NoGodBlog.com

Interesting. I wonder if the Office of Faith-Based initiatives gave them grant money to do this. I wouldn't put it past them...

I want my money back from those SOBs. I can't stand having my money spent in such a way! If anything this faith will bring more murder!

We ought to have a betting pool for how many seconds it takes for phreedm to show up and say the atheists are a bunch of whiny brats... which is exactly what he'd be if this had been a overtly Musilm event, for example.

That sums up to a little over 122,000$.

The mayor has also noted that secular nonprofit agencies were heavily involved in the effort.

Like whom? Anyone in particular? I'd like to have some opinions from those folks as well.

He said the event's focus was on preventing homicides, not on promoting any one faith over another.

Let's wait & see if the % of homicides decreases in the next 6 mos.
Does anyone have stats about similar events elsewhere? Or is this unique?

Why is it that the most religious cities in America, like Jacksonville, Fl and New Orleans, LA, have the highest crime and murder rates? The secular Northeast and Northwest have the lowest crime rates. That money could have been spent in much better ways.

"Arming Our Prayer Warriors"? I don't think it should be American Atheists suing the city, but rather the Modern Language Association. If the rally doesn't reduce homicide, it may at least turn George Orwell over in his grave.

I'll take that bet.

Phreedom's post will be the eighteenth post. I'll bet eight dollars.

Um, am I to understand that Prayer Warriors think they have the ability to wage war with nothing but their thoughts?

How exactly can one spend $122,000 waging a war with their thoughts - unless they're crooks?

"There were people of all faiths there and there were people of no faith there - no one was being screened at the door," Griffin said.

I just wonder how many people of "no faith" were in attendence?,what a load of dung and a waste of tax payers money.

How can they possibly downplay the religious aspects and yet call it a "day of prayer"? Please! When will these people learn?? (my guess is never)

"The secular Northeast and Northwest have the lowest crime rates."

I really don't think the Northeast and Northwest are very secular.... Maybe you meant "slightly less religious" compared to the Bible belt? (Or, "slightly less evangelical Xian".) I lived in NY and granted I knew tons of atheists there, but there are also lots of Catholics and Jews too (as well as Muslims, etc.)

As for the original post, yuck! Go American Atheists and ACLU, GO! Get the SOBs!

To alexatheist, *OFF TOPIC*

You inquired above WHY it is that the cities which have populations that are quite strongly religious are also ones having the highest crime rates. The people who I've observed that are in the lowest strata of American society are both *most* prone to committing crimes & also the ones who are most thoroughly convinced Xtianity is 100% real & correct. My 'take' is that if anyone's mind is not Up To Par there is a strong possibility the person is also religious.

We cannot call these folks "devout" because in many cases their observance of faith is mainly 'theoretical' of not actually effective on a practical basis.

One ethnicity was identified in the famed book "The Bell Curve" by a couple of qualified psychologist authors as having *quite* a lot lower intelligence than the average of other ethnic groups. That ethnic group is the one that's also the most relgious (in my opinion) and which has the highest percentage of IT'S population being housed in the prisons.

I frequently see personalized license plates that refer to religion here. One I can't forget was "4 GEEZUS". Whenever I see a license plate like that I have the eerie feeling I already know what the ethnicity is of that driver.

Robguy,
You are 100% correct that blacks and latin people tend to be both the most religious and most prone to crime in this country. Just look at the makeup of the prison population for confirmation. I think that IQ has a part in this but also education and the culture of dependence are to blame.
The book "The Bell Curve" was a wonderful read and the science in it, while politically incorrect to the highest degree, was sound. Is it any surprise that over $100,000 in tax money was wasted in a city like Jacksonville, FL on a "Day of Faith" and not in a place like Seattle, Minneapolis, or Boston? Last week it was Fl congresswoman Katherine Harris screeching that god elects our leaders here in America and now this state paid day of prayer...what's next?

*************
* Off Topic *
*************

Someone pointed out a FREE DVD on evolution, from the Howard Hughes Medical Institute (see link at the bottom).

When I say the DVD is free, I mean COMPLETELY FREE: you don't even have to pay for the shipping. No catches: I've already received mine, without paying a penny.

I watched the DVD twice so far. It's a series of 4 lectures on evolution, given to ~200 high-school students by two Ph.D.s: Sean B. Carroll gives 2 lectures and David Kingsley gives 2 others.

Personally, I found lecture 3 (Fossils, Genes, and Embryos) the best. One section of it goes into 4 problems that faced evolution back in Darwin's time (earth too young, no transitional fossils, advantagous novelties would be washed out by blending inheritance, and organisms are just too different) that have since been rendered sterile. In the process, Dr. Kingsley shows good evidence for the evolution of manatees and cetaceans from four-legged land animals, and discussed Hox genes and Pax6.

Of course, in a lecture to high school kids, the lecturers can't get too detailed or give all evidence available, but still, it's a really good DVD ... especially for being absolutely free.

http://www.hhmi.org/catalog/main?action=home

alexatheist,
You are (as usual) correcto-mento. For a while I'd lived in the souther U.S.also and was alarmed to find that place was "lousy" with arch-christians goofs. The degree of all-round dedication to xian religion there was profound. I was ex-miltary and learned it was politically incorrect to cuss in that venue. When a technician from New Jersey (for to the north) came there to adjust some technical equipment, his every statement included "Jesus Christ". I was SO accustomed to adhering to the roigorous religious traditions of that area I would almost 'flinch' when he said that!

A neighbor of mine was *terribly* relgious. Any time I met him in his adjacent yard he would "preach" at me. I was mature & needed NO indoctrination by anyone. His kid went to work where I was employed - but he couldn't last for the 90 day probation period.

Just like his crazy dad, that 20 year old kid had constantly preached Xianity to EVERYONE he could at EVERY opportunity! The guy was a friggin' broken record. Later I'd asked a budddy what became of this guy's dad "Jimmy" and he told me the man was put into the state mental hospital!

The southern U.S. is loaded with the fruitcake (nutty) variety of xians.

Oh my god (so to speak). The last two posts show that even atheists can be dumb.

I have in hand a little Washington Post poll that I had cut out of the paper a few months ago and stuck on my bulletin board as sort of a hiliarious reminder to myself about the idiocy of the American public. The question was "Do you think some faith healers have God-given power to heal, or do you think that faith healers have no such power?"

Below are the results of the poll.

Have no such power: 56%
Have God-given powers: 31%
No opinion: 13%

Percentage of each group who believe in faith healers:

Men: 22%
Women: 40%
Republicans: 41%
Democrats 34%
Independents 25%
High school graduate or less: 31%
Some college: 33%
College graduate: 31%

So, according to the two posters above, crimes should be most likely committed by women republicans with some college since they are the group that most believe in faith healers (and thus are the most religous group).

Gee, I wonder what the percentage of the prison population is made up of college-educated women republicans?

Actually, instead of looking at race, like the reprehensible "Bell Curve", why don't we look at sex. Most (serious) crime is committed by men. And most crime is committed also (in the U.S.) by Xians, because most people ARE Xians. A more careful analysis is needed to determine if there is any correlation between religiosity and criminal behavior.

I agree that belief in a god is irrational, but I don't think it leads to criminal behavior.

Oops, when I said the "last two posts" I forgot that other people are writing away too! I meant the two posts that extolled "The Bell Curve."

Hey, I'm from the South--I agree that there are a lot of crazy Xians there, but I'd rather live there than in Mormanland Utah!

Baptists may be assorted nuts, but they also know how to have a good time too!

As I said before, someone actually called the Northwest/Northeast, "secular" and I just beg to differ.
Maybe just slightly less evangelical, that's all.

Betelnut,
Just becasue you disagree with the inconvenient facts and science behind "The Bell Curve" doesn't make those of us who support it "dumb".
I just drove through Jacksonville, Fl, with it's twice the national average black population and nearly twice the national average violent crime rate, a few weeks back and you better believe that this white boy's doors were locked.

Utah is the exeption to the rule due to it's unique mormon heritage and I agree that I would rather be here in the sunny and warm South than out in snowy Utah.

Would someone be so kind as to click on KA's "Biblioblography" (from the blog roll list on the right side here) and tell me what the latest thread heading is?
I'm just checking something, cos on my puter, it's stuck on "Death here is thy sting", which isn't the latest thread.

Thanks in advance.

From the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey:
"The six states with the highest percentage of people saying they have no religion are all Western states, with the exception of Vermont at 22%.
Those who identify with "no religion" are in the majority in some Pacific Northwestern states, including Idaho, Oregon, Washington and Wyoming.

The Northeast and Northwest aren't more secular???

karen:
Hey, doll, try hitting F5.

KA
Done and did and now working. Thanks sweetheart!
Yours was the only blog it seemed to be stuck on though. Wonder why?

karen:
Hmmm...dunno. You're going to other blogs? I'm crushed (hehehehe).
F5 is just the refresh key. You can probably edit your preferences in Firefox to clean out your cache every X amount o' days.
I've seen minor issues elsewhere. Blogspot's just released a beta side-by-side w/it's regular version. I've noticed little glitches here 'n there on blogspot blogs. I didn't used to have to hit F5 to view me own most recent posts. Someone lost a comment on my blog (got an email), & I've seen some strangeness at BF's blog.

OFF TOPIC

A lot of people *hate* "The Bell Curve" book because they imagine it portrays a certain ethnic group 'unfairly' - as being less intelligent than ANY other ethnic group.

This bunch of book critics are the same ones who feel it is ESSENTIAL for the "all men are created equal" myth to be supported to the hilt - by whatever kind of propaganda works for doing that.

That book was a serious & scholarly study & nothing I know of that's been published for public consumption since it hit the book stalls has refuted what it declared.

KA

I've seen some strangeness at BF's blog.

ROTFLMAO!!!
(...that just tickled me.)
I know F5's refresh. I just keep fergittin' is all. I don't use those F'in keys much.:) Oddly though, I DID try the refresh icon, but all I got was the same page reloaded.

As an atheist I like to think that I live my life based on reality and facts even when those facts are uncomfortable or do not mesh well with my worldview. No one wants to think that certain racial groups are less capable than others but the cold hard facts support this and a place like Jacksonville, Fl shows this.
The taxpayers of this city have enough to contend with in an out of control violent crime rate to need to pay for some faith based love fest. The money could have been better spent on crime prevention.

Fellow atheists. I have never heard racist views expressed by a fellow atheist. Well I guess there is a first time for everything. Ixnay on the racism.

Daniel,
Alex is merely misguided. He mistakes the effects of poverty as something indigenous of a so-called "race".
Alex, I hope you see my perspective on this. It's about environment, not heredity.
Don't let tribalism blind you. It's just another way to separate like minded people from one another.
There are few clerics I admire. Martin Luther King is one of them, only for the reason that he was smart enough to utter something like this: "Do not measure a man by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character."
And I do not. Nor do I measure a person for their gender, sexual orientation or creed.
We are all humans. All humans are peers to other humans. No one is better or worse, only different(or better educated).
Finally Alex, there is no shame in being proud of your heritage, as long as you respect the heritage of those who came from a different place than you.
That is truly the American Dream...

Damn, I sound like a total hippee, don't I?
LOL

Betelnut,

On another site (republican with a heavy christian slant) I was ridiculed for stating that seeing as that most caught serial killers in the world are Americans and seeing that most Americans are christian it followed that most serial killers are christian. They couldn't make the connection, they couldn't deduce, in fact they called my statement illogical.

I for one don't think any religion has any direct influence on criminal behaviour which also means that it doesn't have any positive influence or to put it differently religion doesn't affect moral behaviour for the positive.

However the world at large thinks diffferent. I did a test on the bbv.co.uk site. My score improved with 2 points out of a total of 20 if I checked of being highly religeous instead of without religion. *shrug*

If one follows alexatheist reasoning then the Japanese are the masterrace.
It would also mean that US citizens are rather low on the totempole.

Alexatheist, you really should try to find some empathy. Stating what you do is as bad as saying that because you just ate no one else can be hungry.

Perhaps look at the reports of where the emergency help arrived and how it arrived at the time of Katrina. What the difference was between being in a "white" part and being in a "black" part of a city.
Perhaps also face that for all the chest thumping about freedom and liberty the US still has a deeply ingrained racisme on all levels not for a small part helped by the religious hypocrites.

"If one follows alexatheist reasoning then the Japanese are the masterrace."

Japan was practically a Third World country until after WWII when the West took advantage of it's cheap labour force to produce our goods. The Japanese are very good at copying the innovations of others but are not very strong at originality themselves.

"It would also mean that US citizens are rather low on the totempole."

Not European Americans

Look I don't want to argue about something which people can't discuss rationally becasue of emotions. I just deal in the facts and am not afraid to accept that what I am told about race doesn't match what I see. Ten years of living and working in or near Durham, NC which is 70% black will make all but the most ardent head-in-the-sand person think the way I do which is a total turn around from my politics of ten years ago. Read "The Bell Curve" and you might also see reason.
Now, let's get back on topic...tax payer money being wasted on prayer...

Comment from: alexatheist

I just drove through Jacksonville, Fl, with it's twice the national average black population and nearly twice the national average violent crime rate, a few weeks back and you better believe that this white boy's doors were locked.

Wow...what a racist comment. But at least you're honest.

But I'm confused. I thought you blamed violence on Christians, not playing the race card and blaming blacks...?

There were people of all faiths there and there were people of no faith there

IMO once proven this is where you'll fail. It was "inclusive" not "exclusive".

I'll bet there would of been no law suite if Dave had been invited...

This also proves an earlier quote...

"Not only do atheists not want God in their life, they don't want God in your life either".

And once again...more whining and complaining.

Someone tell me how YOU'D spend the 100 grand to try and combat crime.

If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem...

I knew phreedummy would come out sooner or later.

Someone tell me how YOU'D spend the 100 grand to try and combat crime.

If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem...

Simple. Create a center that would give kids something do for free that is educational and fun, for all ages.

"This also proves an earlier quote...

"Not only do atheists not want God in their life, they don't want God in your life either"."

No, it doesn't. That statement is a lie. You are a liar. Try this...

Not only do atheists not want gods in their life, they don't want to pay for gods in your life either.

We don't care what you believe as long as we're not paying for it...monetarily or otherwise. What part of this concept of this are you not getting...?

OFF TOPIC to alexatheist:

You're doing exactly the same as I do. I read about the science or technology and I try to absorb it and perhaps put it to use. If we have a lot of New Age jerk-offs who are trying to brainwash me on some topic such as "all races are completely the same" (which means I am a F-ing criminal for NOT agreeing completely) - it's just Too Bad.

The "all people are created equal" gang is crazy or stupid. My father had moved to the South to take a better job. He lived in a place where (as you've stated) the black population was very high. He was quite smart and in fact taught college.

After 5 to 10 years that man would occasionally have something 'negative' to say, concerning that ethnic group - which was sometimes funny. Was he wrong?? No! Was he "bigoted" against those people? Hell no he wasn't. But after he'd livd there for a number of years he had virtually NO furhter regard for the great majority of that group.

So we may come here to post and escape (for the most part) the unalloyed propaganda (bullcrap) that's always purveyed by the religious folks. Great!

But be mighty careful if you have anything to say (even you are CORRECT) that's uncomplimentary about any race! Here we are NOT free of ALL the propaganda that most Americans are being sucked-into believing by any means. We still have "sacred cows" that can't stnd to be criticizied, not even for REAL good scientifically valid reasons.

This situation exists because many individuals plan to adhere to THEIR particular brand of mythology, regardless of what's the truth.

I'm still awaiting the list of 'secular organizations' that participated.

alexatheist:

Japan was practically a Third World country until after WWII when the West took advantage of it's cheap labour force to produce our goods. The Japanese are very good at copying the innovations of others but are not very strong at originality themselves.

Wow, that's so incorrect on so many levels, I'm staggered.
First off, Japan was by no means a '3rd world country' at any point in time. How many 3rd worlders manage to invade a country the size of China?
From the Encyclopedia:
"Third World, the technologically less advanced, or developing, nations of Asia, Africa, and Latin America, generally characterized as poor, having economies distorted by their dependence on the export of primary products to the developed countries in return for finished products. These nations also tend to have high rates of illiteracy, disease, and population growth and unstable governments."
Japan's NEVER been in ANY of these categories outside of population growth.
As to the 'lack of originality', I'd suggest you do some reading up on the culture of Nippon. They had an entire world of their own (fiercely insular up until the Portugese began trade route w/them in the 1600's).
Also had suicide built into their culture (something 1 NEVER sees in others), they also have a knack for taking an original idea, & improving it, which isn't quite the same as simply blindly copying it.
The Japanese are clever, innovative people.
Jeez, where do you get all this crap, anyways?

Ok, some points of order:
Alex and robguy,
No, people are not the same. That is a silly notion. However, to say one is better or worse due to their lineage is just as silly. I mean, there are the environmental factors at play here; poverty is the biggest one when you talk about the african american population in general.
Now, phreedouchebag,
What, you think they would actually say that there were no non religious people there? Of course not! That would run counter to the propaganda. Maybe they should have polled the crowd, because I seriously doubt any atheist would attend a day of faith. That's a stupid assertion on its' face. Just as stupid as to claim there is a god.

Florida Faith Rally:

Here's a comment made by a "reverend" who was heavy-into that rally (or whatever they called it),

"The Rev. Mark Griffin, pastor of Wayman Chapel AME in Jacksonville, disagreed with those who characterize the rally as a religious revival."

'Course, him being a "reverend" maybe to was to HIS advantage to SAY it wasn't a religious revival. My thanks and kudos go to the American Atheists who are chalenging the governmental funding of that 'rally'. As we know already, the religious goofs will always use ANY ploy they possibly can to further their mythological-nonsense agenda.

Fairly recently in PA there was a decision by a U.S. court judge stating that a school board there had WRONGLY ruled that "Intelligent Design" should be taught - as an realistic alternative to the scientifically proven "evolution" principle!

This judge had released a couple hundred page decision (approx.) in which he stated that the proponents who favored teaching of I.D. in the schools WERE in fact STRONGLY religion-driven, while they'd pretended to be otherwise. This was (the judge stated) a clear demonstration that those religion supporters had LIED in order to have their agenda instituted.

Thus we see *again* that for the screwed-up Xians to LIE, Cheat, Purjure or Steal is "no problemo" if that will advance THEIR worthless mythology as though it were "factual".

Another qoute from this "reverend" Griffin was:

"I think it was money well spent and I don't think it was inappropriate at all," Griffin said Friday. He said the event's focus was on preventing homicides, not on promoting any one faith over another.


Yes - they want to prevent homicides through PRAYER. I've seen quite a few bumper stickers saying "Stop The Killing". This sticker shows the *silhouettes* of numerous people. I say "silhouettes" because the figures are entirely black on a light background & no details of the people can be seen.
(So "Stop The Killing" is a plea to WHOM??)

This was also the reason once given to us Catholic kids in parochial school, for the Catholic Church asserting it was "sinful" to use birth control. The nuns told us it was beneficial if MORE prayers were heard "upstairs" by God. This is a mighty Big Joke. There is NO god to listen to anybody's prayers!

And if any so-called "god" HAD really constructed this universe (including Earth & our ancestors) it's quite likely "He" could find more amusing things to do than to listen to our pitiful prayers.

Japan's post WWII Economic Miracle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_post-war_economic_miracle

Again, just becasue we are uncomfortable with differences in races and ethnicities doesn't mean they don't exist and the fact is that some groups are just more capable than others. Without the British and especially American investment in Japan after WWII it would have remained an agricultural backwater economy.

"poverty is the biggest one {environmental factor) when you talk about the african american population in general"

Who is to blame for that continued legacy of poverty and dependence? European colonialism and repression are not the whole story. This failure is not unique to African-Americans but is seen as the norm in sub-Saharan Africa and places like Haiti and Jamiaca which are populated by a majority black population. Africa and Africans continue to be dismal failures at almost everything and anyone who spends ten years in Durham, NC (70% black and NC's murder capitol) will have to eventually come to this uncomfortable conclusion.

alexatheist:

Again, just becasue we are uncomfortable with differences in races and ethnicities doesn't mean they don't exist and the fact is that some groups are just more capable than others.

Capable at what? There's societal restrictions - most of those factors aren't genetic, by any stretch.

Without the British and especially American investment in Japan after WWII it would have remained an agricultural backwater economy.

'Remained'? It wasn't like that pre-war, or it probably wouldn't have been a member of the Axis

Africa and Africans continue to be dismal failures at almost everything and anyone who spends ten years in Durham, NC (70% black and NC's murder capitol) will have to eventually come to this uncomfortable conclusion.

Well, I'm the 1st to admit there are genetic differences, but holy shit!
I'm sure glad I don't live in your world.
There are plenty of stats for failure in every race. It's usually due to poverty & education.
There's plenty of ghettoes in other parts of the world, where the population isn't black.
What a dimly veiled argument from popularity THAT is.
I ran w/the carnies in my youth, & trust you me:
That kinda shit isn't exclusive to ANY race.

alexatheist:
Before you start in, some caveats:
I'm not being PC (you've accused me before) - if I WERE PC, I'd not be an atheist, now would I?
Here's a list of links:
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CIVAFRCA/IRONAGE.HTM
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/anc-nafrica.html
http://www.archaeolink.com/ancient_african_civilizations.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wonders/main.htm
http://www.culturekiosque.com/art/exhibiti/rhesouda.htm
http://www.mrdowling.com/609-nok.html
http://users.vnet.net/alight/aksum/mhak1.html

Showing a plethora of ancient civilizations in Africa - predominantly black, just so ya know - 1 of them, the Nok, skipped the Stone age, to the Iron age, Carthage was an African civilization, Nubia, Zimbabwe, hell, Somalia had trade routes into China & India WAY before Columbus or Marco Polo, Ethiopia & Libya were once EMPIRES - shit, the only thing I can say negative about Africans is that they sure didn't know how to fight wars - but they sure were good at a helluva lot of other things.
Pwned.

*************
* Off Topic *
*************

Great 2-hr anti-Intelligent Design, pro-evolution lecture by Ken Miller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg&mode=related&search=

(If the link doesn't work for some reason, try searching www.YouTube.com. The 'opening credits' show the lecture titled as "The Collapse of Intelligent Design" but the caption while watching the video shows "Ken Miller on Intelligent Design").

PS: The really good stuff starts somewhere around 30 minutes in.

OFF TOPIC to Crystalline Apostate

As far as Japan goes after WW-2 had ended - the industrial heart of that whole country had been almost totally *destroyed*. I spent only 1 year there as a kid so my "raw" opinion may not matter that much.

But being interested in Japan in later years made me a semi-student and strong admirer of their behavior and philosophy. The Japanese may be the hardest working & most goal-dedicated people in the world, bar NONE. While other people, e.g., may bathe only when they "need to" - it's my impression the Japanese nearly ALWAYS bathe *daily* - just a hint about their strong dedication to "correct behavior".

The fact that Japan was nearly UTTERLY destroyed to the point the people were close to starvation is supported by what General Joe Stillwell had viewed in Japan immediately after that war ended.

Stillwell had begged the Air Corps commanding General, LeMay, in the Mariannas to bomb the Chinese with his B-29s - but that request was refused. Stillwell was adamant that a far more effective bombing campaign could be done in China than against the Japanese homeland.

Later Gen. Stillwell visited Japan right after the war and he discovered that the B-29s had nearly totally DESTROYED Japan! The amazed Stillwell then made a long and tiring journey just to *apologize* to General Curtis LeMay for failing to realize his bombers real power.

LeMay later cited Gen. Stillwell's special for admitting to him he'd been wrong, as a good indication of Stillwell's character and overall sterling qualities.

This info comes from the book
"Joseph Stillwell and The American Experience In China; 1911 -1945" (rather sure) by Barbara Tuchman - housewife extraordinaire.

Among other things - this tends to show that alexatheist is correct when he mentions that the Japanese NEEDED lots of aid from the U.K. and the U.S. to put their country back together.

As he suggested - their whole industrial base was extirely destroyed. Regardless of how well developed they were *prior* to WW-2, the Japanese were quite "Shit out of luck" shortly after that war.

OFF TOPIC to Crystalline Apostate

Oh - you ran with the carnies did you? I guess you got to see a helluva lot of losers who WEREN'T of the afro persuasion then, hey? You say that there are *lots* of ghettos that are NOT inhabited by the blacks - that right?

But it *doesn't* matter WHAT you personally saw. What does matter is what you'll find when you open your Big Almanac & look up the statistics in there. Sure - there are plenty of non-afros who aren't doing well at all. But - statistically - those other peoples' plight does NOT look very "terrible" comparitively when you read the statistics.

There's a couple of books you guys might find interesting:

"Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies"
My brother and I discuss the ideas contained within. I thought it is an interesting discussion of (I'm a little too tired to come up with my own summation, so I borrowed this from the reviews):
Available crops for domestication
Available animals for domestication
Ease Of Technology transfer (east/west is easier than north/south and mountains and oceans are a problem)

It seems to be a fascinating look at why some societies do better than others. His newest book:
"Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" looks to be interesting as well. Check 'em out and see if it adds to the discussion. I seem to read soooo slooowly these days. Oh well... I get it in where I can.

I think both of these books focus a bit more on the larger picture rather than race specifically, but I find myself more and more interested in this level of discussion.

***OFF TOPIC***

That book "Guns Germs, and Steel" sounds like it would be downright interesting. My reading rate was extremely slow recently also - until I was able to eliminate some of the mercury toxins (plus perhaps other metals too) that have been locked-in me for many *years*. What a big relief that is!

Thanks a lot to spanders for the tip about this book.

Oh - you ran with the carnies did you? I guess you got to see a helluva lot of losers who WEREN'T of the afro persuasion then, hey? You say that there are *lots* of ghettos that are NOT inhabited by the blacks - that right?
I have. They're known as trailer parks, and they're predominantly WHITE. We got a lot of them here in Misery, and they usually show up on the evening news because people are shot there, have meth labs, or a tornado throws them around.
Poverty does not recognize DNA. It's an equal oppotunity cancer on all people.

My drive-by post:

"The Bell Curve" has been pretty thoroughly de-bunked as pseudoscience - quoting it as evidence for your position is probably not a good idea.

Oh, and Spanders is right:
Jared Diamond books rock.

Oh yeah, and Phreedm asked

Someone tell me how YOU'D spend the 100 grand to try and combat crime.

Well, 100 grand is not a whole lot to spend when it comes right down to it, but I would like to see more non-sectarian community support groups, volunteer crime watch programs, youth centers, women's shelters, and drug rehab centers.

Go ahead, somebody call me a socia1ist - I dare ya.

robguy387:

Oh - you ran with the carnies did you? I guess you got to see a helluva lot of losers who WEREN'T of the afro persuasion then, hey?

I'm not sure I care much for your tone, son.
Sure, I ran w/the carnies. I've also programmed computers, I'm an autodidact, speak 2 languages, & a tai chi teacher.
So less of the attitude, if you please.
Name is spelled w/a 'K', BTW.

You say that there are *lots* of ghettos that are NOT inhabited by the blacks - that right?

Sure - never been to Bangkok, or Cambodia - but I know that there're ghettoes there. There are gay ghettoes, Scottish ghettoes - they're everywhere.

But it *doesn't* matter WHAT you personally saw.

My point is...I've been around. Long enough to know ain't nuthin' all cut & dried.

What does matter is what you'll find when you open your Big Almanac & look up the statistics in there. Sure - there are plenty of non-afros who aren't doing well at all. But - statistically - those other peoples' plight does NOT look very "terrible" comparitively when you read the statistics.

You mean the World Almanac?
Got link? Got studies? You mean in this country? 'Cause, buddy me boyo, I can pretty much guess w/o looking it up, that ghettoes in the 3rd world countries, THOSE folk ain't doin' so well 'comparatively'.
Of course, the 'Big Alamanac' probably doesn't quite get around to those places, is my guess.

r4d:

Go ahead, somebody call me a socia1ist - I dare ya.

I just got off the phone - he'll be at your house in an hour.
You should drop in more - we miss ya here.

"Poverty does not recognize DNA. It's an equal oppotunity cancer on all people."

Sure there are poor, uneducated, low class white people but the numbers don't lie. Europeans are the least likely to be poor in the USA and Africans the most:

http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/povrace.html

Look I'm not saying that non whites deserve different treatment or respect but I am just asking you to pull your collective heads out of the sand and connect the dots. Look I'm a gay man and I'll be the first to tell you that gay men are less able to form stable relationships and are a high risk group for HIV. I accept facts even when they are unpleasant and the fact is that places like Jacksonville, Fl which has more Africans also has more crime and ignorance than the national average and the two almost always go hand in hand. I don't see the almost totally white city of Seattle in the middle of an epidemic of violent crime and prayer vigils.
Connect the dots.

Alex:

Europeans are the least likely to be poor in the USA and Africans the most:

Gee, & who are there more of? What does that tell you?

Look I'm not saying that non whites deserve different treatment or respect but I am just asking you to pull your collective heads out of the sand and connect the dots.

Excuse me, but I'm not being an ostrich about this. More poor, uneducated? More crime. It's NOT indicative of race.
& I quote:

Africa and Africans continue to be dismal failures at almost everything and anyone who spends ten years in Durham, NC (70% black and NC's murder capitol) will have to eventually come to this uncomfortable conclusion.

You're making a broad generalized statement on 1 race, based on your own negative experiences.
I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. That's up to you.

I accept facts even when they are unpleasant and the fact is that places like Jacksonville, Fl which has more Africans also has more crime and ignorance than the national average and the two almost always go hand in hand.

& you're likely to get attacked & rolled by a ladyboy in Bangkok. You may get mugged in the streets of Cambodia.
My point, is that this isn't restricted to race alone.
Fact is, 400 yrs. of oppression tend to make people a little irritable. Slap poor on top of that, you get a lotta anger.
Fact is, if I were in those shoes, I don't know friendly I'd be.
Crime's symptomatic of something very wrong w/any society.
Rather than pointing a finger, ask why.

I can't help but find it sad.

According to some people's reasoning that race and crime are related it should mean that the biggest known gansters should be afro-americans.

And here was silly old me that thought that the biggest names in crime in the US were if not Sicilian then certainly Italian. Throw in a couple of Irish and a sprinkle of Jews and you have the top echelon of most mob families of the last 100 years.

to Kite666:
It was (and may well still be) that the Biggest Crimnals were from the area of Italy, particularly Sicilly. But that was only *organized* crime.

When we get down to the day-to-day crime that is NOT actually highly lucrative - as would be the case with the Mob and the Rackets. The "crime" referred to by alexatheist is just the *everyday* variety. Contrary to your remark above "according to some people's reasoning" that the afro-americans 'should' be "the biggest known gangsters" instead of the Sicillians IF the afros were BIG into crime - it requires NO "reasoning" at all to simply research the statistics.

Since this has got to be such a HOT issue - and the Whole WORLD wants to rush to the rescue of this luckless & downtrodden ethnic group which is being "descriminated against" here by anyone who mentions their group has 'limitations' - I did some research.

I looked in an almanac for the *states" - not the world. This showed that the number of homicides in Washington D.C. was about 44 per 100,000 population. Then read the homicide rates for Vermont and New Hampshire and what do you find? As I recall one state had about 1.7 homicides per 100,000 citizens and the other had maybe 1.9 homicides for every 100,000 citizens.

Why is the homocide rates (in the mid 1990s) 20 TIMES as high in D.C. as it was in Vermont and New Hampshire? Does that have *anything* to do with the fact that D.C. is virtually POSSESSED by afro-americans?

Is it not ALSO correct to state that the *reason* WHY the afro-americans have totally crowded into D.C. is because it is run and is financially supported by the U.S. government (the taxpayers) which means there is almost UNLIMITED money used for free "social services" for the poor people living there?

Is it not also correct to state that the money these Senators and Representatives SPEND in their attempt to have D.C. be a "model city" is what DRAWS a lot of poor, indigents and friggin loafers who PREFER to be supported at public expense?

So it is NOT really any "reasoning" that makes anyone arrive at the conclusions alexatheist has reached in his above messages - is it? 'Fraid not.

Alexatheist is merely citing bald-faced FACTS. I don't "like" those facts any more than anyone else does. But alexatheist is NOT any kind of Azzhole for knowing such not-PC-correct facts are real ones.

Well.....no matter where ya go....there you are

How did this thread go from pointing out the careless use of tax payer money to describing civilizations

I have no use for cultural pride or prick waving....

Arguing over what an ethnic group does or did is pointless....you might as well be born again

Will we ever make the quantum leap to sanity....Maybe the information age will help point out peoples similarities instead of their differences.....do not the twigs have a common branch from which they reach

piece

I’m late in the (off topic) conversation and need to run off...
but a few thoughts...

Rob,

First, I’m pretty sure there are some major differences between Vermont/New Hampshire and DC. I think we might need a few more controls in that one…

Second,

Alexatheist is merely citing bald-faced FACTS. I don't "like" those facts any more than anyone else does. But alexatheist is NOT any kind of Azzhole for knowing such not-PC-correct facts are real ones.

You guys aren’t just citing facts; you’re citing facts and about crime and the like and assuming race must be the cause. Correlation isn’t the same as causation. KA and Da Rat Bastid have already made some excellent points about how poverty is a much more likely culprit for the problems you cite.

Finally, just because it’s not politically correct doesn’t mean it’s correct.

I’ll join Spanders and Rainbows and vouch for Diamond’s book Guns, Germs, and Steel. It shows how geography, resources, and disease rather than race can explain many of the current differences between various groups and societies.

To Charlie et al: OFF TOPIC

All one needs to do here is mention "The Bell Curve" and we instantly have the Super-Anti-Bigotry-Arch-Activists foaming at the mouth. To those guys, mere mention of that scholarly work is tantamount to saying "Yo mamma sux real cheap".

To even mention the title of that book is the same as challenging that crowd to mortal combat & they wanna drive an oaken stake through your worthless heart.

When the renowned scientist William Shockley had announced late in life that humanity needed to improve its average intelligence - he was hounded into obscurity and became hated! Even (the late) Isaac Asimov had guffawed that Schockley donated his sperm at a sperm bank known for fertilizing women wanting to have very gifted children. When Schockly died, even his own children had to read about that in the newspapers, for only his wife still remained his friend. Here was a brilliant Phd Nobel prize winner who was SAVAGELY treated by the folks who wanted to FACTS to be *different*.

Everyones' egos and a lot of "racial pride" is tied up in such issues as touched on (tangentially) by alexatheist and myself above. It's really Too Damn Bad that a sane converstaion can't be had without the possibility of a Race Riot getting started.

The CONTROVERSIAL issues raised by the book "The Bell Curve" have been shoveled under the rug by those who deem all FACTS always need to meet with their approval in order to be considered as 'true' information. Somewhat oddly, that is also *exactly* how the dedicated Xians (and other religious folk) react when they're trying to insist that *their* beliefs are actually based on reality.

We cannot alter what's real by a snap of the fingers, to have it be "nice as birthday cake".

Everyones' egos and a lot of "racial pride" is tied up in such issues as touched on (tangentially) by alexatheist and myself above. It's really Too Damn Bad that a sane converstaion can't be had without the possibility of a Race Riot getting started.

(blinks at Rob)

I saw no “Race Riot.” I saw people challenging your shaky leap from particular statistics that picked from various sources to some pretty hefty claims of “well, all this must be caused by race.”

We cannot alter what's real by a snap of the fingers, to have it be "nice as birthday cake".

Cake, huh? Just because it makes people cringe, doesn’t mean they are denying what’s true out of a sense of political correctness (or because they want birthday cake or whatever). They might be cringing because it is, indeed, possible to both sounds offensive still be incorrect.

No matter how poetically you want to make it sound, your post in no way answers challenges to the various facts and opinions you’re throwing at the board. All you are offering is a somewhat analogous situation and a poor caricature of the other side of the argument. If you have issues with challenges to your facts and leaps, take issue with those challenges. Leave out the entire, “oh, you’re just trying to be politically correct” crap, please.

(coughs) There shouldn't be a that before picked, sounds should be sound and poetically should be poetic. Wow. That was typo-lific. (shakes head at self)

robguy387:

All one needs to do here is mention "The Bell Curve" and we instantly have the Super-Anti-Bigotry-Arch-Activists foaming at the mouth. To those guys, mere mention of that scholarly work is tantamount to saying "Yo mamma sux real cheap".

Not me. I had my shots already. ;)

To even mention the title of that book is the same as challenging that crowd to mortal combat & they wanna drive an oaken stake through your worthless heart.

Yeesh, & I thought I was melodramatic.
I hadn't even heard of the bloody thing till this thread.
I'm going to have to address this next statement:

Why is the homocide rates (in the mid 1990s) 20 TIMES as high in D.C. as it was in Vermont and New Hampshire? Does that have *anything* to do with the fact that D.C. is virtually POSSESSED by afro-americans?

Hey, the numbers have merit, the conclusion drawn from them doesn't.
You can spout all the numbers you want, all they tell me are 2 things:
1. Racism is still an issue in this society, &
2. Our education system needs to address all those children 'left behind'.
Still most quantifiably NOT a matter of 'inferior' genetics. I used historical examples to disprove that.
Once you start w/the 'inferior/superior' crapola, you create a schism.
Japanese have a wonderful saying (you know, those '3rd worlders'?): "Fix the problem, not the blame."

As was shown by the situation originally meant as the 'thread' of this topic - the arch-Xtian folks go to extremes trying to spread their idiotic propaganda. In Florida they hold what is really a Prayer Rally to which those "of any religion" are welcomed, at a cost of maybe $122,000 to the taxpayer. But given the X-ians propensity for lying, the cost may have been higher.

We've also got a different batch of Xian folks (goofs) who are now creating a Creationist Museum in the Cincinnatti area. The ads for that "museum" state that it will be about 90,000 square feet initially and is said will cost about $25 millon. It is supposed to open in 2007, so everybody should start making plans now.

There will be displays and perhaps videos that show DINOSAURS and people living side by side! As we know from reading science-related texts, the dinosaurs became extinct a LONG time before humans had ever walked the earth.

Some of the oldest man-like fossils I've heard about include the one called "Lucy" who was a tiny human-like woman from maybe 4 to 5 million years ago. That fossil was also found in the Olduvai (spell?) gorge in Africa by one of the Leaky folks.

We have dinosaurs - which critters ALL went VERY extinct in only a few years, occurring about 65 million. Thus this X-ian museun is based on TOTAL falsehood invented by Xian "theologians". If there were NO dinosaurs any *later* than 65 million years ago - and NO proto-humans had existed *earlier* than about 5 to 10 million years ago, it is IMPOSSIBLE to say that "people" who resemble modern day humans were present at the same time dinosaurs existed.

Here again, this is just one more case of the X-ians attemting to "stretch" reality in order to make THEIR theologial nonsense appear as though it's *real*.

But it aint real.

This is similar to the 'reverend' Griffin telling the press that "everyone was welcome" and church membership was NOT checked at the door of that FL prayer rally.

They did not *need* to check for church membership cuz' no self-respecting atheist would have even wanted to attend any prayer session -whether that rally was intended to reduce homicides or not.

(OFF TOPIC?)
Seems the topic has become about race. If you didn't think race was an issue pre-Katrina (you know, that meme about a colorblind society the republicans tried telling us for the last couple of decades), I'm betting you do now.I don't think of it as a race issue, but a class issue.
Sure, there are plenty of problems associated with race, such as the attitude of most african americans toward education, i.e., "If you try to excell in school, you're 'an Oreo'". Street gangs. The desire for the "bling-bling" or to have a car that costs more than your house in the typical "ghetto fabulous" fashion.
I've seen it all here. In the african american communities in St. Louis, we have unemployment rates that hover around 20%. While I was canvassing neighborhoods in the last electoral cycle, I saw people live in places that should be condemned. Almost all of them lived in houses with lead paint still in them, which causes retardation! Most were black, but there was lots of White Trash, too. There were also the trailer parks in the southern part of the metro area, too. I still remember the odor of urine and meth labs wafting through them...
It didn't matter what the color of their skin was, the disease of poverty affected them the same way.
Illiteracy. Despreation. Hunger. Hopelesness. Hatred.
More than once I cried at the end of the day. It also taught me that poverty is the root cause of crime. I mean, how can you expect someone to be an upstanding citizen, go to work at McDonald's or Taco Bell when you make more money selling drugs, robbing people, or stealing cars?
Yes, a good education can kill poverty, but so does a good paying job with benefits. You know, union scale pay.
You want to blame someone? Blame a government and society that wipes their feet on the poor, ignores its' responsibility to humanity because they want a tax cut on their Hummers and yachts, does not hold multinational corporations accountable for their human rights infractions, and has a federal minimum wage that proportionately is the lowest in 50 years.

O.K. I just became a member today. This is the first post I came across. I enjoy a good "nigger" or faggot" joke as much as the next person. But goddamn alexatheist, if you're going to use only The Bell Curve to make your weak point, why don't you take a look at what the majority of the scientific community has to say about the books "evidence".

First off, would you place validity into a science book on evolution funded by a Christin organization? I'll assume not because you post on this board. Then why in the hell would you quote research paid for by the Pioneer Fund? Know who thet are?
"The Pioneer Fund was set up in 1937 by Wickliffe Draper, a millionaire who advocated sending blacks back to Africa. The foundation's charter set forth the group's missions as "racial betterment" and aid for people "deemed to be descended primarily from white persons who settled in the original 13 states prior to the adoption of the Constitution of the United States." (In 1985, after Pioneer Fund grant recipients began receiving political heat, the charter was slightly amended to play down the race angle--Link here:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1271

I don't need to go on, but if you want some reasons why this book has been debunked time and time again....
http://www.srv.net/~msdata/bell.html

http://www.slate.com/id/2416

Alexatheist, I'm not calling you a racist. It does seem you have fear towards blacks though. You also used personal experiance to make your case. That's also what religious folks use. That's fine. I live in Philadelphia which happens to be leading the US in murders this year(secular northeast). I try to avoid many areas and have my own fears. But I don't try to use science to back up my own stereotypes. That is wrong on so many levels, and I did not expect this on a board of "rational people"

If I may play devil's advocate for Jacksonville for just a moment...

There are certainly red flags here--the title of the event being the most glaring, BUT...

This event seems a little more in a gray area to me. For instance, the city says that various religions were represented, and secular organizations were also involved. Also, the aim of the event was not promotion of religion but anti-violence--and while I may find that an oxymoron, I am wondering about the question of intent.

Its hard to know what the event was "really" like from just the article. Was there a derogatory message toward atheists (we are often blamed for all the world's problems, but did that in fact happen here?)

I only bring this up for honest clarification...not to somehow excuse clergy of preaching on the publics dime.

Comment to luke37 OFF TOPIC

It was me who started this argument when I'd referred to The Bell Curve book. Then we had a few who wanted to retaliate by insisting it was "nasty" (or the equivalent) to even refer to that tome. I have some interesting "numbers" on Wash. D.C. that strongly indicate there is NO DOUBT that the afro population brings about TOO HIGH amounts of crime.

"The Bell Curve" was NOT the original publication to announce that the this ethnic group was lagging in intelligence. That was announced by the famed Nobel laureate physicist William shockley who led the team at Bell Labs that invented the transistor. Look it up on "Infopedia" (perhaps) and I think you will find they claim that Schockley was thought of as one of the most brilliant scientiest of the 20th century.

This correlates well with what happened in the life of the little known genius William James Sidis too. As a young guy he was getting badgered a lot, for saying such things as he would never marry. This kid was giving matematics lectures at Harvard at age 14!

Sidis became quite 'pissed' at the whole world - because its inhabitants are quite stupid. Or at least compared to William Sidis they were. So Sidis then REFUSED to use his fantassic mind to do ANYTHING that would be of significant value to the inhabitants of Earth.

In like fashion - William Schockley was also hated and mistreated after he suggested the whole world needed to have its average level of intelligence improved through selective breeding. He was castigated thoroughly after he announced that the american blacks had only an average I.Q. of about "85". Was Schockley wrong? NO - he was correct - but the average person of *little* intelligence DID NOT WANT to hear any of Schockley's idea. So Schockley was ridiculed and he died isolated from all his former friends and admirers. The goddam (average?) people were SO stupid they found it "useful" to ridicule an enormously intelligent scientist - rather than to pay attention to the significant things he was saying to them.

Then maybe 25 years later we had The Bell Curve book being published which said in part Schockley was WRONG!

Their studies (Murray and Herndon?) indicated that the average intelligence of American blacks was NOT 85% of the average for the rest of the population - it was only 82% of the rest of the population.

Blame a government and society that wipes their feet on the poor, ignores its' responsibility to humanity because they want a tax cut on their Hummers and yachts, does not hold multinational corporations accountable for their human rights infractions, and has a federal minimum wage that proportionately is the lowest in 50 years.

This pisses me off. Most of society doesn't have Hummers or yachts. A lot of us would just like to save enough money to retire. You would like to tax the hell out of everyone to make the lives of people that don't want to earn their way better.

You've already pointed out the solution to the problem: education. Fuck all the social programs. Fuck welfare. Fuck social security. Especially fuck taxing me more!

Sink all that damn money into building a real education system for these people. Then, put a sunset clause on it. If it doesn't improve their way of life, they simply don't want it. Then leave them to their devices. If it does radically change their society, then I'm all for spending exactly how much I spend on taxes now.

Welfare hasn't fixed the problem. Social Security hasn't either. There are still poor people. I don't hate poor people, but I do hate it when people think with their emotions and not with their brains. I have little sympathy for someone whom is poor because they want their "bling bling." I have little sympathy for a culture that sneers at education.

From robguy387: "What does matter is what you'll find when you open your Big Almanac & look up the statistics in there. Sure - there are plenty of non-afros who aren't doing well at all. But - statistically - those other peoples' plight does NOT look very "terrible" comparitively when you read the statistics."

So Jacksonville, Florida is populated by statistics? My guess is that a lot of potential investors, who consider themselves to be people, look at places like Jacksonville and think "Well, if we're going to live here, let's build a gated community for the people, someplace away from all of those pesky statistics." The investors put their inherited wealth where they're most comfortable with it, leaving the statistics without much inherited wealth at all.

From alexatheist: "Look I'm a gay man and I'll be the first to tell you that gay men are less able to form stable relationships and are a high risk group for HIV. I accept facts even when they are unpleasant...."

Well, this gay man will inform you that you are not dealing in "facts" when you state that "gay men are less able to form stable relationships...." You are making a generalization based on statistics that probably describe men in general, and are more pronounced, for that reason, in male-male relationships than in male-female relationships.

Personally, I've found many of your claims on this blog to be highly specious, including your claim about Japan in this thread.

Bottom line: learn what statistics are.

comment to Robguy387

This is an interesting conversation. But again I have to disagree. William Shockley was a brilliant person. His belief in eugenics may have tarnished him in his later years, but nobody denies the the overall importance of most of his work. Shockley's beliefs were largely based on the research of Cyril Burt.

from wikipedia:

From the late 1970s it has been generally accepted that at least a majority of this research was fraudulent, due in large part to research by Oliver Gillie (1976) and Leon Kamin (1974). The possibility of fraud was first brought to the attention of the scientific community when Kamin noticed that Burt's correlation coefficients of Monozygotic and Dizygotic twins' IQ scores were the same to three decimal places, across articles--even when new data were twice added to the sample of twins. Leslie Hearnshaw, a close friend of Burt and his official biographer, concluded after examining the criticisms that most of Burt's data from after World War II were unreliable or fraudulent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Burt

Smart does not always mean correct.

It seems funny to me how some members of "America's Most Distrusted Minority" can be so racist.

I used to be ignorant about other races, having grown up in an all white community, but chose to keep an open mind about it,(or was skeptical about what I was told by others). Because of this I've been able to make friends with Blacks and Hispanics and am open to anyone else who is different from me.

I think keeping an open mind and looking at all root causes are the real ways to understand and combat crime, not faith based initiatives.

Atomic Testing,
You're accusing me of something I did not say. Re-read it:

Blame a government and society that wipes their feet on the poor, ignores its' responsibility to humanity because they want a tax cut on their Hummers and yachts, does not hold multinational corporations accountable for their human rights infractions, and has a federal minimum wage that proportionately is the lowest in 50 years.

Now, what did you write?

Most of society doesn't have Hummers or yachts.

Now, where does that imply that I want to raise your taxes?
Unfortunmately, the Libertarian propaganda has led people to fight over the crumbs the mega-rich throw for us. We end up shooting our economic stbility by shopping at Wal Mart. We give no-bid contracts worth billions to Halliburton, and they get a tax refund. We allow power companies to gouge us on our bills, yet the energy companies are turning bigger profits.
Your taxes have already been raised anyway. Only the corporations call them "profits".
Bought gas lately? Hello??? War Tax!

Also, it's a well known fact that 1% of the population controls 80% of the economy. Doesn't sound like a "free" market to me!

Sounds like the old "Nature vs Nurture" argument to me. If you take the black (mexican, native american, etc) child out of poverty, would he still have the propensity towards criminal activity. Put him into an educated family, would he still have a lower IQ?

We are not just the genetic products of out parents, we're also products of our environment.

Okay, last word on the 'Bell Curve' topic, & I'm done.

Seems that poverty does indeed have an adverse effect on IQ:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ
“Environmental factors play a major role in determining IQ in extreme situations. Proper childhood nutrition appears critical for cognitive development; malnutrition can lower IQ. Other research indicates environmental factors such as prenatal exposure to toxins, duration of breastfeeding, and micronutrient deficiency can affect IQ. In the developed world, there are some family effects on the IQ of children, accounting for up to a quarter of the variance. However, by adulthood, this correlation disappears, so that the IQ of adults living in the prevailing conditions of the developed world may be more heritable."
So, if you're born well-off, you eat better. You eat better, you do better.
At the risk of being crude, if you're born born in shit...logical progression. (sorry)
& the exception proves the rule, is the old adage I think.

What does Patri's 1st Law of statistics say? Oh, yeah...
"Correlation implies causation when convenient; otherwise, there are confounding factors."
Or is it...?
"The First La