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No, Dave It's to remember those who didn't make it,those who never came home, and those who will never forget them or their sacrifices.

It is simplistic to say it is to remember those who never came home. Some of those who didn't were good people who did make sacrifices, but not all of them. Some were certainly not good people. Why should we commemorate them? Why should we commemorate Custer, for example?

As the Indians might say, Custer had it coming. Did Custer make a sacrifice?

Dave

You ask why not remember and improve?

Assuming an atheist worldview, why make an effort to improve?

Can we even trust our brains to think out what would be of the best interest of mankind?

The brain has developed for feeding, fleeing, fighting and reproducing, after all.

well this weekend i will remeber those family memebers I have lossed,
the soldiers that have lost their lives in this war, and those that have lost their lives in previous wars.

But I wont do it with supernatural trappings like some people will and I wont do it lubed up on alchol and watching nascar.

Well all that and I will be trying to catch me some bass this weekend.

Tony

"Assuming an atheist worldview, why make an effort to improve?"

Because noone else is going to do it for us.

FryingPantheist

What is meant by improving the situation and why should this be done?

To make the most of the time that we do have. If anything that is more important from an atheist perspective (Or more precisely the perspective of someone who does not believe in an afterlife) - this life isn't just a brief prelude to the main event, it's the one shot we get and for that reason alone it is crucial to make sure it is worthwhile.

Assuming an atheist worldview, why make an effort to improve?

What exactly is your definition of an atheist worldview? To us, it's the bettering of our species, the improving the quality of life for everyone, even those that only care about their own.

Can we even trust our brains to think out what would be of the best interest of mankind?

Seeing as thats all we have, yes. Basic things like food, shelter and health are in everyones best interest. Since you only care if they're saved or not anyway, why bother if they starve to death or die from having a bomb dropped on them?

The brain has developed for feeding, fleeing, fighting and reproducing, after all.

The words of a sheep who hasn't used but a portion of the brain he has. This really is a pessimistic view of our species as a whole.

My father is a former Marine but did not get to fight in Vitamin due to him being away at the time, although he really wanted to go, and I mean REALLY wanted to go. I'm lucky he did not, otherwise I might not still have him around. Vitamin was a lost war from the start anyway, did not do our country any good at all.

But really, although our world is a very hard and unpleasant one, all I ask of this world is that when I die, it is for something, not of something.

this life isn't just a brief prelude to the main event, it's the one shot we get and for that reason alone it is crucial to make sure it is worthwhile.

That's the whole problem with them, this life means nothing. So who cares if people suffer and die horrible deaths. If their saved they go to heaven, so it doesn't matter. It's ok to drop bombs on innocent children, not because god will protect them, he won't, but because they'll go straight to heaven.

Reverence and religion are two seperate things.

brodie,

Obviously an insane general's dream come true. If people can kill and feel GOOD about it, then war will be easier.

What has our world come to? Those people we kill and our troops who die for us, they stay dead forever. thinking there is an afterlife is just a sick way of people saying: "We don't want to think about true death, no matter what the cost."

I mean come on! If people think there is an afterlife of bliss, how can they possibly comprehend the sacrifice our millitary makes? That is just sick...

Anthony,

I wouldn't say they feel good about killing, but it has to take some of it away if they think somehow god wants them to. I don't think they ever think of it from the other side, the "enemy" still has family and loved ones who will grieve them.

Exactly, there's no coming back from death. There is no afterlife, so war is just a waste of innocent life.

I've argued with so many of my xstian friends about how I hate war. Iraqi children, as well as children in all wars, are killed for no reason. I see no way of justifying it. I've asked if somehow they view their lives as less importand than American children, but they never answer. It's very sick!

Brodie

What exactly is your definition of an atheist worldview? To us, it's the bettering of our species, the improving the quality of life for everyone, even those that only care about their own.

I thought existence was a battle for survival? Isn't evolution the thing for atheists?

Basic things like food, shelter and health are in everyones best interest.

Waitaminnit. Since when is what is best for everyone the point? Are you saying that survival isn't the point of existence anymore?

Since you only care if they're saved or not anyway, why bother if they starve to death or die from having a bomb dropped on them?

Straw-man.

The brain has developed for feeding, fleeing, fighting and reproducing, after all.
The words of a sheep who hasn't used but a portion of the brain he has. This really is a pessimistic view of our species as a whole.

Then what has the brain developed for? Please enlighten me

Brodie

That's the whole problem with them, this life means nothing. So who cares if people suffer and die horrible deaths. If their saved they go to heaven, so it doesn't matter. It's ok to drop bombs on innocent children, not because god will protect them, he won't, but beca use they'll go straight to heaven

Impressive strawman

I will tell you about a waste of innocent life

WASTE OF LIFE

A young transexual women is killed and her killers get off with a lighter sentence than they would have if she was a gentic female.

Thats what I call a waste of an inocent life.

A young transexual women is killed and her killers get off with a lighter sentence than they would have if she was a gentic female.

And this guy saying he's sorry is supposed to mean anything? And how were the other two men not charged? This is wrong on so many levels. Do you think if they had actally made it a hate crime, they should have, he would get a longer sentance? I'm not quite sure how this works.

Yes it shouldve been a hate crime.
and the others shouldve been charged.

but the question I have is why weren't they charged is it because of the homophobia in the community I really don't know but I will tell you this isn't the first case of this nature nor will it be the last unless things change.

we in the trans community feel like third class citizens when it comes to cases like this much worse then being an atheist in this country.

I thought existence was a battle for survival? Isn't evolution the thing for atheists?

Ok, first off, you didn's answer what your definition of an atheist viewpoint is. Second, evolotion has nothing to do with atheims. Many xstians believe in evolution. And anyway, by improving the quality of everyones lives, we increase our chance of survival. If everyone is happy with their life, less chance of war. IMO. There's still religion.

And just saying strawman without an explanation is useless. Are you saying you care about the "enemy" and what happens to them as much as our troops? I'm just repeating the viewpoint of the xstians I know.

Waitaminnit. Since when is what is best for everyone the point? Are you saying that survival isn't the point of existence anymore?
You asked if we could trust our brains to think of the best interest for mankind. Isn't that everyone? That's what you asked.

Then what has the brain developed for? Please enlighten me

Are you serious? What about creativity, inventions, charity, all the things that make us human.

I agree with udonman.

Trans people MUST have it hard since they appear so diffrent on so many many levels, which just drives both the faithful and the faithless crazy for some reason. People fear change, but I fear nothing. I like change, and I will go face to face with those who wish to kill others other than for self defense or defense of others.

There is one thing I do not agree with udonman though. I think ever murder is equally wrong, and malice, directed for whatever reason, should be treated the same way.

After all, hate can be traced to the same root, fear.

Brodie

Ok, first off, you didn's answer what your definition of an atheist viewpoint is.

Here it is: life has come about unintentionally and with no purpose.

Second, evolotion has nothing to do with atheims.

I thought atheism hinges on evolution. Isn't it so?

And anyway, by improving the quality of everyones lives, we increase our chance of survival. If everyone is happy with their life, less chance of war. IMO. There's still religion.

Theres 1000 000 ways to improve life. Do the ends justify the means when it comes to this?

And just saying strawman without an explanation is useless.

You create a false position that represents me which you then attack.

Are you saying you care about the "enemy" and what happens to them as much as our troops? I'm just repeating the viewpoint of the xstians I know.

Well since i am not american i really can't comment the war like you can. But i generally oppose it.

You asked if we could trust our brains to think of the best interest for mankind. Isn't that everyone? That's what you asked.

What is important? The individuals survival or mankinds? What does evolutionary theory say?

Are you serious? What about creativity, inventions, charity, all the things that make us human.

What are the natural causes for these traits? Creativity, charity etc.

Yes it shouldve been a hate crime.
and the others shouldve been charged.

but the question I have is why weren't they charged is it because of the homophobia in the community I really don't know but I will tell you this isn't the first case of this nature nor will it be the last unless things change.

we in the trans community feel like third class citizens when it comes to cases like this much worse then being an atheist in this country.

Going back to the article. It seemed like one excuse after another. He was angry for being hit on and he was on drugs and drunk. That's so pathetic. To me, murder is murder. No excuse is good enough. No reason can justify it.

It has to be because of homophobia. What their sexual choice is has nothing to do with the fact they were murdered. As far as sentancing should go. But because it does, we need hate crimes laws.

Goose

I thought atheism hinges on evolution. Isn't it so?

Since atheism has been around far longer than the theory of evolution, it's self evident that one is NOT dependent on the other.

My reasoning is trans or not...death is bad for both, so why treat the murder of a trans diffrent from any other murder? I'm just wondering...

Goose,

brodie: And just saying strawman without an explanation is useless.

Goose: You create a false position that represents me which you then attack.

Brodie's point is valid. Calling an argument a strawman without showing why it is so is a flippant response and has no epistemological value.

I'm not saying it's not a strawman, but I'd like to know why it is so. Otherwise I'm tempted to say that you are just throwing up a smokescreen (lying)

Anthony,

I tend to agree with you. Not a big fan of the concept of distinguishing regular crimes from hate crimes.

Murder is murder whether it's the pres or some drugged up low-life.

Anthony try to put your self in the mind of a trans when you hear about stories like this you wonder just how far the perp wouldve gone if the victim was a genetic female.

I dunno maybe I see it in a differnt way. to me It is a hate crime and should be legally defined by those standards.

HeatheNZ,

Thank you for the kind words, not many people really listen to what I say (outside this blog in the real world that is).

We could always spread tolerance instead of treating murder other than what it is: murder.

American Atheists is just the right organization to do that job, at least for Atheists.

Anthony Heathenz I do see where you two are comming from.

In an ideal world there would be no crime there would be no hate therefore there would be no hate crime.

but back on topic the reason I posted this story is so people will remeber those that are not being mentioned in the mainstream media.

udonman,

While I see your point, to me it does not matter how the killer discriminates againts their victims so long as they are never allowed to kill again.

It really does not matter WHY they murder really, they are just sickos either way. That does not mean I do not feel bad for trans people who are targeted however, I just don't feel these hate crime laws will prevent hate crimes, which should be treated like ever other crime in MY eyes. That is just me however, and I would like to hear more of your thoughts on this udonman.

udonman,

The media is just propaganda controlled by our government pretty much, so I doubt they will do anything worth while, although I do wish they would talk more about killings and less about sex, money and other useless stuff concerning celebrities.

The media should talk about the this upcoming holiday anyway.

Here it is: life has come about unintentionally and with no purpose.

You talk of straw-man and then make one yourself. Isn't survival a purpose? Besides, we give life meaning. It's what we make of it.

Theres 1000 000 ways to improve life. Do the ends justify the means when it comes to this?

Don't quite understand what you mean here. I'm talking about improving to the point where everyone has a chance to have a happy and fulfilling life, free of poverty and starvation. Where if they get sick, they can have the medicine they need. Everyone deserves this.

What is important? The individuals survival or mankinds? What does evolutionary theory say?

well to tell you the truth i am probably a little biased in this instance being trans myself.

so maybe I was letting my own emotions getting in the way as far as it being a hate crime.

not all crimes are hate crimes unfourtunatly right now I am getting to the point where I am about to fall a sleep on my keyboard (graveyard shift) but if you want to talk about this more email me @ udonman@gmail.com

Tony

messed up there

What is important? The individuals survival or mankinds? What does evolutionary theory say?

It's important for mankind, as a whole, to move forward. This doesn't mean leaving anyone behind. As a species, we need to take care of each other. That's how we survive.

You create a false position that represents me which you then attack.

Yes, and I shouldn't generalize like that. Sorry.

Well since i am not american i really can't comment the war like you can. But i generally oppose it.

What I mean is any war, any side. Most of the time they fail to understand the other viewpoint. I'm sure the German soldiers didn't understand any of the Allied viewpoints in WWII. Going back to what I said before, I understand not all xstians like war, I didn't mean to generalize. It's good to hear you oppose it.

Memorial Day, like funerals, is for the living since the dead are in a state of nonexistence. I think it is especially important for atheists to reflect on the loss of life since we undertsnad that this life is all we get. Life is all the more precious for us than for a xian who thinks that this is just the appetiser before the main course.

GH said "since i am not american i really can't comment the war like you can."

Yes because European hands are so free from war's bloodshed. Anyone else sick as fuck of European anti-Americanism as I am? Yes the war in Iraq was a mistake but it is just one mistake in a long list of unjustified wars.

Happy Memorial Day to all-spend the time contemplating those who are no longer with us.

Alex

alexgator1,

As a matter of fact I am sick of of Europe being so anti-American. I mean come on, its not like I hate the French for the horrific French Revolution. People need to look past our countries wars and into what makes this country great, tolerance (although we still have a long way to go).

udonman,

I can't use email until the 5th (kinda long story) but I will email you sometime and see what other thoughts you have.

Everyone else,

Random but: don't you hate those protesters who lay down on the roads but complain if someone accidentally runs them over. I mean, come on, it is a stupid thing to be on the road like that...hold up a sign. Its foolish to risk one's life so recklessly...

Random but: don't you hate those protesters who lay down on the roads but complain if someone accidentally runs them over. I mean, come on, it is a stupid thing to be on the road like that...hold up a sign. Its foolish to risk one's life so recklessly...

Has this ever been effective? Has any war or act of aggression been stopped by laying in the road? If they don't mind torturing people why would they stop from running someone over. They're just speed bumps.

HeatheNZ

I'm not saying it's not a strawman, but I'd like to know why it is so. Otherwise I'm tempted to say that you are just throwing up a smokescreen (lying)

I supplied an explanation. It's right there in your blockquote

HeatheNZ

Since atheism has been around far longer than the theory of evolution, it's self evident that one is NOT dependent on the other.

So prior to evolution,what was the theory then?

GooseHenry,

Unfortunately Creationism was considered valid before evolution proved Creationism wrong.

Brodie

You talk of straw-man and then make one yourself. Isn't survival a purpose? Besides, we give life meaning. It's what we make of it.

Well if evolution is true life cannot have an purpose.

If we are free to give life a purpose ourselves it is entirely subjective, and possibly has nothing to do with objective reality, right?

Don't quite understand what you mean here. I'm talking about improving to the point where everyone has a chance to have a happy and fulfilling life, free of poverty and starvation. Where if they get sick, they can have the medicine they need. Everyone deserves this.

From an evolutionary perspective isn't life all about individual survival? Why then care about the welfare of others (except where others survival benefit the individuals survival)?

It's important for mankind, as a whole, to move forward. This doesn't mean leaving anyone behind. As a species, we need to take care of each other. That's how we survive.

How do you make the transition from evolutionary theory, the indivuals survival, to the statement that it is important for mankind to move forward?

I mean there is no afterlife right? We have neither good nor evil to fear. We will end up as entropic dust, it is just a matter of time. Why then bother with improving mankind and not just my own life?

GooseHenry,

Helping others should make you feel better, plus, if everyone helps everyone, then you WILL live a wonderful life. Don't you love your mother? I love mine. This is a win-win for myself, simply because she helped keep me alive while I help her out and promise to take care of her when she gets too old to do it herself.

What is wrong with that? Our very NATURE almost requires us to help on other to life. For instance, helping a tree will help your o2 supply. An Atheist helping a Theist can have a double effect. The Theist will not think Atheists as evil (therefore one less bigot) and the Atheist will have helped a fellow human out.

I could go on with but in a short quote: "What goes around comes around."

Anthony

But you agree that helping others in cases where my own life isn't improved is pointless?

I do love my mother but i do not help her just because she has taken care of me. This goes for all people around me.

My original question was however: by what standard do atheists evaluate things as good/bad? These concepts are not found in nature, nor is there any natural cause for them.

BTW, my entire family is atheist/non-christian and i do love them.

Goose

But you agree that helping others in cases where my own life isn't improved is pointless?

You're not getting it.
The very act of helping others improves our own lives.

GooseHenry,

Most kind thing we do is from our altrustic instincts and are sans faith. Plus, Karen has a point.

Goose,

I assume you are referring to

You create a false position that represents me which you then attack.

This is a description of the term strawman. I'm aware of what a strawman argument is, my complaint is that you call it a strawman without explaining why you consider it to be so.

You need to say how it is not a fair description of your position in order for others to be able to judge your accusation on its merits.

Goose

So prior to evolution,what was the theory then?

The question is irrelavant. The point is to show you that evolution does not underpin atheism as you claimed. Can you admit you are in error?

Well if evolution is true life cannot have an purpose.

If we are free to give life a purpose ourselves it is entirely subjective, and possibly has nothing to do with objective reality, right?

According to what I was told when I went to church years ago, this life is meaningless, because it's what comes after that matters. But since becoming an atheist I've come to realize that this is the only chance I get. It matters what I do now, how I treat others. Every moment is important. To me, at least, evolution is the process of life. Moving forward, which is something religion doesn't do very well. If someone can better explain it, please do.

From an evolutionary perspective isn't life all about individual survival? Why then care about the welfare of others (except where others survival benefit the individuals survival)?

No, just the opposite. It's the species that matters. The individual is a part of it. Do you care about others? If so, why? If you do so only if it helps you, this is very selfish and accomplishes nothing in the long run. If I help someone, it's not because I'll get some reward in the after life, it's because that's just what I should do. Caring and helping others is an evolutionary trait, because by helping others, you help your species.

How do you make the transition from evolutionary theory, the indivuals survival, to the statement that it is important for mankind to move forward?

I mean there is no afterlife right? We have neither good nor evil to fear. We will end up as entropic dust, it is just a matter of time. Why then bother with improving mankind and not just my own life?

See above.

Hey noones forcing you to help others. Is this your viewpoint, or are you just posing a question? Is the afterlife the only purpose for you? Did you come to this blog to antagonize or for something meaningful?

GooseHenry,

I mean there is no afterlife right? We have neither good nor evil to fear. We will end up as entropic dust, it is just a matter of time. Why then bother with improving mankind and not just my own life?

I think you have hit the nail on the head as far as the benefits of religion. Right or wrong, the religions of the world have given hope and purpose when people could find none on their own, encouraged kindness and generosity and frightened those who would take advantage of others into treating them more fairly.

If one gives up on religion, then one is free: free to be selfish if that is the only purpose one can find in oneself. But I also think that, even without religion, there is a good case for caring beyond yourself:
http://embracing-reality.wikispaces.com/A+Case+for+being+Altruistic

You have been posting here for some time. Have you not seen any nonbelievers here who you consider to be caring or who you think have found worthwhile goals in life? If so, then this is clearly possible without religion, if not necessarily easy.

hey everybody,

I haven't been follow things here too closely for the last couple days, but I came across an old article by Ann Druyan (science writer and widow of Carl Sagan) that I thought I'd like to share. I love this bit about the Garden of Eden myth:

So here are Adam and Eve, who have awakened full grown, without the tenderness and memory of childhood. They have no mother, nor did they ever have one. The idea of a mammal without a mother is, by definition, tragic. It's the deepest kind of wound for our species; antithetical to our flourishing, to who we are.

Their father is a terrifying, disembodied voice who is furious with them from the moment they first awaken. He doesn't say, "Welcome to the planet Earth, my beautiful children! Welcome to this paradise. Billions of years of evolution have shaped you to be happier here than anywhere else in the vast universe. This is your paradise." No, instead God places Adam and Eve in a place where there can be no love; only fear, and fear-based behavior, obedience. God threatens to kill Adam and Eve if they disobey his wishes. God tells them that the worst crime, a capital offense, is to ask a question; to partake of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. What kind of father is this? As Diderot observed, the God of Genesis "loved his apples more than he did his children."

This imperative not to be curious is probably the most self-hating aspect of all, because what is our selective advantage as a species? We're not the fastest. We're not the strongest. We're not the biggest. However, we do have one selective advantage that has enabled us to survive and prosper and endure: A fairly large brain relative to our body size. This has made it possible for us to ask questions and to recognize patterns. And slowly over the generations we've turned this aptitude into an ability to reconstruct our distant past, to question the very origins of the universe and life itself. It's our only advantage, and yet this is the one thing that God does not want us to have: consciousness, self-awareness.

Perhaps Genesis should be read as an ironic story. Here's a god who does not give us the knowledge of good and evil. He knows we don't know right from wrong. Yet he tells us not to do something anyway. How can someone who doesn't know right from wrong be expected to do the right thing? By disobeying god, we escape from his totalitarian prison where you cannot ask any questions, where you must never question authority. We become our human selves.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2003-11/ann-druyan.html

GH "Well if evolution is true life cannot have an purpose."

Life has whatever meaning we give to it. Love is the ultimate meaning that we can assign to our lives in my opinion. This is why my immediate family and I are so close and practice real family values becasue we know how fleeting and temporary life is.
Also, from a purely biological point, life's purpose is to create more life (selfish gene theory).
Why do you need an outside agent to give life meaning? I don't understand why religious people can't understand that life is meaningful for it's own sake and that a god(s) isn't necessary to give life a point.
Alex.

R4D,

Thanks for the link. The story is indeed preposterous, even when considered an allegory.

Silly Goose is always entertaining.

"Then what has the brain developed for? Please enlighten me"

If Silly Goose ever got enlightened, I might begin to believe in god and miracles.

Silly Goose thinks life should have a "purpose". Why? Our purpose is to please god? What kind of wimpy god is that? What's going to happen in heaven? Do we get to suck god's sexual organs to get him/her off?

What has god ever done for us?

Brodie -- "Moving forward" seems rather misleading in the context of evolution. Consider the shark, who has been around a long time, or the chimpanzee, who sprouts from the same branch as homo sapiens, but is now endangered in the wild as a result of humankind. "Forward" in this sense is hardly progress. In the sense of change over time, "forward" says nothing -- things have always changed over time, even religion.

Also, I don't think the assertion "It's the species that matters" provides any moral guidance. Matters for what? The human species has certainly overrun the planet, and the planet has been harmed.

I would disagree that helping others only if it helps you "is very selfish," and that it "accomplishes nothing in the long run." I think we all act first and foremost in our own self-interests. Bono gets some deep, personal satisfaction in being Bono, George W. gets some deep, personal satisfaction in being Dufus-in-Chief.

It's an odd and complex world.

Totally off topic:

Just wanted to note that ABC is reporting a miracle....

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2008580&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

I would disagree that helping others only if it helps you "is very selfish," and that it "accomplishes nothing in the long run." I think we all act first and foremost in our own self-interests. Bono gets some deep, personal satisfaction in being Bono, George W. gets some deep, personal satisfaction in being Dufus-in-Chief.

I should have been more clear in what I meant. I was meaning more along the lines of an "afterlife reward".

HeatheNZ

You need to say how it is not a fair description of your position in order for others to be able to judge your accusation on its merits

The assumption that i only care if people are saved or not and therefore could drop a bomb on all of them. Not my position

Why only the memorial to soldiers. U.S. soldiers have killed a hundred or a thousand times more people, the great majority civilians, than their numbers that have died.

There were the Indian wars, the Mexican wars, the occupation of the Philippines in 1900, interventions in Central America and the Caribbean. In Vietnam about 55,000 American soldiers died, compared to 2 to 3 million Vietnamese.

Were all these soldiers really fighting for America and Americans, or were they just fighting for the American oligarchy and its corporate business interests?

Some of these soldiers simply enjoyed the slaughter, like Custer for example.

It would be better to have a memorial day for the civilian victims of war than for their willing or unwilling killers.

HeatheNZ

The question is irrelavant. The point is to show you that evolution does not underpin atheism as you claimed. Can you admit you are in error?

By all means! What was the atheistic theory of the origin of life before evolution?

Karen

You're not getting it.
The very act of helping others improves our own lives

So in the case where helping others doesn't improve my life i should avoid it?h

This thread is running out of my hands, no time to respond to everything

bbl

Goose Henry has asked the same questions over and over and has been answered (patiently) over and over.
I think he is being willfully obtuse,and I find it quite annoying.

Goose:

What was the atheistic theory of the origin of life before evolution?

Oh dear. How many times does it need to be stated that evoluton does not deal with the origin of life?

To answer the intent of your question: Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. It does not postulate a common theory on topics such as abiogenesis nor speciation. I do however think it safe to say that any beliefs held on these topics by bygone atheists would not have included supernatural influence.

Most likely they recognised that they lacked the knowledge to have a reliable answer.

But just to reiterate: Atheism has nothing to do with evolution. The two are not interdependent.

goose henry needs to finish high school, then come back

"Goose Henry has asked the same questions over and over and has been answered (patiently) over and over."

Goose Henry = Phreedum?

Did anyone else get what I was trying to say, or did it sound like I was just talking out of my ass?

bernarda,
Ramen, brother.

Alex,

Yes because European hands are so free from war's bloodshed. Anyone else sick as fuck of European anti-Americanism as I am? Yes the war in Iraq was a mistake but it is just one mistake in a long list of unjustified wars.

Yes, the Europeans WERE right about the Iraq war. The American people didn't send troops into Iraq to destroy the place and kill tens?, hundreds? of thousands of human beings. George W. Bush did, and that is where their anger lies.

As I have mentioned recently, I lived in Europe for most of the '90s. I, as an American, was always treated well and Americans in general are respected. It is our government, specifically our paternalistic foreign policy that has their pantys in a bunch. I happen to agree with them.

For what it's worth: As a disabled combat veteran, I was marching in anti-war demonstrations in the fall of '02 and spring of '03.

I fully supported the removal of the Taliban and the capture of UBL and Aymen al Zawahiri etc.... becuase we were attacked and have every right to self defense. That was never the case in Iraq and that should be very clear to anyone not still drinking the kool-aid.

War is a crime against humanity. Anyone that STARTS one, should be treated like the vermin they are. They should placed on trial in a worldwide forum, and upon conviction, be exterminated as an example to future war-mongers.

altruism may seem selfish(if it is done for personal satisfaction) but if it helps someone without harming anyone, then it is good for all of us. But what if it helps someone who is our competitor or enemy?...doesn't matter...honey is better than vinegar..period.

I'm still trying to figure out how evolution can be considered less credible than a story about a talking snake and a magical tree.

Anyway, my contribution to the thread -
GooseHenry in the "A new Gospel" thread, 04/29/06 @ 16:53:

For me, the issue of how excactly the world was created is not an issue. It is not belief in Genesis that saves, it is faith in Jesus. I come off as preachy but it's hard to avoid.

hahah ;)

preachy and superstitious...oh yes ..and irrational...like a 5 year old

Brodie

According to what I was told when I went to church years ago, this life is meaningless, because it's what comes after that matters. But since becoming an atheist I've come to realize that this is the only chance I get. It matters what I do now, how I treat others. Every moment is important. To me, at least, evolution is the process of life. Moving forward, which is something religion doesn't do very well. If someone can better explain it, please do.

But do you agree that something that comes out of a meaningless&purposeless process cannot have an intention?

No, just the opposite. It's the species that matters. The individual is a part of it. Do you care about others? If so, why? If you do so only if it helps you, this is very selfish and accomplishes nothing in the long run. If I help someone, it's not because I'll get some reward in the after life, it's because that's just what I should do. Caring and helping others is an evolutionary trait, because by helping others, you help your species.

But you deviate from classic theory of natural selection now. Survival of the fittest individual lies at the core.

Anyway mo original question was by which standard atheists judge good&bad

Hey noones forcing you to help others. Is this your viewpoint, or are you just posing a question? Is the afterlife the only purpose for you? Did you come to this blog to antagonize or for something meaningful?

in this case i'd like to know by what standard atheists judges good&bad

TomSD

You have been posting here for some time. Have you not seen any nonbelievers here who you consider to be caring or who you think have found worthwhile goals in life? If so, then this is clearly possible without religion, if not necessarily easy.

Sure, the people on this blog seem like caring&decent folk and humorous dare i say.

I am not accusing anyone of anything either, just asking for info.

HeatheNZ

Oh dear. How many times does it need to be stated that evoluton does not deal with the origin of life?

Actually, this is the 1st time i hear that. Thanks.

My question is then:

If there were atheists before evolutionarty theory, how did they explain the things that the evolutionary theory now explains?

I think, Goose, that you are attempting to fit atheists into a neat social darwinist box, but I'm afraid it doesn't quite work that way. I think you're trying to set up that if they don't accept social darwinism in a very cold and calculating way, then they are not being true to their convictions. I think this is a flawed argument to use at the onset.

You postulate that meaning in life is derived from knowledge that there is a god. I happen to believe that there is a god and I wrestle with the ramifications of believing there is a god. However, I think we all wrestle with our beliefs or lack of belief in god.

The reason the approach you are using is flawed is that it assumes that meaning in life comes from god and the knowledge that there is a god. If they were to use the same argument on you, you would say "because the bible tells me these things". The atheists, I imagine, would tell you they know what they know through research and study and have come to different conclusions.

Much of what makes life meaningful to a christian is the same as what makes life meaningful to an atheist: having a family, doing well at work, financial security, hitting a triple in softball (I did last night) participating in society in a positive way. To assume that an atheist always has a cynical thought in the back of their head thinking how this benefits them really assumes atheists are essentially selfish.

Could it not be argued by them that we walk around thinking about OUR salvation? What we can do for OUR religion? How OUR god is the greatest? Wouldn't that make us selfish thinking only about our myopic viewpoint? What's more elitist than thinking if people don't believe what we do that they will suffer for all eternity?

But do you agree that something that comes out of a meaningless&purposeless process cannot have an intention?

No one said evolution has an intention, it's a process. Natural selection.

But you deviate from classic theory of natural selection now. Survival of the fittest individual lies at the core.

Anyway mo original question was by which standard atheists judge good&bad

I didn't deviate, what's the point of the individual surviving if everyone else dies? Every individual is a part of the whole and contributes to it. IMO.

We've gone through what atheist believe about good and bad so many times on this blog, it seems dumb to keep repeating. Xstians will still believe we're evil and have no morals no matter how many times we explain it. Is this how you see us? If not, please tell me your impression of atheist. You've been on this blog for a while now.

things that are(were)unexplained are mysteries until theory deveoped and tested.....so intelligent people would say it's a mystery at the present time, or "I don't know".....only lunatics add one mystery upon another upon another to explain something.

spanders,

You are one of the reasons I keep coming here. If just one of my xstian friend were like you, it would be alot easier to proclaim my atheism to them. But they are very closed minded. I still care about them, we just don't talk religion very much.

In a way, you argued better than I did. Most of the things I cared about when I was still a xtian, family and friends, are still important to me.

Goose,

Again, as an atheist they had no need to provide an explanation. Atheism is simple a non-belief in gods. There may well have been a plethora of opinion on evolutionary type topics but this is irrelevant to atheism.

Evolution in NOT part of atheism (third time I have written this for you

HeatheNZ,

I even brought up the fact that many xtians believe in evolution. Unless he doesn't consider them "true" xtians. I actually started believing it long before I became an atheist.

Thanks though.

GooseHenry,

If there were atheists before evolutionarty theory, how did they explain the things that the evolutionary theory now explains?

I'll answer your question with a question of my own. How do Christians reconcile their belief in the bible, the works of an Omni-God, with what science has shown to be patently false? Heiliocentric theory, the fact the earth is much older than 6,000 yrs and of course, those pesky dinosaur bones, etc...

One does not need to be aware of anything beyond logic, to know a lie when they hear one.

Spanders,
You are a rare gem, indeed.

HeatheNZ, Anthony, Udonman, etc.:

Anthony wrote:

While I see your point, to me it does not matter how the killer discriminates againts their victims so long as they are never allowed to kill again.

I believe that federal hate crime legislation that has been passed recently (2005) doesn’t just deal with offering harsher penalties for discrimination, but also allows the federal court system to step in on cases that are deemed hate crimes. I think that this part of the legislation might be valid and needed.

In small, conservative communities, crimes against an often rejected minority (such as transsexuals) may not be properly investigated due to community bias. Similarly, were the case to go to trial, the jury and judge in a small community might allow its biases to affect its verdict and sentencing. In the end, this legislation seems to be less about giving those who commit hate crimes WORSE penalties and more about making sure that they are given the at least the SAME penalty as those who commit crimes against non-minorities, something that they often aren’t.

Article by ACLU on 2005 legislation: http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/gen/12252prs20050526.html

Fuck you all...
I'm mourning those of us who'll be all to easily forgotten.
Those who always fall through the cracks of oblivious convenience.

aviaa,
You make a valid argument. I didn't comment on the subject earlier, because I felt ambiguous about it.

Seeing it laid out like this helps me get off the fence squarely on the side of hate-crime legislation.

As demonstrated by the southern states repeatedly throughout the last century and a half, sometimes the fed's have to step in to see justice done. (and this from someone that leans federalist)

HairlessMonkeyDickK,

Fuck you all...

I'm sorry?????

I'm mourning those of us who'll be all to easily forgotten.
Those who always fall through the cracks of oblivious convenience.

You're mourning the winos, pimps and crack whores??? Good for you. You and Jesus would get along just fine. I wish more Christians lived according to the teachings of Christ. I'm quite fond of Jesus the philosopher, even if I don't believe in Christ the Lord. My personal favorite is: Do unto others....

Oh, and one more thing. Fuck you, too. Have a nice week-end:-)

LOL

Hey Ren and Brodie, glad I could bring something positive.

Hairless, good to see you again! Ren, just a note of clarification... Hairless is our resident danish atheist who has a poetic way of presenting himself. He's certainly colorful! But I think you're right, thinking about and doing something about the winos, pimps and crack whores is the right thing to do. I too am quite fond of Jesus the philosopher. One thing my pastor said that I really thought was interesting is that we as christians crucify jesus so often that we hardly let him live.

***On Topic***

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=7025

It's about a Wiccan vet that was killed in Afghanistan and his family is being denied the right to put up a pentagram by the DoD.

Before anyone asks what the difference in a religious symbol on public land and one on someone's grave.... even if the grave is in a public cemetary, the individual occupying that grave is that plot's rightful owner. It is an 8' X 4' X 6' chunk of soverign territory. Only the occupant or their family has a right to decide what type of marker goes on it.

Spanders,
Thanks for the clarification. I didn't think Hairless was making hay, so I thought I would have some fun at his expense.

No offense intended. Honest!

***off topic***
I just finished an alpha launch of the planned parenthood website (southeast):

http://www.pphsinc.org

Thanks for your help Reluctant!

Yo hairless Fuck you to.

Im right there with you man if it wasnt obvious with my other posts.

Hairless,
I have only been to Denmark once. Took a train to northern Germany. They put the train, minus the engine, on a ferry with a couple other trains on it. Went past several levels of large trucks and family cars before finally reaching the passenger area. Biggest friggin' ferry I've ever been on.

Anyhow, we went all the way north to Kobenhaven and had a great time.

I grew up with a small statue of the little mermaid that my father had picked up in the '50s when he was a sailor. Getting to see her in real life was the realization of a dream.

In the words of our cab driver, "She IS a LITTLE mermaid". I would gladly visit DK again.

Peace!

Getting back to the original thread...

Memorial Day is not about us. It's about what Ren described...

the individual occupying that grave is that plot's rightful owner. It is an 8' X 4' X 6' chunk of soverign territory

It's about the belief in an ideal...something that's not real and yet is so real...no greater love is there then to lay down one's life for a friend...

Memorial Day grew out of President Lincoln's Gettysburg Address...

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But, in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.

"that this nation under God"...

now you know the historical birth of the phrase...

GooseHenry,

If there were atheists before evolutionarty theory, how did they explain the things that the evolutionary theory now explains?

Read David Hume A Treatise on Human Nature

“A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence” - Hume
He doesn't need to "explain" those things that evolution explains right now. What he does do is create a philosophy in which people's belief should always be rational and evidence based.

Here's some information for GooseHenry:

Atheism simply means lack of theist beliefs. It does not mean anything else. Atheists have all sorts of views beyond that lack of belief. They are like cats. They don't herd well.

Evolution is a biological process that doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with atheism. It does not include ideas about the Big Bang or how life started.

Abiogenesis is not part of evolution. Most people who see the overwhelming scientific support for evolution know this is a completely different question. Unlike evolution, we need much more evidence to know the details of abiogenesis.

If one claims a god started the process, then they need to explain what started their god. It doesn't solve anything to add a layer of mystery to abiogeneis.

I don't understand some people.

Why can't the Veterans have their day?

Memorial day helps the veterans that survived deal with the trauma they experianced while on active duty. To some it's the best form of therapy.

I am digusted that it is being trivialized by some on this site.

It is a holiday for the living and if you choose not to participate thats fine. But don't attack my fallen brothers by trivializing their sacrifices!

There are plenty of other days in the year to celebrate "hooker appreciation day" or whatever.

Phreedm,
You quoted the second half of my statement...

the individual occupying that grave is that plot's rightful owner. It is an 8' X 4' X 6' chunk of soverign territory

But not the first part...

Before anyone asks what the difference in a religious symbol on public land and one on someone's grave....

CascadiaEventHorizon,
Veterans do have our day. It is called, (surprise) Veteran's Day. I have my Flanders Poppy sitting on top of my "shooting under fire" photo essay book on combat photographers, within arms reach as I type this.

Memorial Day is for the dead:

Memorial Day is a United States federal holiday that is observed on the last Monday of May (scheduled next for May 29th, 2006). It was formerly known as Decoration Day. This holiday commemorates U.S. men and women who died in military service for their country.

And for the record: During the entire time I was in the Army, I never once had Veteran's day off. I guess it's only for veterans that are no longer on active duty.

Phreedm,
Don't know what happened to the rest of my post.

What I was trying to get at is, there is a different set of rules governing what individuals do on private property and what groups do on public property.

The use of public property is bound by much more stringent regulations, including but not limited to, the 1st Amendment.

Private property is left pretty much up to the owner's discretion, save for some local ordinances and maybe a federal act protecting a particular species or habitat that exists on said property.

HairlessHoney

Fuck you all...

Me first!
Glad to see you back sweetie.
♥


As for Memorial Day, I was just watching a movie about Geronimo today.
I think we should have a national Apologize to the Indigenous Peoples Day.

"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion.
I could never give assent to the
long, complicated statements of
Christian dogma." - Abraham Lincoln

Rosemary
Great quote. Kudos, and t