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Post details: Oklahoma Acquittal
07/09/06
Oklahoma Acquittal
http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/smalko2.htm
For those of you who think there are truly two sides to every argument, and for those who want to know about a different kind of hero, read this. This is the full story of a family persecuted by illegal, immoral Christians who want to run this country.
If we don't fight, it may happen to you.
Comments:
Comment from:
tomwright [Member]
· http://www.wrightwing.net
Oklahomophobigodistan?
The only thing more these folks could have endured is night riders and lynchings.
I'll bet, if the jury had been polled, it was split and not unanimous. They just could not agree unanimously to convict and wanted to go home, so just called it aquittal so the could do so.
OK: Who still believes atheists should not arm themselves for self defense? Even if it was while retreating to another state or country for political and religous asylum?
If, after reading this story, you still think the religous fundies are gonna play fair and by the rules you are naive at best. I'll bet when the judge went into his chambers he was consulting with other fundie judges to find a way to void the jury verdict.
Armed, organized and unflinching is the only way to preserve your rights.
Two out of three is a losing hand.
The only thing more these folks could have endured is night riders and lynchings.
I'll bet, if the jury had been polled, it was split and not unanimous. They just could not agree unanimously to convict and wanted to go home, so just called it aquittal so the could do so.
OK: Who still believes atheists should not arm themselves for self defense? Even if it was while retreating to another state or country for political and religous asylum?
If, after reading this story, you still think the religous fundies are gonna play fair and by the rules you are naive at best. I'll bet when the judge went into his chambers he was consulting with other fundie judges to find a way to void the jury verdict.
Armed, organized and unflinching is the only way to preserve your rights.
Two out of three is a losing hand.
07/09/06 @ 13:30
Comment from:
Agnosticat [Member]
I had some friends driven out of Mississippi a couple of years ago just like this. There's no doubt in my mind that they would have suffered just as badly had they stayed to fight. It's a mistake to think this is just an isolated incidence. It could happen to any of us under the right circumstances.
07/09/06 @ 14:34
Comment from:
Da Rat Bastid [Member]
· http://the-atheist-prophet.blogspot.com/
You guys are right. If we sit idly by or think the courts will continue to protect us, we will end up the persecuted.
(I know, I hate that word, too)
How long until the fundies replace this judge with one of their "activists"? How many stories do we have to read that atheists are the most mistrusted and reviled people on the planet? How long until we all end up in jail or "indoctrination camps"?
Unflinching and organized, yes. Reluctantly, I have to admit we may have to arm ourselves. I hope we could find a place where we all could live peacefully while the godnuts here and in the Middle East wage their jihads.
I would add, we need our own land to defend. I know America ain't it, at least not any longer...
(I know, I hate that word, too)
How long until the fundies replace this judge with one of their "activists"? How many stories do we have to read that atheists are the most mistrusted and reviled people on the planet? How long until we all end up in jail or "indoctrination camps"?
Unflinching and organized, yes. Reluctantly, I have to admit we may have to arm ourselves. I hope we could find a place where we all could live peacefully while the godnuts here and in the Middle East wage their jihads.
I would add, we need our own land to defend. I know America ain't it, at least not any longer...
07/09/06 @ 14:57
Comment from:
Krystalline Apostate [Member]
· http://biblioblography.blogspot.com
As I see it, we have to be far more vocal.
No more suffering in silence.
The largest problem we have is 1 of image.
Note that when a celebrity is religious, the media mentions it. Madonna is a cabalist (misspelling intentional), Spears was recently plastered all over some tabloid about some religious advisor.
But when Lance Armstrong is blasting at us over the telly, any mention he's an atheist? Most xtians are unaware that Schulz was a secular humanist (& when confronted w/it, deny it outright).
Face it folks: we're branded as NHI (no humans involved). & when we ARE mentioned, it's ad hominem central.
We need to reach out & TOUCH some of these people (not the squalid, nor the violent, way).
I know it's easy for me to say: I can drive around w/a Darwin fish on my car, & no 1 says boo.
Too many of us are faceless: too many of us portrayed as the vaudevillian Simon Legree, plotting the downfall of morality.
But TW's right: we suffer from a distinct lack of organization.
We need more Godless marches. We need more protests. We also need to contribute to the respective communities we live in, all the while making it clear we are ATHEISTS.
In the meantime, we all need to train ourselves in self-defense. I practice 6 days a week, 1 1/2 sessions.
Because I'm a minority. & 1 of these days, some 1's going to take a swing at me when they find out.
I guarantee a rude surprise on that occasion.
So I'm gonna co-opt a motto:
Say it loud. Say it proud.
& don't back down.
The religious are social darwinists: they can smell fear.
No more suffering in silence.
The largest problem we have is 1 of image.
Note that when a celebrity is religious, the media mentions it. Madonna is a cabalist (misspelling intentional), Spears was recently plastered all over some tabloid about some religious advisor.
But when Lance Armstrong is blasting at us over the telly, any mention he's an atheist? Most xtians are unaware that Schulz was a secular humanist (& when confronted w/it, deny it outright).
Face it folks: we're branded as NHI (no humans involved). & when we ARE mentioned, it's ad hominem central.
We need to reach out & TOUCH some of these people (not the squalid, nor the violent, way).
I know it's easy for me to say: I can drive around w/a Darwin fish on my car, & no 1 says boo.
Too many of us are faceless: too many of us portrayed as the vaudevillian Simon Legree, plotting the downfall of morality.
But TW's right: we suffer from a distinct lack of organization.
We need more Godless marches. We need more protests. We also need to contribute to the respective communities we live in, all the while making it clear we are ATHEISTS.
In the meantime, we all need to train ourselves in self-defense. I practice 6 days a week, 1 1/2 sessions.
Because I'm a minority. & 1 of these days, some 1's going to take a swing at me when they find out.
I guarantee a rude surprise on that occasion.
So I'm gonna co-opt a motto:
Say it loud. Say it proud.
& don't back down.
The religious are social darwinists: they can smell fear.
07/09/06 @ 15:21
Comment from:
anadrol [Member]
Now that is a bone chilling account. Seriously though are we living in the 21st century? I hope the civil case goes well, and as for that 1st lawyer he should be disbarred.
07/09/06 @ 16:12
Comment from:
tomwright [Member]
· http://www.wrightwing.net
RA:
Fine and good for those that can, but not everyone can, for many reasons.
A firearm makes a 90 pound woman the equal of a 250 pound male. No amount of physical defense training can do that. Once an assailant is close enough to lay hands on the victim, it is over.
a firearm also makes a lone minority, (racial, religous, whatever), the equal of a lynch mob, at least long enough to get away. But only if you know how to use it, and are willing to. Which does mean some training, but you need far less than that needed for hand-to-hand defense.
In this country the fanatics are either religous rightwingnuts seeking legislate their myth-religion into everyones lives, or solc!al!st totalitarians seeking to legislate their political religion into everyones lives.
Both are dangerous, but the right thinks the left is disarmed. And they are right more often than not since the left has largely brainwashed itself into thinking that guns are bad and posses somesort of inherrant evil aura or spirit, outside of government hands that hold badges. (dunno why a govt paycheck imparts gun responsibility that a private paycheck doesn't).
Guns in the hands of private citizens are humanities technological equivelent of a procupines quils, until we come up with something better.
Guns in the hands of governemnt are tools of oppression when unchecked by the populace. Especially a government based on a religious belief, whether that is a supernatural or political religion. Look around the world for that evidence.
To face up to armed religous right fanatics, you must be armed as well. 99% of the time, just possesing arms is enough. It is that last 1% when they are really needed.
In the meantime, we all need to train ourselves in self-defense. I practice 6 days a week, 1 1/2 sessions.
Fine and good for those that can, but not everyone can, for many reasons.
A firearm makes a 90 pound woman the equal of a 250 pound male. No amount of physical defense training can do that. Once an assailant is close enough to lay hands on the victim, it is over.
a firearm also makes a lone minority, (racial, religous, whatever), the equal of a lynch mob, at least long enough to get away. But only if you know how to use it, and are willing to. Which does mean some training, but you need far less than that needed for hand-to-hand defense.
In this country the fanatics are either religous rightwingnuts seeking legislate their myth-religion into everyones lives, or solc!al!st totalitarians seeking to legislate their political religion into everyones lives.
Both are dangerous, but the right thinks the left is disarmed. And they are right more often than not since the left has largely brainwashed itself into thinking that guns are bad and posses somesort of inherrant evil aura or spirit, outside of government hands that hold badges. (dunno why a govt paycheck imparts gun responsibility that a private paycheck doesn't).
Guns in the hands of private citizens are humanities technological equivelent of a procupines quils, until we come up with something better.
Guns in the hands of governemnt are tools of oppression when unchecked by the populace. Especially a government based on a religious belief, whether that is a supernatural or political religion. Look around the world for that evidence.
To face up to armed religous right fanatics, you must be armed as well. 99% of the time, just possesing arms is enough. It is that last 1% when they are really needed.
07/09/06 @ 16:21
Comment from:
bernarda [Member]
From now on the expression should be the Bastard Bible Belt.
07/09/06 @ 17:12
Comment from:
karen [Member]
tomwright
The Smallkowskis(Praise be upon them all) have gone broke defending themselves against trumped up assault and battery charges stemming from an argument over prayer before school games, and you think firearms are the answer?
I understand that those who would have us bend to their will are, by and large, armed. How does escalating arms help? The idea of every Tom, Dick and Mary walking around with a weapon for self-defence is appalling and frightening.
What we need is organization and publicity, like RA said. We atheists need to be seen as human beings, regular joes and janes who aren't threats to anyone. Making ourselves into the new standing militia won't get that picture across.
The Smallkowskis(Praise be upon them all) have gone broke defending themselves against trumped up assault and battery charges stemming from an argument over prayer before school games, and you think firearms are the answer?
I understand that those who would have us bend to their will are, by and large, armed. How does escalating arms help? The idea of every Tom, Dick and Mary walking around with a weapon for self-defence is appalling and frightening.
What we need is organization and publicity, like RA said. We atheists need to be seen as human beings, regular joes and janes who aren't threats to anyone. Making ourselves into the new standing militia won't get that picture across.
07/09/06 @ 17:44
Comment from:
cry4turtles [Member]
Guns represent a balance of power. The people should not be denied the same firepower as their government. It's why we have the second amendment. Luckily, as a civilized nation, we have laws and courts, but who is there to protect us at 3 AM? Especially of the law and courts themselves are xian?
07/09/06 @ 18:38
Comment from:
sayonara [Member]
a sobering tale and the best current example of why there must be separation of church and state.
the christian right cannot be trusted to uphold the constitution if they ever get complete power. they are nutjobs guided by the supreme fairy nutjob.
as far as what to do. all i can say is this. in my life i have had to take 3 major stands on what was right (non-religious incidents). in each case myself and my family suffered the most when compared to the guilty parties even though i ultimately prevailed. i'd call all three pyrrhic victories.
right now i enjoy unprecedented respect and esteem in my professional career and i know of only one non-believer out of numerous colleagues. If i were to openly flaunt my lack of belief, i would likely lose most everything i have accomplished. if i, or anyone of us, lose our means it diminishes our value to the cause.
it would seem to be more beneficial to work toward helping elect candidates that are not of the christain right persuasion. ABAR (anybody but a republican)should be our battle cry in the next election and let's unseat these "dark age" religious barbarians.
the christian right cannot be trusted to uphold the constitution if they ever get complete power. they are nutjobs guided by the supreme fairy nutjob.
as far as what to do. all i can say is this. in my life i have had to take 3 major stands on what was right (non-religious incidents). in each case myself and my family suffered the most when compared to the guilty parties even though i ultimately prevailed. i'd call all three pyrrhic victories.
right now i enjoy unprecedented respect and esteem in my professional career and i know of only one non-believer out of numerous colleagues. If i were to openly flaunt my lack of belief, i would likely lose most everything i have accomplished. if i, or anyone of us, lose our means it diminishes our value to the cause.
it would seem to be more beneficial to work toward helping elect candidates that are not of the christain right persuasion. ABAR (anybody but a republican)should be our battle cry in the next election and let's unseat these "dark age" religious barbarians.
07/09/06 @ 20:04
Comment from:
Krystalline Apostate [Member]
· http://biblioblography.blogspot.com
TW:
Well, no, I don't agree w/that at all. But in lieu of 1-2 decades of training, it's not a bad point.
I was reading the Smallkowski account on God4suckers.net.
When the principle was going to expel the daughter, daddy Smalldowski beat the everlivin' crap out of him. I believe he left a bootprint on his forehead.
A gun is a great idea for the torch & pitchfork set at 3 AM, but it hardly would've helped in that scenario. Smallkowski mentioned that some of the criminals had badges.
Well, I'm a leftie, but I know how to use 1. Used to be a fair shot, meself. Probably not anymore. I also live in an area where arms are heavily regulated. For good reason. Oakland & SF have a high % of drug-related gun homicides.
I object to the things mostly because:
A. Most people aren't responsible enough to own 1, &
B. It makes people lazy.
But you're right in some points. It would dissuade idiots, such as the ones who throw bricks thru the window of a car bearing the Darwin fish. Or that prof who got jumped over his views on creationism.
We should not need the damned things. But alas, we do. We've not evolved past them quite yet.
No amount of physical defense training can do that. Once an assailant is close enough to lay hands on the victim, it is over.
Well, no, I don't agree w/that at all. But in lieu of 1-2 decades of training, it's not a bad point.
I was reading the Smallkowski account on God4suckers.net.
When the principle was going to expel the daughter, daddy Smalldowski beat the everlivin' crap out of him. I believe he left a bootprint on his forehead.
A gun is a great idea for the torch & pitchfork set at 3 AM, but it hardly would've helped in that scenario. Smallkowski mentioned that some of the criminals had badges.
Both are dangerous, but the right thinks the left is disarmed. And they are right more often than not since the left has largely brainwashed itself into thinking that guns are bad and posses somesort of inherrant evil aura
Well, I'm a leftie, but I know how to use 1. Used to be a fair shot, meself. Probably not anymore. I also live in an area where arms are heavily regulated. For good reason. Oakland & SF have a high % of drug-related gun homicides.
I object to the things mostly because:
A. Most people aren't responsible enough to own 1, &
B. It makes people lazy.
But you're right in some points. It would dissuade idiots, such as the ones who throw bricks thru the window of a car bearing the Darwin fish. Or that prof who got jumped over his views on creationism.
We should not need the damned things. But alas, we do. We've not evolved past them quite yet.
07/09/06 @ 20:24
Comment from:
Ren [Member]
tomwright,
That's not too shabby, but I think I would change that last d to a t. "Oklahomophobigotistan" There, now that's better. Of course, I neither condone nor encourage name-calling.
Oklahomophobigodistan
That's not too shabby, but I think I would change that last d to a t. "Oklahomophobigotistan" There, now that's better. Of course, I neither condone nor encourage name-calling.
07/09/06 @ 20:41
Comment from:
Charlie [Member]
Wow.....almost completely persecuted for not following silly superstitious ritual.....well....at least they wouldn't have been burned at the stake....progress!
07/09/06 @ 21:05
Comment from:
reason [Member]
some good points you guys have made how about a two pronged approach firearms for self defense and politics for offense.but keep it legal.accept this war on us will go on long after we are dead.
07/09/06 @ 21:09
Comment from:
notyourdaddy [Member]
The Smalkowskis are a great example of courage and determination. We can learn a lot from their example. They have my thanks and love for fighting to keep children from being forced to pray in schools.
I am going to make a contribution to American Atheists in their honor.
I am going to make a contribution to American Atheists in their honor.
07/09/06 @ 21:22
Comment from:
Charlie [Member]
Hey All Off Topic,
I've been a subscriber to Sirius Sat Radio since Howard Stern began broadcasting on it......If you can get past the crudeness....you will find an honest, entertaining, insightful observation of everyday life......No More Bullshit.......you can even hear the show through the Internet now.......it is for adults only....it is where the rubber meets the road reality....it is very entertaining....check it out
piece
I've been a subscriber to Sirius Sat Radio since Howard Stern began broadcasting on it......If you can get past the crudeness....you will find an honest, entertaining, insightful observation of everyday life......No More Bullshit.......you can even hear the show through the Internet now.......it is for adults only....it is where the rubber meets the road reality....it is very entertaining....check it out
piece
07/09/06 @ 21:27
Comment from:
notyourdaddy [Member]
Well I donated $100 but there was no place to add a comment to say in honor of the Smalkowskis so I'm saying it here.
Thanks
Thanks
07/09/06 @ 21:36
Comment from:
alexatheist [Member]
That something like this could happen in America in the year 2006 is so amazingly insane that I'm still trying to figure out if this could be a joke. I know it is not but I want and need to believe that this is make believe. I have lived as an outsider in the rural South for more of life (rural Appalachia and now small college town in NC) than I have lived outside of the South and have never had anything remotley like this happen to me in spite of my openess with being gay and an atheist. Can this really happen in the USA? I am just absolutely flabbergasted and thankful that at least NC ain't OK (or TX).
Alex.
Alex.
07/09/06 @ 21:54
Comment from:
pixel [Member]
*****OFF TOPIC*****
To Scobysnx and ForensicAtheist
I posted a response to you guys over on the "NJ Shuts Down" thread.
Doesn't look like anyone has posted there for the past 24 hours, so wanted to give you a heads up.
To Scobysnx and ForensicAtheist
I posted a response to you guys over on the "NJ Shuts Down" thread.
Doesn't look like anyone has posted there for the past 24 hours, so wanted to give you a heads up.
07/09/06 @ 23:11
Comment from:
mxracer652 [Member]
Is there a way to donate to the family to offset their expense? Through AA? David?
07/09/06 @ 23:42
Comment from:
ybgirp [Member]
This is as shocking as the homophobia smalltown gays have endured forever.
We all know most government decisions are irrational... the reason for that, is childhood brainwashing. The efort to convince the brain that there are supernatural things; there's a superman in the sky; god is watching you masturbate and knows your every thought... destroys a person's ability to think rationally.
Next time you're talking to someone, mention the latest idiot political or judicial decision that everyone agrees is bad, and point out, quietly, that it is almost certainly this problem with rationality and religion, that is the cause of the poor decision.
Slowly the idea will spread.There are many more unbelievers out there than you realise -- they are simply too frightened to admit it.
We all know most government decisions are irrational... the reason for that, is childhood brainwashing. The efort to convince the brain that there are supernatural things; there's a superman in the sky; god is watching you masturbate and knows your every thought... destroys a person's ability to think rationally.
Next time you're talking to someone, mention the latest idiot political or judicial decision that everyone agrees is bad, and point out, quietly, that it is almost certainly this problem with rationality and religion, that is the cause of the poor decision.
Slowly the idea will spread.There are many more unbelievers out there than you realise -- they are simply too frightened to admit it.
07/10/06 @ 01:12
Comment from:
bernarda [Member]
Remember the old xtian war slogan,
"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition."
Also, Bob Dylan's "With God on Our Side" is pertinent.
"Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.
Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.
Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.
Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.
When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.
I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.
But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.
In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.
So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war."
"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition."
Also, Bob Dylan's "With God on Our Side" is pertinent.
"Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.
Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.
Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.
Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.
When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.
I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.
But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.
In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.
So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war."
07/10/06 @ 03:14
Comment from:
Krystalline Apostate [Member]
· http://biblioblography.blogspot.com
I for 1 am seriously interested in phreddy's take on all this. This really casts his religion in a horrible light.
I find the silence eery....
I find the silence eery....
07/10/06 @ 04:34
Comment from:
cry4turtles [Member]
"There are many more unbelievers out there than you realise -- they are simply too frightened to admit it."
I agree with ybgrip. I wish I could shout my atheism from the mountain tops, but I can't. I wouldn't lose any friends. Most bikers aren't too concerned about what god thinks. However, my job is different. I serve children in conservative xian homes. 3/4 of my caseload would be lost. I can care less about their parent's delusions. If I can't get through the door, I can't help the children. Atheism has set me free, but my #1 priority is to help children with communication delays learn to speak. I actually bow my head in prayer if the family requests. No matter if I'm pondering whether I have enough taco meat for supper while they pray. The joy of hearing a previously silent 2 year old proclaim "amen!" is adequate compensation for me "selling out".
I hope this doesn't shine a negative light on me in this community (blog). Does anybody else have to sell out? Does it make you feel guilty?
I agree with ybgrip. I wish I could shout my atheism from the mountain tops, but I can't. I wouldn't lose any friends. Most bikers aren't too concerned about what god thinks. However, my job is different. I serve children in conservative xian homes. 3/4 of my caseload would be lost. I can care less about their parent's delusions. If I can't get through the door, I can't help the children. Atheism has set me free, but my #1 priority is to help children with communication delays learn to speak. I actually bow my head in prayer if the family requests. No matter if I'm pondering whether I have enough taco meat for supper while they pray. The joy of hearing a previously silent 2 year old proclaim "amen!" is adequate compensation for me "selling out".
I hope this doesn't shine a negative light on me in this community (blog). Does anybody else have to sell out? Does it make you feel guilty?
07/10/06 @ 07:44
Comment from:
anadrol [Member]
Does anybody else have to sell out?Nope, I'm lucky that my work environment is a sensible place. We don't let personal beliefs get in the way of work or friendships for that matter.
07/10/06 @ 08:33
Comment from:
phreedm [Member]
Comment from: reluctantatheist
RA,
I'm searching for a piece that's a little bit more objective. I mean really. The "Democraticunderground.com" as a source? Have you ever read some of the whacky comments made there? Sheesh...
Dave has used some pretty far left sites to stir up the troops. Let's not forget the one about Rove...
As soon as I find an article that doesn't spew so much hatred instead of facts I'll be glad to respond.
And a word to the wise...as I always say, follow the money. This piece was written to do nothing but play on peoples emotions. Hardly any facts at all. And from the responses from some it sure seems people would be more then willing to part with their hard earned cash to reward Mr Smalkowski.
This piece reminds me of some of those Far Left movies about Iraq that some use as their own personal gospel...
I for 1 am seriously interested in phreddy's take on all this.
RA,
I'm searching for a piece that's a little bit more objective. I mean really. The "Democraticunderground.com" as a source? Have you ever read some of the whacky comments made there? Sheesh...
Dave has used some pretty far left sites to stir up the troops. Let's not forget the one about Rove...
As soon as I find an article that doesn't spew so much hatred instead of facts I'll be glad to respond.
And a word to the wise...as I always say, follow the money. This piece was written to do nothing but play on peoples emotions. Hardly any facts at all. And from the responses from some it sure seems people would be more then willing to part with their hard earned cash to reward Mr Smalkowski.
This piece reminds me of some of those Far Left movies about Iraq that some use as their own personal gospel...
07/10/06 @ 08:58
Comment from:
Bones [Member]
phreed, I've seen several articles on this story, and it seems that the "hate" is just there. Most of it coming from your "fellow" christians. How in the hell do they justify this? Is it anything goes as long as you save a soul?
Why is it so difficult for christians to live and let live. I really don't care about what they believe, and have no interest in their mythical practices.
I often wonder how a christian would react if our pledge said "under NO GOD".
but, hey, we're the ones being unreasonable, right?
Why is it so difficult for christians to live and let live. I really don't care about what they believe, and have no interest in their mythical practices.
I often wonder how a christian would react if our pledge said "under NO GOD".
but, hey, we're the ones being unreasonable, right?
07/10/06 @ 10:18
Comment from:
suttsteve [Member]
It's good to see that Justice is still blind. If this were truly a Christian nation, she wouldn't be.
07/10/06 @ 10:29
Comment from:
Smartypants [Member]
· http://www.opengavel.com/
I am amazed how negatively most people here have viewed this story. Didn't he win?
Rather than proof of how bad Okie or the bible belt is, isn't this proof of the contrary? It seems that the judge and jury were reasonable.
As an attorney, I am impressed that the (seemingly) correct decision was made the first time. There are plenty of other cases that take multiple appeals to arrive at justice and even then it may not happen.
I also agree with phreedm that I would rather read a more objective fact-heavy account of this case. The same critical mind that rejects religion should reject one-sided accounts.
07/10/06 @ 10:46
Comment from:
Bones [Member]
Interesting....and WOW.
I've been searching all morning. It seems the mainstream press (newpaper, TV, internet) doesn't want to cover this story!! I guess because it shows the persecution BY christians instead of against them. (history repeats itself?)
It's telling how little information can be found outside of the atheist community!
I've been searching all morning. It seems the mainstream press (newpaper, TV, internet) doesn't want to cover this story!! I guess because it shows the persecution BY christians instead of against them. (history repeats itself?)
It's telling how little information can be found outside of the atheist community!
07/10/06 @ 10:54
Comment from:
beechfront [Member]
This article seems very one sided. He goes on and on about how evil christians are (the whole.
"I assume I need not have to explain about the loving hymns sung in church on Sunday and beatings of black slaves on Monday. But on Monday night the good old Master has a little tippy toe over to slave huts for a little brown sugar. While the queen of the manor is in the master bedroom past out on an opium tonic. Praise the Lord!"
from this point on i questioned the intent of this story. The whole time I was waiting to read about what exactly happened between him in the principal.
in the end, I hate to say but I agree with phreedm. knowing no more about this incident than I do - my feeling is that this story was written to play on peoples emotions in hopes they will send money.
please correct me if i'm wrong, as i have little knowledge of this incident.
and what are all the talks about guns? i am anything but anti-gun - but i cringe at the mere thought of a gunfight between xtians and atheists. i thought we were past that way of thinking.
"I assume I need not have to explain about the loving hymns sung in church on Sunday and beatings of black slaves on Monday. But on Monday night the good old Master has a little tippy toe over to slave huts for a little brown sugar. While the queen of the manor is in the master bedroom past out on an opium tonic. Praise the Lord!"
from this point on i questioned the intent of this story. The whole time I was waiting to read about what exactly happened between him in the principal.
in the end, I hate to say but I agree with phreedm. knowing no more about this incident than I do - my feeling is that this story was written to play on peoples emotions in hopes they will send money.
please correct me if i'm wrong, as i have little knowledge of this incident.
and what are all the talks about guns? i am anything but anti-gun - but i cringe at the mere thought of a gunfight between xtians and atheists. i thought we were past that way of thinking.
07/10/06 @ 10:56
Comment from:
Bones [Member]
Still looking for something - anything that I can find from a mainstream press organization that covered this.....
still wondering why they didn't?
If this had happened to a catholic because they were catholic, a protestant because they were prodestant, IT WOULD BE PAGE 1 AND LEAD THE NIGHTLY NEWS.
WTF?
anyone else looking?
still wondering why they didn't?
If this had happened to a catholic because they were catholic, a protestant because they were prodestant, IT WOULD BE PAGE 1 AND LEAD THE NIGHTLY NEWS.
WTF?
anyone else looking?
07/10/06 @ 11:05
Comment from:
HeatheNZ [Member]
· http://www.heathenz.bravehost.com
smarty,
I agree with what you and phreedm wrote.
It's indeed encouraging that the verdict was not guilty the first time around.
This is the second time I've seen this case come up on this blog, and both times it's had a ring of "this is not the whole story" about it. I did a quick search this time and found many references to the case but nothing that I'd call a balanced account.
Phreedm,
I agree with your stand on looking for a more neutral commentary on the case, however I feel it's important to recongnise that this can be equated in its seeming partisanship to many of the article you post (typically from sources such as worldnetdaily and FauxNews). So I trust you'll excuse me if I do not take them at face value.
I agree with what you and phreedm wrote.
It's indeed encouraging that the verdict was not guilty the first time around.
This is the second time I've seen this case come up on this blog, and both times it's had a ring of "this is not the whole story" about it. I did a quick search this time and found many references to the case but nothing that I'd call a balanced account.
Phreedm,
I agree with your stand on looking for a more neutral commentary on the case, however I feel it's important to recongnise that this can be equated in its seeming partisanship to many of the article you post (typically from sources such as worldnetdaily and FauxNews). So I trust you'll excuse me if I do not take them at face value.
07/10/06 @ 11:11
Comment from:
HeatheNZ [Member]
· http://www.heathenz.bravehost.com
Bones,
I took a look in the mainstream press too and came up empty-handed. My reaction to that is to treat the story with greater suspicion rather than to think it a conspiracy theory.
I'll keep looking though
btw, good to see you have returned despite the continuing vitriolic grenades still being tossed by javier. (Actually I rarely get past the first sentence of his comments these days - so I don't really know what he's saying other than what's quoted in retorts)
I took a look in the mainstream press too and came up empty-handed. My reaction to that is to treat the story with greater suspicion rather than to think it a conspiracy theory.
I'll keep looking though
btw, good to see you have returned despite the continuing vitriolic grenades still being tossed by javier. (Actually I rarely get past the first sentence of his comments these days - so I don't really know what he's saying other than what's quoted in retorts)
07/10/06 @ 11:17
Comment from:
Bones [Member]
http://friends.macjournals.com/mattd/newsItems/departments/somethingLargerThanOurselves
(facts as found by the jury?)
a little bit, but not much here.
checking legal databases now....not sure how long before it appears there.
(facts as found by the jury?)
a little bit, but not much here.
checking legal databases now....not sure how long before it appears there.
07/10/06 @ 11:36
Comment from:
anadrol [Member]
Is j still around? Haven't seen him the last couple of topics.
07/10/06 @ 12:11
Comment from:
Krystalline Apostate [Member]
· http://biblioblography.blogspot.com
phreddy:
Well, I didn't get the story from Democraticunderground.com. I hadn't heard of it until you mentioned it.
I think this goes to the distinct lack of PR we receive. Remember Ellen Johnson on that Dateline (60 mins) episode? She got what, 2-3 minutes?
Mind you, this is a guess, but I'd say that most newspaper sources would avoid a story like this, mostly because:
A. It treads on PC eggshells (criticize religion? We can't DO that), &
B. (I'm guessing here as well) atheists don't really invoke that warm fuzzy feeling as a human interest story.
There seems to be a distinct double-standard in journalism: if the focus of the piece is religious, bring it up.
http://www.gdherald.com/articles/2005/11/23/news/news01.txt
Oh, & you still owe me an apology.
Well, I didn't get the story from Democraticunderground.com. I hadn't heard of it until you mentioned it.
I think this goes to the distinct lack of PR we receive. Remember Ellen Johnson on that Dateline (60 mins) episode? She got what, 2-3 minutes?
Mind you, this is a guess, but I'd say that most newspaper sources would avoid a story like this, mostly because:
A. It treads on PC eggshells (criticize religion? We can't DO that), &
B. (I'm guessing here as well) atheists don't really invoke that warm fuzzy feeling as a human interest story.
There seems to be a distinct double-standard in journalism: if the focus of the piece is religious, bring it up.
http://www.gdherald.com/articles/2005/11/23/news/news01.txt
Oh, & you still owe me an apology.
07/10/06 @ 12:12
Comment from:
karen [Member]
anadrol
Shhhhhhh!
Shhhhhhh!
07/10/06 @ 12:35
Comment from:
Soldier_of_Wisdom [Member]
There needs to be localized atheist support groups.
When events like this happen, Atheist need to rally to support individuals like this.
American Atheist need to design a system in which they can email the state or county atheist's to come and support.
This man shouldnt have been in court alone. Its sad to see so many folks in his state with no back bone.
When events like this happen, Atheist need to rally to support individuals like this.
American Atheist need to design a system in which they can email the state or county atheist's to come and support.
This man shouldnt have been in court alone. Its sad to see so many folks in his state with no back bone.
07/10/06 @ 14:04
Comment from:
Smartypants [Member]
· http://www.opengavel.com/
If the only information I recieved on this case was what AA provided I don't think I would have shown up (if I was local) and not because of a lack of back bone.
I think the PR and getting atheists to be active is tied into the other comments above about having more facts and less purely emotional appeal. Even if the organization is biased it doesn't mean the information it provides has to be. I give a slight pass to the item above to the extent that it was written by the guy involved and I assume he's not a journalist. But it would be nice to see more objective information and facts (how do I know that this guy didn't attack the principal? Was it the correct verdict?) I am not saying he's lying but how would I know if he was? How would you?
P.S., the case would likely not appear in the legal databases because it is a state trial court verdict. Most DB only report state appealed decisions and federal trial proceedings.
07/10/06 @ 16:41
Comment from:
Krystalline Apostate [Member]
· http://biblioblography.blogspot.com
Smarty:
Unfortunately, people vote & decide w/their emotions, most of the time.
My amateur observations of the human condition leads me to this:
there is only action thru overreaction.
I think the PR and getting atheists to be active is tied into the other comments above about having more facts and less purely emotional appeal.
Unfortunately, people vote & decide w/their emotions, most of the time.
My amateur observations of the human condition leads me to this:
there is only action thru overreaction.
07/10/06 @ 17:06
Comment from:
phreedm [Member]
Comment from: HeatheNZ [Member] ·
A very safe way to view ALL news...
Tell you what. When I quote either source I'll include a second to prove the point...
Something about this story just doesn't click...I'm still working on it.
If true, I believe the sharks for AA will see a paycheck up for grabs...
So I trust you'll excuse me if I do not take them at face value.
A very safe way to view ALL news...
Tell you what. When I quote either source I'll include a second to prove the point...
Something about this story just doesn't click...I'm still working on it.
If true, I believe the sharks for AA will see a paycheck up for grabs...
07/11/06 @ 00:42
Comment from:
atomictesting [Member]
The idea of every Tom, Dick and Mary walking around with a weapon for self-defence is appalling and frightening.
Karen,
I must say that your genereally even-keeled nature has always been refreshing to me.
This statement is too much for me to stomach. I used to think as you do. I used to believe that guns were evil and the people that rely on them are cowards, afraid to back up what they say and do with little else but violence.
I swore I would never resort to gun promotion.
Then I took a job that required me to be armed, to take on the responsibility of protecting others. I leared how to safely handle a firearm.
The gun changed in meaning to me. I realized that it was little more than a tool. A tool when, in the right hands, has as much potential for good as it does for evil! Gun ownership did not transform me into a criminal. It did not give me any more desire to use a firearm on another human being than I already possessed.
It made me question the reason a free nation needs such a tool at all. I had my epiphany - arms make and keep humanity free and safe. Our revolutionaries did not merely bander harsh language with a tyrranical, abusive theocracy. They took lives and gave their own because they believed in their freedom!
I know how I must sound to you. Paranoid, delusional, even insane? I assure you that I'd have held those same sentiments not so terribly long ago! But I was an idealist. I believed in our police, our courts, our laws (and for the most part still do).
But I've also taken the bitter pill of realism, I've stood face-to-face with men that threatened my very life and the live of those I love. I've been forced into the harsh light of the truth: we will never, as a species, stop killing one another and we will never live in the utopias we dream of. The only solution to certain kinds of people will always be violence and it can only be met with violence.
I wish that could change. I really do wish that humanity would stop the atrocities! I wish we had no need for tools of killing. That is not, and never will be, the world we live in. When government is controlled by the corrupt it is only one small step to the extermination of a hated minority - a minority we are most definitely in.
The holocaust was only a little under 70 years ago. There are survivors alive today. Never allow yourelf the delusion that "it can't happen here, not to me." When that kind of complacency runs rampant, it won't be long before you and I have little yellow stars of our own.
I submit that the only solution is extensive, responsible firearm ownership and eternal vigilence. I, like you, always want to see every other avenue exhausted before resorting to violence.
Do not fear the gun. Instead fear the necessity of its use.
07/11/06 @ 03:09
Comment from:
atomictesting [Member]
I meant to say bandy instead of "bander." It is 1:40 AM and I am writing this entirely with my thumbs from a hotel room in another state, so I hope I can be forgiven my combination of bandy and banter ;)
07/11/06 @ 03:40
Comment from:
Kite666 [Member]
atomictesting
I hear what your saying but....
1) The holocaust didn't happen because there weren't guns around... if anything it happened because the wrong sort of people had power as well as guns.
2) Who is to decide who should and who shouldn't have a gun. Whoever makes that decision it leads to a group that will have the power.. which in the end means that there will be those that have and those that have not... not exactly the best situation to prevent abuse by those that have.
3) Guns are dangerous. Guns are to easy and even to impersonal in use that they can lead to deaths in a spurr of a moment. No matter how well trained you are and how well you know the weapon... there have been to many cases of serious injuries and fatalities because of accidents.
E.g. A guy I knew was in a gun club. One night he heard someone stealthy move around in the house so of course he got his gun out... loaded it... and got the drop on.... his daughter. Luckily his reflexes were quick enough not to pull the trigger.
4) Look at the stats in countries where there is tight(er) gun control. Look at Europe , look at the UK.
You'll notice that they aren't lawless societies. You'll also notice that there are less deaths due to crime. Afterall... if you bring a knife to defend yourself, he'll bring a gun, you use a gun , he'll use a sub-machine gun...etc...
5) Belgium (or the rest of western Europe) is not less free (no matter what the usual Euro-phobic rightwing idiots think) then the US. We got our indepence also through opposing a foreign power (Holland) and also with the help of the French. However we don't have the need for ,if you forgive me, the macho gun behaviour that seems to permeate the US.
I hear what your saying but....
1) The holocaust didn't happen because there weren't guns around... if anything it happened because the wrong sort of people had power as well as guns.
2) Who is to decide who should and who shouldn't have a gun. Whoever makes that decision it leads to a group that will have the power.. which in the end means that there will be those that have and those that have not... not exactly the best situation to prevent abuse by those that have.
3) Guns are dangerous. Guns are to easy and even to impersonal in use that they can lead to deaths in a spurr of a moment. No matter how well trained you are and how well you know the weapon... there have been to many cases of serious injuries and fatalities because of accidents.
E.g. A guy I knew was in a gun club. One night he heard someone stealthy move around in the house so of course he got his gun out... loaded it... and got the drop on.... his daughter. Luckily his reflexes were quick enough not to pull the trigger.
4) Look at the stats in countries where there is tight(er) gun control. Look at Europe , look at the UK.
You'll notice that they aren't lawless societies. You'll also notice that there are less deaths due to crime. Afterall... if you bring a knife to defend yourself, he'll bring a gun, you use a gun , he'll use a sub-machine gun...etc...
5) Belgium (or the rest of western Europe) is not less free (no matter what the usual Euro-phobic rightwing idiots think) then the US. We got our indepence also through opposing a foreign power (Holland) and also with the help of the French. However we don't have the need for ,if you forgive me, the macho gun behaviour that seems to permeate the US.
07/11/06 @ 06:53
Comment from:
Kite666 [Member]
Phreed,
You'll forgive me if I'm not surprised that you don't want to believe something that doesn't fit your belief.
About Iraq... you should in fact question what you think you "know" about Iraq and the wars (present and the past one) because you haven't got the facts at all.
E.g.: Recall the massive bombing on the road to Bagdad in the first Iraq war under George senior ? Remember the splendid military victory of all those tanks that got destroyed on that highway while they were fleeing from the Kuwait ? Fact is, there were 6 tanks... and there were thousands of civilian casualities but nobody ever showed that on any US news station ... those that would try any such thing quickly found out that they didn't have a career no more.
So much for freedom, so much for democracy under a Christian atheist hating president (= George senior).
Guess what, disinformation, falg waving and general jingoism didn't get better only worse under junior.
You'll forgive me if I'm not surprised that you don't want to believe something that doesn't fit your belief.
About Iraq... you should in fact question what you think you "know" about Iraq and the wars (present and the past one) because you haven't got the facts at all.
E.g.: Recall the massive bombing on the road to Bagdad in the first Iraq war under George senior ? Remember the splendid military victory of all those tanks that got destroyed on that highway while they were fleeing from the Kuwait ? Fact is, there were 6 tanks... and there were thousands of civilian casualities but nobody ever showed that on any US news station ... those that would try any such thing quickly found out that they didn't have a career no more.
So much for freedom, so much for democracy under a Christian atheist hating president (= George senior).
Guess what, disinformation, falg waving and general jingoism didn't get better only worse under junior.
07/11/06 @ 07:04
Comment from:
cry4turtles [Member]
Kite666,
Never held a gun in my hands until I was 25. I lived alone, worked , and went to college. My need for a firearm came in the form of a stalker. He followed me to and home from work, and even followed me while I rode my pony. My family was 100 miles away. They begged me to come home, but I loved my college and wasn't giving up my dream for a wierdo. I lived in relative terror for a year, even with a dog.
My brother gave me a 38 for xmas that year. He took the time to help me register it and learn to use it. I carried it with me when I knew I was at risk. It evened the odds considerably. I was able to sleep at night. I was able to go to work, ride through the most secluded areas, in essence, get my life back. I was no longer vulnerable to his threat. The local and state police knew of my dilemma, knew of my xmas present, and advised me to use it if I needed to. Eventually, they caught up with him and put an end to my nightmare. 16 years later I still have my 38. It got me through a divorce, when I was alone again, and threatened (we all know the stats about that). To me it will always represent freedom, equality, and the undyling love of my family. I'll never be that vulnerable again. "...from my cold, dead hands."
Never held a gun in my hands until I was 25. I lived alone, worked , and went to college. My need for a firearm came in the form of a stalker. He followed me to and home from work, and even followed me while I rode my pony. My family was 100 miles away. They begged me to come home, but I loved my college and wasn't giving up my dream for a wierdo. I lived in relative terror for a year, even with a dog.
My brother gave me a 38 for xmas that year. He took the time to help me register it and learn to use it. I carried it with me when I knew I was at risk. It evened the odds considerably. I was able to sleep at night. I was able to go to work, ride through the most secluded areas, in essence, get my life back. I was no longer vulnerable to his threat. The local and state police knew of my dilemma, knew of my xmas present, and advised me to use it if I needed to. Eventually, they caught up with him and put an end to my nightmare. 16 years later I still have my 38. It got me through a divorce, when I was alone again, and threatened (we all know the stats about that). To me it will always represent freedom, equality, and the undyling love of my family. I'll never be that vulnerable again. "...from my cold, dead hands."
07/11/06 @ 07:40
Comment from:
phreedm [Member]
Comment from: Kite666 [Member]
Kite, you're thinking too small. I never said I didn't want to believe the story. Just said all of the pieces don't fit.
Such as...
From the AA web site...
National attention? And yet NO news articles from national papers?
It just doesn't make sense.
How about someone posting court documents?
Check AA's homepage and you'll see they are claiming James Dobson is in charge of rallying the religious base.
Don't you think that happens on all sides? Isn't Dave's title something like the AA communications director?
As stated, his thread about Carl Rove being indicted within 24 hours turned out to be a hoax.
If there is evidence to the contrary, then post it and I'll be glad to give my opinion then...but until that happens I'm very skeptical about this one...
You'll forgive me if I'm not surprised that you don't want to believe something that doesn't fit your belief.
Kite, you're thinking too small. I never said I didn't want to believe the story. Just said all of the pieces don't fit.
Such as...
From the AA web site...
The Smalkowski case attracted national attention after Nicole Smalkowski was kicked off of the girls' basketball team after refusing to stand in a circle with her teammates on the gymnasium floor of the Hardesty public High School and recite the "Lord's Prayer."
National attention? And yet NO news articles from national papers?
It just doesn't make sense.
How about someone posting court documents?
Check AA's homepage and you'll see they are claiming James Dobson is in charge of rallying the religious base.
Don't you think that happens on all sides? Isn't Dave's title something like the AA communications director?
As stated, his thread about Carl Rove being indicted within 24 hours turned out to be a hoax.
If there is evidence to the contrary, then post it and I'll be glad to give my opinion then...but until that happens I'm very skeptical about this one...
07/11/06 @ 07:59
Comment from:
Smartypants [Member]
· http://www.opengavel.com/
I thought I would throw in my 2 cents on guns, even if it doesn't relate much to atheism.
Guns are tools, but as a tool guns raise the ante of violence awfully high. To one person a gun may represent an ability to stand up for your own security or other rights. To another person, one of those rights might include not getting cut off in traffic.
When I was a child, my father bought a gun. It was a bit older and he had always been a sucker for antiques (It was a pretty nice piece of workmanship). At the same time, I think he thought it wouldn't be bad to have one around for security. He approached it with a responsible mind and kept it securely locked away.
Several months later, he discovered my mother was cheating on him. When he found out, he knew where they were and had the opportunity to confront them. In anger he quickly went home to get the gun but stopped before he walked out the door and put it back. He ended up confronting them and there was a bit of a fight involved, but nobody was shot and nobody died.
A couple of days afterwards, my father, understanding what almost happened, got rid of the gun. The existence of that gun in our home automatically raised the ante just because of the availability of such a powerful tool. Thankfully, my father had enough wits to stop and think but I don't think you can expect much reasonable thought in such emotionally charged circumstances.
The most reasonable people can be irrational in the right circumstances. In my experience, most gun proponents assume they will always be rational and in control enough to use good judgment. Humility should remind us all, however, that we are not always so in-control as we like to think we are.
Guns are tools, but as a tool guns raise the ante of violence awfully high. To one person a gun may represent an ability to stand up for your own security or other rights. To another person, one of those rights might include not getting cut off in traffic.
When I was a child, my father bought a gun. It was a bit older and he had always been a sucker for antiques (It was a pretty nice piece of workmanship). At the same time, I think he thought it wouldn't be bad to have one around for security. He approached it with a responsible mind and kept it securely locked away.
Several months later, he discovered my mother was cheating on him. When he found out, he knew where they were and had the opportunity to confront them. In anger he quickly went home to get the gun but stopped before he walked out the door and put it back. He ended up confronting them and there was a bit of a fight involved, but nobody was shot and nobody died.
A couple of days afterwards, my father, understanding what almost happened, got rid of the gun. The existence of that gun in our home automatically raised the ante just because of the availability of such a powerful tool. Thankfully, my father had enough wits to stop and think but I don't think you can expect much reasonable thought in such emotionally charged circumstances.
The most reasonable people can be irrational in the right circumstances. In my experience, most gun proponents assume they will always be rational and in control enough to use good judgment. Humility should remind us all, however, that we are not always so in-control as we like to think we are.
07/11/06 @ 11:17
Comment from:
karen [Member]
atomictesting
This made me smile. I only seem even-keeled because of all the constant to-and-fro motions I make on my mental boat!! But thank you.
I DO see both sides; I'm not afraid of guns.
I think it's because of my own itchy trigger finger that I see strict gun control as a good thing.
That, and I know some scary gun-owning people. Scary because of their irresponsibility.
Cry4turtles presented a very responsible and practical reason for carrying a gun with her stalker. Luckily, she wasn't forced to use it.
It just makes me cringe to think of taking my grandkids to a playground, and thinking that all the other adults around may be packing.
I must say that your genereally even-keeled nature has always been refreshing to me.
This made me smile. I only seem even-keeled because of all the constant to-and-fro motions I make on my mental boat!! But thank you.
I DO see both sides; I'm not afraid of guns.
I think it's because of my own itchy trigger finger that I see strict gun control as a good thing.
That, and I know some scary gun-owning people. Scary because of their irresponsibility.
Cry4turtles presented a very responsible and practical reason for carrying a gun with her stalker. Luckily, she wasn't forced to use it.
It just makes me cringe to think of taking my grandkids to a playground, and thinking that all the other adults around may be packing.
07/11/06 @ 11:40
Comment from:
Bones [Member]
I'm with cry4turtles with the whole gun control thing....from my cold, dead hands. I'm a law-abiding citizen (ok, I speed sometimes), and there is no reason, physical or mental, to NOT allow me to responsibly own (and yes, sometimes carry) a gun.
That said, I've been through years of training, and I target-practice several times a month. My dad was a fanatic NRA instructor, who would kick our ass if he caught any one of us "playing" with a gun. We were taught responsibly, AND taught that we are responsible for any and every thing that happens with/to that gun.
I also agree with Karen, that many, many adults in this country should definitely NOT being able to carry or own a gun. Stupidity should be the main reason! I'm not sure how that would be enforced - we've yet to come up with a stupidity test other than "here's your sign."
It's a sad statement, but we've allowed personal responsibility to go by the wayside as we look for more and more people to blame. It's a blame-game free-for-all!!!!
I know I am responsible for my gun.
Yes, accidents happen, but if you take the correct steps, the chances of those accidents happening are drastically reduced.
Kite666 and smartypants - I understand both of your examples. However, the guy who almost took out his daughter obviously had not thought out what he would do beforehand. In my home, when my gun comes out, it's "GUN OUT." Loud enough for all to hear. If it's a burglar in my house, maybe it'll make him turn his ass around. If it's my kid, he's now aware the GUN IS OUT and take appropriate steps, like "I'm here, Mom" .
As for the emotional response from the father...that is NOT a typical response. GUNS SHOULD NEVER BE USED IN ANGER. I have to go through 3 locks to get out my gun....plenty of time to get my emotions under control. Anyone unsure of what their emotional response would be should re-think the idea of owning a gun.
I rarely CARRY my gun. However hopefully on that playground with your grandkids is someone like me, willing and able to protect those around me from the stupid assholes that seem so prevalent these days.
I guess it'd be better to say I totally support RESPONSIBLE gun ownership. And yes, that means if someone gets ahold of MY GUN, it IS my fault!!!
That said, I've been through years of training, and I target-practice several times a month. My dad was a fanatic NRA instructor, who would kick our ass if he caught any one of us "playing" with a gun. We were taught responsibly, AND taught that we are responsible for any and every thing that happens with/to that gun.
I also agree with Karen, that many, many adults in this country should definitely NOT being able to carry or own a gun. Stupidity should be the main reason! I'm not sure how that would be enforced - we've yet to come up with a stupidity test other than "here's your sign."
It's a sad statement, but we've allowed personal responsibility to go by the wayside as we look for more and more people to blame. It's a blame-game free-for-all!!!!
I know I am responsible for my gun.
Yes, accidents happen, but if you take the correct steps, the chances of those accidents happening are drastically reduced.
Kite666 and smartypants - I understand both of your examples. However, the guy who almost took out his daughter obviously had not thought out what he would do beforehand. In my home, when my gun comes out, it's "GUN OUT." Loud enough for all to hear. If it's a burglar in my house, maybe it'll make him turn his ass around. If it's my kid, he's now aware the GUN IS OUT and take appropriate steps, like "I'm here, Mom" .
As for the emotional response from the father...that is NOT a typical response. GUNS SHOULD NEVER BE USED IN ANGER. I have to go through 3 locks to get out my gun....plenty of time to get my emotions under control. Anyone unsure of what their emotional response would be should re-think the idea of owning a gun.
I rarely CARRY my gun. However hopefully on that playground with your grandkids is someone like me, willing and able to protect those around me from the stupid assholes that seem so prevalent these days.
I guess it'd be better to say I totally support RESPONSIBLE gun ownership. And yes, that means if someone gets ahold of MY GUN, it IS my fault!!!
07/11/06 @ 12:11
Comment from:
cry4turtles [Member]
Responsibility is the key.
07/11/06 @ 14:12
Comment from:
bernarda [Member]
"I rarely CARRY my gun. However hopefully on that playground with your grandkids is someone like me, willing and able to protect those around me from the stupid assholes that seem so prevalent these days."
I hope there is no nutcase like that in my neighborhood. Of course a gunman can come around, but the fact is that the great majority of people killed with guns are done in by their relatives and friends.
If you have a gun at home or your friends and relatives do, you have a better chance of being gunned down than if you or they didn't.
I hope there is no nutcase like that in my neighborhood. Of course a gunman can come around, but the fact is that the great majority of people killed with guns are done in by their relatives and friends.
If you have a gun at home or your friends and relatives do, you have a better chance of being gunned down than if you or they didn't.
07/11/06 @ 15:18
Comment from:
Smartypants [Member]
· http://www.opengavel.com/
Bones,
While I appreciate your "guns should never be used in anger" attitude, I think you missed my point. My point was that anger (and a few other emotions) often undermine good judgment even in people that are otherwise totally responsible. So, knowing that they should not be used in anger doesn't help if anger has clouded your judgment.
It's the same with your GUN OUT example. Great concept but it assumes you will always be thinking clearly (hopefully you will be but it takes a certain amount of ego to just assume it).
The humility I mentioned was trying to get at the point that, whether its emotions or something else, there will be times you are not thinking as rationally as you are right now and you are subject to errors in judgment.
Humans are fallible...we make mistakes (even you)...and mistakes with guns can often not be corrected as easily as a non-gun solution can.
It not just "stupid people" that make mistakes (although I am sure they make plenty more than average :) ).
While I appreciate your "guns should never be used in anger" attitude, I think you missed my point. My point was that anger (and a few other emotions) often undermine good judgment even in people that are otherwise totally responsible. So, knowing that they should not be used in anger doesn't help if anger has clouded your judgment.
It's the same with your GUN OUT example. Great concept but it assumes you will always be thinking clearly (hopefully you will be but it takes a certain amount of ego to just assume it).
The humility I mentioned was trying to get at the point that, whether its emotions or something else, there will be times you are not thinking as rationally as you are right now and you are subject to errors in judgment.
Humans are fallible...we make mistakes (even you)...and mistakes with guns can often not be corrected as easily as a non-gun solution can.
It not just "stupid people" that make mistakes (although I am sure they make plenty more than average :) ).
07/11/06 @ 16:02
Comment from:
HeatheNZ [Member]
· http://www.heathenz.bravehost.com
I'm with Smarty on this one. I consider myself a very stable person, but I also know that I have buttons that can be pushed should someone who knows me well (spouse) wish to do so. Every so often I'll 'spit the dummy' and rant and rave, slam a few doors, and get it out of my system.
During such times I would not like to be carrying heat. Not that I think I'd use it, but it might be a concern for those around me. Plus why tempt fate?
In terms of protecting myself against an intruder, I'm such a sound sleeper that the intruder would have no trouble getting the drop on me.
I realise that if someone is intent on doing me serious harm in all liklihood they will be able to do so with little trouble. On the plus side, I don't spend my life looking at everyone with suspicion and I know I'm not going to be responsible for blowing a hole in a loved one or a drunk neighbour heading for the wrong house.
It's a personal choice, but one that suites my outlook on life.
During such times I would not like to be carrying heat. Not that I think I'd use it, but it might be a concern for those around me. Plus why tempt fate?
In terms of protecting myself against an intruder, I'm such a sound sleeper that the intruder would have no trouble getting the drop on me.
I realise that if someone is intent on doing me serious harm in all liklihood they will be able to do so with little trouble. On the plus side, I don't spend my life looking at everyone with suspicion and I know I'm not going to be responsible for blowing a hole in a loved one or a drunk neighbour heading for the wrong house.
It's a personal choice, but one that suites my outlook on life.
07/11/06 @ 16:17
Comment from:
Krystalline Apostate [Member]
· http://biblioblography.blogspot.com
I'm going to have to retract a statement here:
There are various arts that can teach an individual w/in a year or so, to defend themselves.
Krav maga (Israeli), for 1. Hsing-i (a Chinese MA)for another.
Old Chinese saying: 'Hsing-i, 1 year, kill a man'. It was used for centuries in China, by the military.
A gun, while the ultimate equalizer, requires training.
You get that initial adrenaline squirt, it fumbles your aim, or your draw.
You can have all the guns in the world in your armory, but all is useless w/o technique.
But in lieu of 1-2 decades of training, it's not a bad point.
There are various arts that can teach an individual w/in a year or so, to defend themselves.
Krav maga (Israeli), for 1. Hsing-i (a Chinese MA)for another.
Old Chinese saying: 'Hsing-i, 1 year, kill a man'. It was used for centuries in China, by the military.
A gun, while the ultimate equalizer, requires training.
You get that initial adrenaline squirt, it fumbles your aim, or your draw.
You can have all the guns in the world in your armory, but all is useless w/o technique.
07/11/06 @ 16:31
Comment from:
phreedm [Member]
It appears discrimination happens on both sides of the aisle...
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jul/06071101.html
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jul/06071101.html
07/11/06 @ 22:31
Comment from:
HeatheNZ [Member]
· http://www.heathenz.bravehost.com
Phreedm,
Interesting case that poses some interesting issues.
For example does 'no sex out of marriage' mean that homosexuals are permanently enjoined from copulating as marriage is not a valid option to these folks?
In other words: "You can't be sexually active in our club unless you get married. Oh - and we oppose you getting married if you're queer".
Interesting case that poses some interesting issues.
For example does 'no sex out of marriage' mean that homosexuals are permanently enjoined from copulating as marriage is not a valid option to these folks?
In other words: "You can't be sexually active in our club unless you get married. Oh - and we oppose you getting married if you're queer".
07/11/06 @ 22:40
Comment from:
tomwright [Member]
· http://www.wrightwing.net
RA:
Having both used guns in self defense and taken traing, (in that order), I can attest that the stories of fumbles and panic are overblown.
I canalso attest that the mere presence of a firearm wards off predators. It worked for me two times, once in Paramus NJ when I was working retail, and once in NYC, when I pretended to have a firearm, which kept me from getting mugged, at the least.
Some people panic at the idea of choosing linguini or spaghetti, not much you can do for them.
Training for firearms is simple and requires little physical strength, dexterity or ability.
All martial arts I know of require at least good dexterity, if not some strength.
They also require dedication and time many, maybe most, do not have.
For those that can do so, the discipline and training are great, but most can not do that.
Skills with firearms, once learned, can be retained for years with little or no practice, though it is always best to practice if you can.
No need to be Rambo, just be able to handle safely and aim steadily, and you're good.
A gun, while the ultimate equalizer, requires training.
You get that initial adrenaline squirt, it fumbles your aim, or your draw.
You can have all the guns in the world in your armory, but all is useless w/o technique.
Having both used guns in self defense and taken traing, (in that order), I can attest that the stories of fumbles and panic are overblown.
I canalso attest that the mere presence of a firearm wards off predators. It worked for me two times, once in Paramus NJ when I was working retail, and once in NYC, when I pretended to have a firearm, which kept me from getting mugged, at the least.
Some people panic at the idea of choosing linguini or spaghetti, not much you can do for them.
Training for firearms is simple and requires little physical strength, dexterity or ability.
All martial arts I know of require at least good dexterity, if not some strength.
They also require dedication and time many, maybe most, do not have.
For those that can do so, the discipline and training are great, but most can not do that.
Skills with firearms, once learned, can be retained for years with little or no practice, though it is always best to practice if you can.
No need to be Rambo, just be able to handle safely and aim steadily, and you're good.
07/11/06 @ 22:41
Comment from:
tomwright [Member]
· http://www.wrightwing.net
Karen:
Which many think is the motivation behind a lot of gun control. People that do nto trust themselves and therefore trust no one else.
To out this in perspective, look at the staistics on car deaths. No matter how you cut it, cars are more dangersous than guns.
Total deaths each year are higher.
Deaths per thousand are higher for cars owned than guns owned.
deaths per thousand are higher for drivers than gun owners.
Yet I see no national crusade over car control, "for the children". No Million Mom Motorists or Brady Campaign to stop Vehicle Violence.
We all think we are good drivers, yet the slaughter continues.
At the same time, on average, states with the highest gun ownership rate amongst non-criminal have the lowest crime rates.
Something like less than one percent of one percent, (.001), of guns are used in crimes. If anything, they are amongst the safest things someone can own. Perhaps because they are known to be dangerous if mishandled, like a chain saw, people are carful, but the facts are there, if rarely reported.
I know some scary drivers. I have been stalked by some while riding my bicycle. That is a fearful situation, when someone in 2 tons of vehicle deliberately make multiple passes at you, or jump out and attack you.
Strange it has only happened in NJ or NY, where carrying a firearm is forbidden to all not politically connected. I have never had a problem in Pennsylvania, Iowa, Vermont or other states where carrying firearms is permitted, or in the case of VT, no permit needed. Just do it.
But the original point is that these are tools to ward off oppression and when needed, can get you away to safety. They can make the idea of trying to oppress too expensive to begin, or once begun, can allow escape. No populace will stop a government intent on oppression. But an armed group can defend itself long enough to get away.
I think it's because of my own itchy trigger finger that I see strict gun control as a good thing.
That, and I know some scary gun-owning people. Scary because of their irresponsibility.
Which many think is the motivation behind a lot of gun control. People that do nto trust themselves and therefore trust no one else.
To out this in perspective, look at the staistics on car deaths. No matter how you cut it, cars are more dangersous than guns.
Total deaths each year are higher.
Deaths per thousand are higher for cars owned than guns owned.
deaths per thousand are higher for drivers than gun owners.
Yet I see no national crusade over car control, "for the children". No Million Mom Motorists or Brady Campaign to stop Vehicle Violence.
We all think we are good drivers, yet the slaughter continues.
At the same time, on average, states with the highest gun ownership rate amongst non-criminal have the lowest crime rates.
Something like less than one percent of one percent, (.001), of guns are used in crimes. If anything, they are amongst the safest things someone can own. Perhaps because they are known to be dangerous if mishandled, like a chain saw, people are carful, but the facts are there, if rarely reported.
I know some scary drivers. I have been stalked by some while riding my bicycle. That is a fearful situation, when someone in 2 tons of vehicle deliberately make multiple passes at you, or jump out and attack you.
Strange it has only happened in NJ or NY, where carrying a firearm is forbidden to all not politically connected. I have never had a problem in Pennsylvania, Iowa, Vermont or other states where carrying firearms is permitted, or in the case of VT, no permit needed. Just do it.
But the original point is that these are tools to ward off oppression and when needed, can get you away to safety. They can make the idea of trying to oppress too expensive to begin, or once begun, can allow escape. No populace will stop a government intent on oppression. But an armed group can defend itself long enough to get away.
07/11/06 @ 23:04
Comment from:
Krystalline Apostate [Member]
· http://biblioblography.blogspot.com
TW:
Both of which can be learned from the art itself.
Many of the more dangerous people in MA aren't the huge hulks you see on the tube. Some of 'em are 100 pds. soaking wet.
Sure, that's not an argument, nor my point at all.
Like a gun (albeit it takes a lot more work), MA training can be done by anyone. Train the body, & the mind follows.
& I like to have more than 1 card up me sleeve. Forgetting to take the safety off, or a mousetrap jam, or even someone sticking their finger in the barrel (I know that sounds like Bugs Bunny).
I like to keep my reflexes tuned, is all.
All martial arts I know of require at least good dexterity, if not some strength.
Both of which can be learned from the art itself.
Many of the more dangerous people in MA aren't the huge hulks you see on the tube. Some of 'em are 100 pds. soaking wet.
Skills with firearms, once learned, can be retained for years with little or no practice, though it is always best to practice if you can.
Sure, that's not an argument, nor my point at all.
Like a gun (albeit it takes a lot more work), MA training can be done by anyone. Train the body, & the mind follows.
& I like to have more than 1 card up me sleeve. Forgetting to take the safety off, or a mousetrap jam, or even someone sticking their finger in the barrel (I know that sounds like Bugs Bunny).
I like to keep my reflexes tuned, is all.
07/11/06 @ 23:10
Comment from:
tomwright [Member]
· http://www.wrightwing.net
RA:
Can they be done by anyone? Sure. Anyone can check the tire pressure on the car once a month, balance the checkbook once a month, scrub out the shower or tub weekly, etc.
But how many actually DO? (hint: do not even TRY to understand my checkbookm and avoid my bathroom for your own safety...)
Human nature being what it is, MA training is realistically only for a few. Firearms training is accessable to far more people. All/any sorts of defensive training combined, however, will never be for every one. There will always be those that can not do so for whatever reasons of physical, or other, impariment, or those that refuse to out of some sort of philosophical conviction.
I am unfamiliar with the term "Mousetrap jam": expand?
Jam clearing in general is part of any halfway decent firearms course. For semi-autos with magazines, I was always taught tap-rack-ready. (AKA slap-reack-ready). Revolvers tend not to malfunction.
The finger in the barrel is a canard, and I hope you are joking. It is a good way to lose at least a finger, if not a hand or a life. Please, no one try it.
Note that I am not saying MA training is a bad thing, or that it should not be attempted by anyone that wants to give it a try. Even if they later find it is not for them, the knowledge gained is worth the time spent. Better to have the knowledge than not, nor would I object to having it included as a part of a school phys-ed program.
I just think it is unrealistic to expect "everyone" to do it, or to think it is a viable defense alternative for most people. Some yes, but a minority.
Like a gun (albeit it takes a lot more work), MA training can be done by anyone. Train the body, & the mind follows.
& I like to have more than 1 card up me sleeve. Forgetting to take the safety off, or a mousetrap jam, or even someone sticking their finger in the barrel (I know that sounds like Bugs Bunny).
I like to keep my reflexes tuned, is all.
Can they be done by anyone? Sure. Anyone can check the tire pressure on the car once a month, balance the checkbook once a month, scrub out the shower or tub weekly, etc.
But how many actually DO? (hint: do not even TRY to understand my checkbookm and avoid my bathroom for your own safety...)
Human nature being what it is, MA training is realistically only for a few. Firearms training is accessable to far more people. All/any sorts of defensive training combined, however, will never be for every one. There will always be those that can not do so for whatever reasons of physical, or other, impariment, or those that refuse to out of some sort of philosophical conviction.
I am unfamiliar with the term "Mousetrap jam": expand?
Jam clearing in general is part of any halfway decent firearms course. For semi-autos with magazines, I was always taught tap-rack-ready. (AKA slap-reack-ready). Revolvers tend not to malfunction.
The finger in the barrel is a canard, and I hope you are joking. It is a good way to lose at least a finger, if not a hand or a life. Please, no one try it.
Note that I am not saying MA training is a bad thing, or that it should not be attempted by anyone that wants to give it a try. Even if they later find it is not for them, the knowledge gained is worth the time spent. Better to have the knowledge than not, nor would I object to having it included as a part of a school phys-ed program.
I just think it is unrealistic to expect "everyone" to do it, or to think it is a viable defense alternative for most people. Some yes, but a minority.
07/12/06 @ 07:52
Comment from:
Krystalline Apostate [Member]
· http://biblioblography.blogspot.com
TW:
Oh, like say, the entire population of Israel, where everybody does Krav Maga (or a variant thereof)?
Well, unless 1 is physically or mentally impaired, everyone owes it to themselves & their own well-being (as well as their health) to take precautions.
I recall seeing a demo on ABC's Wide World of Sports back in the 70's, where a double-amputee black belt (both legs) did a multiple attack SD. It was amazing. How'd he do it?
Simple. He didn't listen to those who said it couldn't be done.
Most MA practitioners are very peaceable folk, despite the crap the TV & movies spew.
& having a gun isn't a catch-all solution.
I recall an old Wild West story. I either saw it on a documentary, or read it somewhere. 3 guys got into a gunfight, they started shooting at fellow #1, who was several yards away. He just marched right up in the fusillade, & shot the other 2 fellows.
It's been a while, but I think it's about shotguns.
When T1 came out, I read that the shotgun Arnie used was a Plas-12(?). Auto fire: pull the trigger, shoot. If it mousetraps, hit the switch to change to pump action.
Could be off.
As I understand it, the gun will explode if the gases can't escape. You'll lose a finger or a hand (or get killed if you don't do it right).
We live in a violent, turbulent world. There are some times, when the gun is useless.
1st off, it's not viable for the woman unlocking her car in an isolated garage. Nor is it viable for the sudden attack from an alley.
There's also the concept of reasonable force in a courtroom, where you have to prove threat to life & limb. This applies to civilians as well as constabulary.
Also, self-defense isn't always about combat. Dodging falling objects, having the reflexes to avoid the oncoming car, avoiding damaging falls (balance training). In short, there's multiple benefits to MA training.
What, you get a job as a salesman at the Springfield Armory? ;)
While you & I may be able to focus, relax, point, & respond properly, many people are incapable.
I've never been in a firefight, but I've seen a few 1-eyed stares in my day. Most folks would wet themselves: I remained focussed, & (no word of a lie, squire), calm & unshaken afterwards.
FOTMI, until we live in some utopian wonderland, where no 1 harms anyone, guns are a necessity. Ultimate MA: chic-chic-ping!
But, like it says in 'Last Man Standing': - "He's useless w/o his gun."
A warrior should be well-rounded: reliance on 1 tool is foolishness indeed, when that tool is out of reach.
Human nature being what it is, MA training is realistically only for a few.
Oh, like say, the entire population of Israel, where everybody does Krav Maga (or a variant thereof)?
There will always be those that can not do so for whatever reasons of physical, or other, impariment, or those that refuse to out of some sort of philosophical conviction.
Well, unless 1 is physically or mentally impaired, everyone owes it to themselves & their own well-being (as well as their health) to take precautions.
I recall seeing a demo on ABC's Wide World of Sports back in the 70's, where a double-amputee black belt (both legs) did a multiple attack SD. It was amazing. How'd he do it?
Simple. He didn't listen to those who said it couldn't be done.
Most MA practitioners are very peaceable folk, despite the crap the TV & movies spew.
& having a gun isn't a catch-all solution.
I recall an old Wild West story. I either saw it on a documentary, or read it somewhere. 3 guys got into a gunfight, they started shooting at fellow #1, who was several yards away. He just marched right up in the fusillade, & shot the other 2 fellows.
I am unfamiliar with the term "Mousetrap jam": expand?
It's been a while, but I think it's about shotguns.
When T1 came out, I read that the shotgun Arnie used was a Plas-12(?). Auto fire: pull the trigger, shoot. If it mousetraps, hit the switch to change to pump action.
Could be off.
The finger in the barrel is a canard, and I hope you are joking.
As I understand it, the gun will explode if the gases can't escape. You'll lose a finger or a hand (or get killed if you don't do it right).
I just think it is unrealistic to expect "everyone" to do it, or to think it is a viable defense alternative for most people.
We live in a violent, turbulent world. There are some times, when the gun is useless.
1st off, it's not viable for the woman unlocking her car in an isolated garage. Nor is it viable for the sudden attack from an alley.
There's also the concept of reasonable force in a courtroom, where you have to prove threat to life & limb. This applies to civilians as well as constabulary.
Also, self-defense isn't always about combat. Dodging falling objects, having the reflexes to avoid the oncoming car, avoiding damaging falls (balance training). In short, there's multiple benefits to MA training.
Some yes, but a minority.
What, you get a job as a salesman at the Springfield Armory? ;)
While you & I may be able to focus, relax, point, & respond properly, many people are incapable.
I've never been in a firefight, but I've seen a few 1-eyed stares in my day. Most folks would wet themselves: I remained focussed, & (no word of a lie, squire), calm & unshaken afterwards.
FOTMI, until we live in some utopian wonderland, where no 1 harms anyone, guns are a necessity. Ultimate MA: chic-chic-ping!
But, like it says in 'Last Man Standing': - "He's useless w/o his gun."
A warrior should be well-rounded: reliance on 1 tool is foolishness indeed, when that tool is out of reach.
07/12/06 @ 18:13
Comment from:
Bones [Member]
So, RA, I've often thought about beginning martial arts training. How do you decide which one? It seems like there are so many out there. I have a friend who has done Kempo Karate for many years. My sister does Tai Kwon Do (sp?).
I can't do high-impact stuff due to a bad back, but I'm a fairly heathly early 40-something woman. Average strength, but a skinny little shit.
CAn you give me some suggestions for disciplines to look in to?
thx
I can't do high-impact stuff due to a bad back, but I'm a fairly heathly early 40-something woman. Average strength, but a skinny little shit.
CAn you give me some suggestions for disciplines to look in to?
thx
07/12/06 @ 19:07
Comment from:
Krystalline Apostate [Member]
· http://biblioblography.blogspot.com
Bones:
Well, the trick here, is, as the old song goes, "My mama told me, ya gotta shop around!"
I'm in CA, however, & there's no dearth of instructors out here (myself included).
Krav maga is usually sufficient: TKD is hard on the back, some Chinese MAs are hard on the knees. Kempo, I have some respect for.
You need to factor in: gender (sorry, it's just a fact), size, weight, etc. Until you reach some level of proficiency, strength's always going to be a factor. So shop, watch (be a vo_yeur), be pragmatic. How long will it take till it works? How often can you practice? In the meantime, if you're worried about safety, seriously consider pepper spray, tasers, etc. (A gun's not a bad idea, but it's contingent on your state's carry permits).
Most of all, find 1 you love. If available.
& check the backgrounds. A lot of charlatanry exists in it. If you start hearing about becoming some mystical Thunderballz warrior, get out fast! Avoid the 'fear no man' folks: that's just hype.
'It is the most lethal of the martial arts!' (as opposed to the least lethal? Aye caramba!)
La Systema is the Russian system of Sambo. I don't know if there's anyone in your area.
If they're too damn serious, well, the very serious ones are usually not very good.
Wing chun, I.E., was created by a buddhist nun.
Aikido, Tai Chi: too long. Karate's good for instant gratification, but too linear.
Hit a few restaurants, taste what's on the menu, is the short version.
Hope that helps.
Well, the trick here, is, as the old song goes, "My mama told me, ya gotta shop around!"
I'm in CA, however, & there's no dearth of instructors out here (myself included).
Krav maga is usually sufficient: TKD is hard on the back, some Chinese MAs are hard on the knees. Kempo, I have some respect for.
You need to factor in: gender (sorry, it's just a fact), size, weight, etc. Until you reach some level of proficiency, strength's always going to be a factor. So shop, watch (be a vo_yeur), be pragmatic. How long will it take till it works? How often can you practice? In the meantime, if you're worried about safety, seriously consider pepper spray, tasers, etc. (A gun's not a bad idea, but it's contingent on your state's carry permits).
Most of all, find 1 you love. If available.
& check the backgrounds. A lot of charlatanry exists in it. If you start hearing about becoming some mystical Thunderballz warrior, get out fast! Avoid the 'fear no man' folks: that's just hype.
'It is the most lethal of the martial arts!' (as opposed to the least lethal? Aye caramba!)
La Systema is the Russian system of Sambo. I don't know if there's anyone in your area.
If they're too damn serious, well, the very serious ones are usually not very good.
Wing chun, I.E., was created by a buddhist nun.
Aikido, Tai Chi: too long. Karate's good for instant gratification, but too linear.
Hit a few restaurants, taste what's on the menu, is the short version.
Hope that helps.
07/12/06 @ 19:41
Comment from:
bernarda [Member]
Bones, I suggest that you take up AIKIDO. Not only can it be a very effective defense, it is good for general physical well-being as you get older. No high impact stuff. But it is not something you master overnight.
I practiced it for a few years and should get back to it. I once saw a demonstration by a Japanese guy in his 70's who could tumble like a younster and jump off the equivalent of a second floor. Truly amazing. If I jumped off a car today, I would probably hurt mayself.
Related to Aikido, you could also learn shiatsu massage.
I practiced it for a few years and should get back to it. I once saw a demonstration by a Japanese guy in his 70's who could tumble like a younster and jump off the equivalent of a second floor. Truly amazing. If I jumped off a car today, I would probably hurt mayself.
Related to Aikido, you could also learn shiatsu massage.
07/14/06 @ 04:37
Comment from:
bernarda [Member]
Those who think that firearms are a means of protection, should look at the statistics. The best way to die from one is for you or your friends and family to have one.
"Today, guns are outpaced only by motor vehicles as a cause of fatal injury stemming from a household or recreational consumer product. The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has estimated that by the year 2001, firearms will surpass motor vehicles as the leading cause of product-related death in our nation.5 In 1996, this crossover had already occurred in five states and the District of Columbia. 6
Contrary to popular perception, most gun death in America is not crime related. Most firearm deaths stem not from homicide (14,327 in 1996) but suicide (18,166 in 1996). And even for those who are murdered with firearms,a the Uniform Crime Reports published by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) reveals that the majority of firearm homicide victims die not as the result of criminal activity, but because of arguments between people who know each other.
When compared to other industrialized nations, the United States stands alone in the number of its citizens felled by guns. A 1997 study by the CDC analyzed firearm deaths for children less than 15 years old in 26 countries and found that 86 percent of the deaths occurred in the U.S.7 A 1998 study in the International Journal of Epidemiology found that the overall rate of firearms death in the U.S. is eight times higher than the firearms death rate of 25 other high-income countries combined."
http://www.vpc.org/studies/whointro.htm
"Today, guns are outpaced only by motor vehicles as a cause of fatal injury stemming from a household or recreational consumer product. The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has estimated that by the year 2001, firearms will surpass motor vehicles as the leading cause of product-related death in our nation.5 In 1996, this crossover had already occurred in five states and the District of Columbia. 6
Contrary to popular perception, most gun death in America is not crime related. Most firearm deaths stem not from homicide (14,327 in 1996) but suicide (18,166 in 1996). And even for those who are murdered with firearms,a the Uniform Crime Reports published by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) reveals that the majority of firearm homicide victims die not as the result of criminal activity, but because of arguments between people who know each other.
When compared to other industrialized nations, the United States stands alone in the number of its citizens felled by guns. A 1997 study by the CDC analyzed firearm deaths for children less than 15 years old in 26 countries and found that 86 percent of the deaths occurred in the U.S.7 A 1998 study in the International Journal of Epidemiology found that the overall rate of firearms death in the U.S. is eight times higher than the firearms death rate of 25 other high-income countries combined."
http://www.vpc.org/studies/whointro.htm
07/14/06 @ 04:47
Comment from:
farmgirl [Member]
· http://farmgirlxd.googlepages.com/home
Hiya all I havent been by in a whaile oh wait that should be bi any way I definetly wouldnt be suprised if this happens to me here I just today had some body throw their cup from burger fling and call me a godless faggot that will burn in hell as I was getting in to my car. Yeah I may be asking for it with the gay pride decal the darwin emblem and the fsm emblem but I have to admit I love the christian love they expound upon of course thats only if your one of the puppets.
I have to get outta of the omaha area like now.
I have to get outta of the omaha area like now.
07/15/06 @ 02:10
Comment from:
maddogstu [Member]
Was this a true story or not?
07/20/06 @ 22:28
Comment from:
sunbeamatheist [Member]
I would like to thank Chester Smalkowski for standing up for his and his families civil rights and pursuing his action against the court system. We are very happy that you won your case! The court system has failed to recognize Atheists and what Atheists stand for. Thank you Nadia Smalkowsik also for standing up against the school system by refusing to join a prayer circle. My family and I unfortunately live in one of the "bible belt" states where religious people promote religion so much it actually makes us sick to our stomachs everytime it is presented on television or on the radio. Louisiana has too many churches and not enough health care for it's citizens. Thanks to Atheists.org for helping support Chester Smalkowski and his family with this very important issue. Everyday people are being arrested for not conforming to religious practices around the world. Religion has no place in the public school system.
Sincerely,
sunbeamatheist
08/10/06 @ 02:46 You must log in to add comments.
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