort of music they want; I’d just ask for a minimum of intrusions as I create own tune.

aviaa,

That was fantastic. Well done.

Aviaa-

Great letter. Well crafted. I hope he gets the refernce to ACDC though. The religious headphones metaphor is excellent!

I sent in a long one, but I didn't copy it or anything.

R4D & Zac-

Thank you both for the feedback on the letter. It was terribly fun to write and I managed to put off at least a dozen work-related tasks while doing so. :)

I didn’t even think about the AC/DC reference being potentially generationally bounded. Hopefully he gets it... or has a good working knowledge of Google. ACDC seems to refer almost exclusively to the band in the world of Google.

Ask your questions directly to godsquader Hellman if you live in NY.

Marc Gellman is Rabbi of Temple Beth Torah in Dix Hills, New York.

The superstitious coward doesn't seem to have an internet site to answer questions.