NoGodBlog.com

Suicide bombings are a nationalist resistance to occupation by a democratic regime, which is of a different religion and refuses to make concessions. This is why secular groups like PFLP, Fatah, LTTE, PKK, and some Lebanese groups have made use of them.

Religion does play a role, but it is less important than the nationalist aspect of the act.

Robert Pape's book Dying to Win explain this in much more detail.

Ok, hold me back here, cause this is a sore point with me!

There is the reality of Iraq, Afganistan, Lebanon, etc., etc., all of it caused by the evil of this administration and the actions of the Hypocrite-in-Chief, however, this asshole has the audacity to address the Roe v. Wade protestors yesterday and state, among other things:

President George W. Bush marked the 34th anniversary of the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion on Monday, telling thousands of abortion foes he shares their goal of seeing "the day when every child is welcomed in life and protected into law."

No doubt his goal is to see that every child is welcomed in life so that the parents can raise him/her and then another El Supremo Asshole can send them to be killed on the war du jour. Better yet, I'm sure the Muslims (with all the voodoo that they do) also have the same goals, yet THEIR children are being murdered en masse! How can he?

"We've all got to remember that a true culture of life cannot be built by changing laws alone. We've all got to work hard to change hearts," he said. "The sanctity of life is written in the life of all men and women. And so I think, go forth with confidence that a cause rooted in human dignity and appealing to the best instincts of our citizens cannot fail."

If only he could hear himself talk...but even HE doesn't believe his OWN words!!!

What a f****ing hypocrite!!!

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/01/22/america/NA-GEN-US-Bush-Abortion.php

~Ranting over - off to drink a beer or two or a six pack~



"God bless America but fuck the assholes that run it!"

amen darwin.

We atheists blame religion, they use/abuse it for their own selfish gains. By "they" I mean politicians and televangelists. Oh, and terrorists.

So...the difference between politicians and terrorists is that terrorists actually do what they say they're going to do?

Well, here we go again.

Robespierre's sadistic reign of terror was executed in the the name of secularism. And who can dismiss the secular communist government in North Korea?

Violence against humanity is innately human and is done in the names of both religion and secularism. ☺

Seeker agreed...

Seeker:

Communism is an alternative religion. Not really that good of an example, sorry.


“Religion is the human response to being alive and having to die.”

How about an athiest regime that caused the death of 7 million...?

Very few actually know of this genocide...

Ukraine Famine - 1932-1933 - 7,000,000 Deaths

http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/Ukraine_famine.htm

http://gi.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_stalin.html

Hatred for other humans is part of the fallen nature of mankind...as evidenced by the "bomb throwers" continued expression of hatred towards any and all theists...

darwinluvsu ...

Some would say atheism is an alternative religion. And to some atheists, that may be true.

The cause and effect scenario that "religion causes hate" is unjustified.

Religion plays no role in violent street muggings. Anyone care to blame the LA riots of '95 on religion? History is littered with wars of aggression that were motivated by greed, not gods.

☺

Seeker:

The cause and effect scenario that "religion causes hate" is unjustified.

Weeellll, I can go along w/some o' that: we inherit our feral side from evolutionary processes.
It does lend itself to violence a little too freely.
I'd say that religion is the tool hammered out from the inherent darkness of our nature.

Krystalline Apostate ...

I think you are right.

Argument number one

1 - There is no god, no spiritual paradigm of any kind.
2 - Therefore, everything is natural.
3 - Consequently religion, itself, must be a natural phenomenon.

It is within human nature, not the religious cloak, that the tendency to violence resides.

Argument number two

Humans are animals. Like all mammals we are genetically programmed with a propensity for violence. Eradicating religion will not erase the innate genetic program that drives us to defend our turf, fend off predators and compete for food.

Other animals resort to violence for survival. Our higher level of intelligence has heightened our capacity for violence beyond survival. Is there any other animal that kills for sport? Any other animal that kills for self-gratification?

Wow -- a thread in which phreedm sounds more rational than Peter Nuhn, who doesn't seem to understand what a fact is! I think the comments accompanying the photos are a good example of fundamentalist zealotry -- an embarrassment to atheism, in my view. Maybe some key concepts were unintentionally left out... but as I read it, the assertion that zealous worshipers always want to kill people who disagree with them is a load of bullshit I wouldn't have expected from someone associated with American Atheists.

Seeker:

Any other animal that kills for self-gratification?

Outside of a rabid animal, or a crazed 1? I'd heard the wildebeest does.

Consequently religion, itself, must be a natural phenomenon.

Ha-HA!
From the womb of evolution, sprang religion.

It is within human nature, not the religious cloak, that the tendency to violence resides.

Agreed.
But religion is the sword, the tool, Man has forged upon the anvil of his feral nature, dipped in blood.

Would the world be better off w/o religion? I'd like to think so, but that's a utopian dream, not a realistic one.

We need to improve ourselves. We can all be more than what we are.

Hey, Hoodlum, your blog link doesn't work, BTW.

JP
I agree.

I saw the pictures and read this line

Don't you just love the smell of burning religious fanatics in the morning?

and I thought of NYC on 9/11.

I was saddened and embarrassed by the post.

Fanatics may be behind the violence, but innocent people are burning and dying.

This is the kind of treatment of others that gives us a bad name Peter. We can do better.

Sorry Phreedm, but such a thing never occurred in the name of "atheism", nor would it ever.

It was the regime, not atheism, that did such a thing.

For you to think the lack of belief in a god caused something, you'd have to be pretty stoned or stupid.

Krystalline Apostate

But religion is the sword, the tool, Man has forged upon the anvil of his feral nature, dipped in blood.

Yep.

Then there are the Amish, the Quakers; the pacifist religions.

Also...

In Sunday School class recently, one of the members noted that Christianity is spreading in Iraq. In his mind that justifies the war.

Somehow I think Jesus would not considered military action as a legitimate means of evangelism.

Don't you just love the way some people define progress and democracy? If it isn't our money being burned then it's oil, fossil fuels, or each other. Next follows chronic sorry excuses and endless explanations about best of intentions for a better, more secure, and more democratic livable world. There just never seems an end to that unquenchable human spirit for more abuse, grief, self perpetuation, self righteousness, arrogance, and all served up with pointless endless sermons with some nationalistic twist to help it all go down.

Peter

I am deeply offended by your statement:

"Don't you just love the smell of burning religious fanatics in the morning?"

No I do not! Come on man that is just f'n
out-of-line. The atheists that I know are
compassionate and empathetical people. This
atheist demands an apology.

To paraphrase Steven Weinberg:

With or without religion good people will continue to do good things and bad people will continue to do bad things but for good people to do bad things requires religion.

seeker:

Then there are the Amish, the Quakers; the pacifist religions.

I rather like those folks: they tend to leave others be, walk the talk, & as I understand it, the Quakers view the bible as dead letters.

In Sunday School class recently, one of the members noted that Christianity is spreading in Iraq. In his mind that justifies the war.

Shoulda said, 'little mind'.
You're still doing the preacher thingamabob? Sunday School?

Comment from: Mushukyou

It was the regime, not atheism, that did such a thing.

Yes, it's the belief that there is no judgement that allows people to commit horrendous acts of violence...one must think deeper. I'm not saying the army marched in the name of atheism...but it was the foundational thinking of Stalin and his leaders that put a policy into place that allowed 7 million to die...some of the greatest crimes against humanity were caused by "secular" governments...

The argument being, it's the flaw in humanity that allow's one to commit suicide bomgings, wars and all other acts of violence against their fellow human being...while there are examples of wars that were advanced in the name of religion, religion by itself is not the cause of war...just as atheism by itself is not a cause for war...

For you to think the lack of belief in a god caused something, you'd have to be pretty stoned or stupid.

You were doing well until you needed to resort to a personal attack...any time one needs to lower themselves to this level during a debate, trys to mask their weak argument...

I was wondering if anyone would take me to task for that comment about the smell of burning religious fanatics in the morning. I was taking liberties with the line from a movie about a previous war, "Apocalypse Now".

The points about some religions don't advocate violence and war has more than religion as its main cause and that the communists were also merchants of death are all besides the point.

In every single news cast about the Middle East, it is repeated over and over again that this is sectarian violence. It seems to me that the religious in this country do not get the message that sectarian means religious.

Sorry for those who are offended by my crassness. What I can't figure out is why more people are not offended more by the crassness of the violence done in the name of religion. Oh yea, believing that religious will some day wake up and stop killing people of other religions is extremely improbable. But that doesn't make it any less responsible to continue to raise the issue.

[blockquote]You're still doing the preacher thingamabob? Sunday School? [/blockquote]

I'm no longer preaching (turned down two invitations in January), but still attend church. Seeing through the illusion makes a considerable difference.

Considering that "Christian" means "like Jesus" I often remind my Christian friends that some of the best Christians I've known are atheists.

I don't care to bash church people. Like everyone else, some are better than others. I'm just satisfied to be a realist. Is Is.

I forgot...

How does the blockquote work???

Ignore previous post

Wholescale violence perpetrated by one human group upon another can usually be attributed to "turf war". It cannot be denied that both secular and religious causes (read excuses) have been at the heart of these sickening wars over who gets to live where throughout history.

That said, I fail to find examples of secular causes rising any where near the levels of examples of religious causes in our history of warfare. Is there any secular example that even remotely parallels the atrocities of the Crusades? The Crusades, under orders from the Pope, had this singular goal: wipe Islam from the face of the earth and militarily impose Catholicism upon all of humanity.

I can think of no atheist today, including Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins, who would ever think it was acceptable to militarily impose atheism upon the world. Atheists prefer the method of persuasive rational argument via public dialogue, not war. We do not seek to force anyone into atheism. Our goal is to present humanity with irrefutable good reasons to reject religious belief systems, and then allow you to make the choice for yourself, based upon your own faculty for reason.

In the meantime, we will pull no punches when the opportunity arises to point out the hell that results from religious belief being translated into inhumane behavior.

I don't think religion per-se is a catalyst for violence so much as dogma is. Whether secular or religious, if your belief is not amenable argument or evidence then there are going to be problems.

Any other animal that kills for self-gratification?

Bunches and bunches. In fact, it's most often observed in mammals with higher brain function. Here's just a few species that have been observed killing for pleasure...

Orca
Bottlenose Dolphins
Lions
Wolves
Cape Buffalo
Elephants
Coyote
Chimpanzee

Humans are animals. Like all mammals we are genetically programmed with a propensity for violence. Eradicating religion will not erase the innate genetic program that drives us to defend our turf, fend off predators and compete for food.

Very true. Here is a great example...

When wolves were reintroduced into the GYE (Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem) there was a huge backlash from elk hunters who believed the wolves would reduce the population of elk in the GYE to such levels they (hunters) would no longer be allowed to hunt. The controversy continues to this day. When I'm in the area, I often see bumper stickers that say "Kill a wolf, save an elk" (which shows a complete lack of understanding of how the ecosystem works and how the wolves affect that ecosystem, in my opinion). This concept is essentially predator competition behavior. Wolves, for example, will kill coyote on sight — just as lions will kill leopards and cheetahs on sight. Killing your competition is a good way to help ensure you have enough food available for your pack, pride, family, etc.

Many of the hunters I know seem to operate from this same instinct; kill off the top predators in the region so there is more for us.

To get back to the subject... just as religion can be considered a tool in helping to keep our animal instincts under control, it can certainly also be a justification for indulging in the most violent of them.

I'm sure glad I can aviod the religion based destruction over there. Most of the destruction done by my tax dollars is due to incompetence and what seemed at the time to be good intentions .

I'd like to thank "seeker" for the "some of the best Christians I've known are atheists" comment. Unfortunatly my mind quickly jumps to the rhetorical problem of "Christians get credit for all good things that happen" I'm slowly getting over that. Thanks

True believers are in a league of their own when it comes to killing in the name of their god (who is the only true god)
Here is a brief dscription of deaths caused by all major conflicts of the
20th century, and includes a category of religious conflicts in both
the 20th century and earlier:

Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49
Algeria, 1992-
Baha'is, 1848-54
Bosnia, 1992-95
Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901
Christian Romans, 30-313 CE
Croatia, 1991-92
Early Christian doctrinal disputes
English Civil War, 1642-46
Holocaust, 1938-45
Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598
India, 1992-2002
India: Suttee & Thugs
Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947
Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979-
Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92
Jews, 1348
Jonestown, 1978
Lebanon
1860
1975-92
Martyrs, generally
Molucca Is., 1999-
Mongolia, 1937-39
Northern Ireland, 1974-98
Responsibility generally (Is religion responsible for more deaths than ...?)
Christian culpabiltiy
Russian pogroms:
1905-06
1917-22
St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572
Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE
Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38
Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91
Spanish Inquisition, 1478-1834
Taiping Rebellion, 1850-64
Thirty Years War, 1618-48
Tudor England
Vietnam, 1800s
Witch Hunts, 1400-1800
Xhosa, 1857
In addition, here are a few noteworthy conflicts where dissimilar
ethnic groups fought for primarily religious reasons:
Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE
Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948-
Al Qaeda, 1993-
Crusades, 1095-1291
Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609
Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s
approximately 809,215,732 DEATHS
throughout the entirety of the events chronicled.

Phreed-hem

(blockquote)Yes, it's the belief that there is no judgement that allows people to commit horrendous acts of violence(/blockquote)

Please, I'm on pins and needles. If the above statement is true, then please tell me what it is that 'allows' people of deep faith to commit horrendous acts of violence?

Gawd is good! All the time...(except, of course, when he's killing his own children in tsunamis, wars in his name, earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, etc. etc.)




"Religion divides; humanity unites."

I don't believe that Religion could possibly have any part in the violence we see in the Middle East.
The fact that it's one of the most violent places on earth as well as the birth place of three major religions, is merely a coincidence.

If the violence were due to Religion, the one true god would put a stop to it with a conflagration of some type; a flood or a quaking of the earth, right?

Please, I'm on pins and needles. If the above statement is true, then please tell me what it is that 'allows' people of deep faith to commit horrendous acts of violence?

Doesn't the devil make them do it? : ) He's very tricky, you know.

Phreedm-

The argument being, it's the flaw in humanity that allow's one to commit suicide bomgings, wars and all other acts of violence against their fellow human being...while there are examples of wars that were advanced in the name of religion, religion by itself is not the cause of war...just as atheism by itself is not a cause for war...

Are you arguing that any belief system that does not include retributive ethics is a flaw in humanity? Because it sure sounds that way. If I understand your sentiment clearly, you consider even other religions that lack this retributive function as flawed? (You did mention suicide bombers) Just want to make sure I have it right. It almost sounds as if you are making an humanistic argument justifying retributive ontology and epistemology (insert Christianity here).

-I wasn't going to post on this thread by the way, as I agree that it is not necessarily sound or in good taste, but of course, I am sucked in.-

DVan,

Doesn't the devil make them do it? : ) He's very tricky, you know.

Doh! But of course. I should have known.

JONBOY:
Hey, you left out the Goan Inquisition:
http://biblioblography.blogspot.com/2006/12/thou-shalt-have-no-other-gods-before.html

This is more ridiculous than it is actually maddening, but...

http://tinyurl.com/29ewf8

Krystalline Apostate

Silly Me!!!Perhaps Predy would like a list of the killings his own "God of Love" condoned in the bible.

There's just no way to count how many God managed to drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill?
Sometimes the Bible tells us exactly how many were killed by God. Here's a list of those that I can find.

Testament Number Killed Cummulative Total
Lot's wife for looking back Gen.19:26, BT 1 1
Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord" Gen.38:7, BT 1 2
Onan for spilling his seed Gen.38:10, BT 1 3
For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf Ex.32:27-28, 35, BT 3000 3003
Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord Lev.10:1-3, Num.3:4, 26:61, BT 2 3005
A blasphemer Lev.24:10-23, BT 1 3006
A man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath Num.15:32-36, BT 1 3007
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) Num.16:27, BT 12+ 3019+
Burned to death for offering incense Num.16:35, 26:10, BT 250 3269+
For complaining Num.16:49, BT 14,700 17,969+
For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" Num.25:9, BT 24,000 41,969+
Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) Num.31:1-35, BT 90,000+ 131,969+
God tells Joshua to stoned to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing. Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26, BT 5+ 131,974+
God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone). Joshua 8:1-25, BT 12,000 143,974+
Joshua kills 5 kings and hangs their dead bodies on trees Joshua 10:24-26, BT 5 143,979+
God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites Judges 1:4, BT 10,000 153,979+
Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king's belly Jg.3:15-22, BT 1 153,980+
God delivered Moabites Jg.3:28-29, BT 10,000 163,980+
God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other. Jg.7:2-22, 8:10, BT 120,000 283,980+
The Spirit of the Lord comes on Samson Jg.14:19, BT 30 284,010+
The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on Samson Jg.15:14-15, BT 1000 285,010+
Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism Jg.16:27-30, BT 3000 288,010+
"The Lord smote Benjamin" Jg.20:35-37, BT 25,100 313,110+
More Benjamites Jg.20:44-46 25,000 338,110+
For looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam.6:19 50,070 388,180+
God delivered Philistines 1 Sam.14:12 20 388,200+
Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death 1 Sam.15:32-33 1 388,201+
"The Lord smote Nabal." 1 Sam.25:38 1 388,202+
Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam.6:6-7, 1 Chr.13:9-10 1 388,203+
David and Bathsheba's baby boy 2 Sam.12:14-18 1 388,204+
Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord 2 Sam.21:6-9 7 388,211+
From plague as punishment for David's census (men only; probably 200,000 if including women and children) 2 Sam.24:13, 1 Chr.21:7 70,000+ 458,211+
A prophet for believing another prophet's lie 1 Kg.13:1-24 1 458,212+
God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites' hands 1 Kg.20:28-29 100,000 558,212+
God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers 1 Kg.20:30 27,000 585,212+
God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36 1 585,213+
Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god. 2 Kg.1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9 1 585,214+
Burned to death by God 2 Kg.1:9-12 102 585,316+
God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24 42 585,348+
Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah 2 Kg.7:17-20 1 585,349+
Jezebel 2 Kg.9:33-37 1 585,360+
God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners 2 Kg.17:25-26 3+ 585,363+
Sleeping Assyrian soldiers 2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36 185,000 770,363+
Saul 1 Chr.10:14 1 770,364+
God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah 2 Chr.13:15-17 500,000 1,270,364+
Jeroboam 2 Chr.13:20 1 1,270,365+
"The Lord smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chr.14:9-14 1,000,000 2,270,365+
God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out 2 Chr.21:14-19 1 2,270,366+
Ezekiel's wife Ezek.24:15-18 1 2,270,367+
Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:1-10 2 2,270,369+
Herod Acts 12:23, BT 1 Total 2,270,369+
Plus his own son

elliejay:
Hey, thanks for the 'cruise missle'. I've slapped something together:
http://biblioblography.blogspot.com/2007/01/hallelujah-its-second-comingor-first.html

JONBOY:
Holy crap, is it all right if I DON'T commit all that to memory? Wheredja get that list from?

Krystalline Apostate

I had it in some notes that I took from a web site several years ago.
I think it may be from Dennis McKinsey's Biblical Errancy: http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/index.html but I'm not sure.

JONBOY:
Oh yeah: I'm familiar w/McKinsey.
Didn't he get criticized by Lowder or Till? It's been a while.

jonboy what a list add to it the est.110 million killed by the reds its a wonder anyone has any faith anymore.
off-topic did you guys see sen.hagel go off on the senate foregin relations committee.seems like a real standup kind of guy.

Quoting Seeker's comment.

3 - Consequently religion, itself, must be a natural phenomenon.

The brain has a natural tendency to want to fill in gaps in knowledge, in other words, to piece things together or explain what is being observed. In that sense religion could be said to be naturally occurring, simply because the brain is looking for some explanation. The basis for religion is nothing more than assigning the unknown to the action of a deity but, that is not a genetic thing because there are a lot of humans that don't assign the unknown to a deity, it is a society thing not genetics. Humans, like most animals are not simply robots obeying their genetic codes.

It is within human nature, not the religious cloak, that the tendency to violence resides.

Well, the United States ranks high in religion and in violence. Reacting to a trespass with violence is not a conditional reflex, but rather a decision made within the brain.

Humans are animals. Like all mammals we are genetically programmed with a propensity for violence.

There are many mammals that are not violent and many humans that are not violent.

Eradicating religion will not erase the innate genetic program that drives us to defend our turf, fend off predators and compete for food.

True, but it would stop the killings for a god that isn't there. Changing our social structure to not reward violence would help with the rest. I think there is more propensity for violence that is passed through social norms than is caused by an innate genetic program.

Other animals resort to violence for survival. Our higher level of intelligence has heightened our capacity for violence beyond survival. Is there any other animal that kills for sport? Any other animal that kills for self-gratification?

Domesticated cats certainly will kill for reasons other then food or survival, Krystalline Apostate mentioned wildebeests. Really? Killing for what seems like no reason happens occasionally in the non-human world but, it is difficult to know for sure because we look at it from a human perspective.

JONBOY, you could include murders commited by mormons for their god. And bush said that his god told him to invade Iraq.

rna2dna:

Krystalline Apostate mentioned wildebeests. Really?

Count that as hearsay, as I can't recall where I got that. Maybe it was the Cape Buffalo.

Dvan:
Orcas & dolphins? That's a new 1 on me. Got link?
I know that dolphins indulge in a lot of behavior we do (gang rape, homosexuality, interspecies 'bes_tiality', etc), but kill for the fun of it?

Peter

"Sorry for those who are offended by my crassness. What I can't figure out is why more people are not offended more by the crassness of the violence done in the name of religion."

Thank you for acknowledging the crassness of your statements. We atheists are usually
supremely offended by the violence potentiated by religion. Indeed such violence by governments or potential governments usually requires religion
and the religious. But finding satisfaction in the pain of others, even if they bring it upon themselves, is not for me.

"And bush said that his god told him to invade Iraq."

Sounds like a Twilight Zone episode ...
a talkin pool of bubbling crude commanding the man-boy president to do its bidding.

rna2dna:

Reacting to a trespass with violence is not a conditional reflex, but rather a decision made within the brain.

I'll have to disagree w/that. We're fiercely territorial creatures, whether it's about mating or hunting grounds.

Domesticated cats certainly will kill for reasons other then food or survival

D'oh! Forgot that 1.

I'm sure the "bomb thower" believes everything he reads...kind of like Alex...I wonder how many other believe the lies reported about the war on Iraq...?

The Sunni mosques that as Hussein claimed and AP reported as "destroyed," "torched" and "burned and [blown] up" are all still standing

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01212007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/destroyed___not_opedcolumnists_michelle_malkin.htm?page=0

I wonder how many other lies about life some atheists have bought into...?

Zac Hunter

How many time's has it been posted on this site that "religion" is the cause of violence? It's the fallen state of man that allows him to kill without regard. We can list many examples from both believers and non-believers...

Comment from: Celebrant Prince

Is there any secular example that even remotely parallels the atrocities of the Crusades? The Crusades, under orders from the Pope, had this singular goal: wipe Islam from the face of the earth and militarily impose Catholicism upon all of humanity.

First of all learn your history. The Crusades were not launched to "impose Catholisim" upon all of humanity. It was launched for survival as Islam was knocking on the door of Europe. As today, Islam had declared war on the west.

Second. I believe I've pointed out only one example of how communism (a god free government) has killed millions to "impose" communism on the masses.

I can think of no atheist today, including Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins, who would ever think it was acceptable to militarily impose atheism upon the world. Atheists prefer the method of persuasive rational argument via public dialogue, not war. We do not seek to force anyone into atheism.

Dawkins is a very militant atheist. His beliefs are very similar to the foundation of communism. Children are free (the states responsibility, not the parents). Whoever controls the state controls the children. History has shown where this idea leads. Yes. Force....

When atheists finally begin to gain some power, what then? Here is where Dawkins' analogy breaks down. Gay politics is strictly civil rights: Live and let live. But the atheist movement, by his lights, has no choice but to aggressively spread the good news. Evangelism is a moral imperative. Dawkins does not merely disagree with religious myths. He disagrees with tolerating them, with cooperating in their colonization of the brains of innocent tykes. "How much do we regard children as being the property of their parents?" Dawkins asks. "It's one thing to say people should be free to believe whatever they like, but should they be free to impose their beliefs on their children? Is there something to be said for society stepping in? What about bringing up children to believe manifest falsehoods?"

What goes into the minds of the youth today becomes the fabric of society tomorrow...

First of all learn your history. The Crusades were not launched to "impose Catholisim" upon all of humanity. It was launched for survival as Islam was knocking on the door of Europe. As today, Islam had declared war on the west.

All I can say is wow. You really believe both of those statements? Phreedm, you are a scary person.

Comment from: spanders

All I can say is wow. You really believe both of those statements? Phreedm, you are a scary person.

Spanders...really? I didn't know the Truth scared you so much...

Crusades - military expeditions, beginning in the late 11th century, that were organized by Western Christians in response to centuries of Muslim wars of expansion.
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9110241/Crusades

If we don't learn the mistakes
of history, we are doomed to repeat them...

Do you deny the fact that radical Islam has declared war against the West today?

**** OFF TOPIC ****

One more example of tolerance of atheists that is sure to help their low poll numbers...

Jacksonville Mayor John Peyton defended on Tuesday the city's Day of Faith anti-violence rally held in August, even though it means the city must pay an atheist group $5,000 in attorneys fees and avoid holding nonsecular events in the future.

In exchange for the city's actions, Kagin said the atheist group dropped the part of its lawsuit demanding Jacksonville repay taxpayers the $101,000 the city spent to stage the Day of Prayer. The city also agreed to pay the cost of mediation, an amount that is still to be determined, Kagin and Laquidara said.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/012407/met_7528080.shtml

"an amount that is still to be determined"...as I always say...follow the money.
And you thought AA stayed afloat with membership dues...

My comment:

Reacting to a trespass with violence is not a conditional reflex, but rather a decision made within the brain.

Krystalline Apostate's genetically required response:

I'll have to disagree w/that. We're fiercely territorial creatures, whether it's about mating or hunting grounds.

Just kidding about the "genetically required" :-)

The acknowledgement of the trespass may have genetic roots, the decision to react with violence, I would think, is unlikely to be genetic. Consider a society based on multiple sexual partners (polygamy as an example). Defending hunting grounds is also a decision made by the brain and likely heavily influenced by social pressure. The desire to conform to group pressure or social norms may be genetic but the decision to react with violence is a choice made by the individual or the social structure.

Phreed-hem

It's the fallen state of man that allows him to kill without regard.

Then please tell me what it is that would cause a man to send 150,000 plus troops, half way around the world, and overthrow a country that had not attacked us, had not threatened to attack us, and was not a threat to us, killing hundreds of thousands of them (and us) in the process?

NO! SERIOUSLY! What the fuck makes it okay for us to kill all those Iraqis when they were never a threat to us? Am I supposed to believe that we are to go invade and overthrow the government of every country that has at least 19 males residing within their borders that hate America and have the ability to purchase one way tickets to the US?

Shock and Awe? I'd love to be a fly on the wall when St. Peter asks Rummy, Dummy and Scummy about that one.

What's so tragic is that these people honestly believe in heaven. What's more; they think they are going there when they die. What a shame. What a BLOODY shame.

P.S.

First of all learn your history. The Crusades were not launched to "impose Catholisim" upon all of humanity. It was launched for survival as Islam was knocking on the door of Europe. As today, Islam had declared war on the west.

Correct me if I am wrong, but back then, just as today, WE marched OUR armies from the west, to the middle-east, to wage war on THEM, THERE.

You make it sound like The Crusades were fought in Hungary, or Romania. Knocking on Europe's door?!?

Go tell it to a Native American and see if he gives a *&%$#!

phreedm, thanks for posting the court decision in favor of separation of religion and government. Do you realize that the decision was not in favor of theocracy?

Ren:

"Am I supposed to believe that we are to go invade and overthrow the government of every country that has at least 19 males residing within their borders that hate America and have the ability to purchase one way tickets to the US?"

Only if that country has oil! If it doesn't, in the alternative, it must have other precious natural resources to plunder or a key geographical location which will make it possible to invade other countries with oil or other precious natural resources to plunder.



"Sure you can trust the government. Ask an Indian!"

Someone did an anagram the other day.

Using RELIGION, one can make an anagram and get OIL REIGN.

:/

Phreedm:

Apparently, you missed the part where the City spent $101,000 of taxpayers' money to stage a voodoo parade. How hypocritical and blind can you be?

And you thought churches stayed afloat with membership dues...




"When the darkness seems a little scary, don’t forget – the moon is always there to guide your way."

Phreed-hem
Do you deny the fact that radical Islam has declared war against the West today?

I categorically deny the above statement!

Nobody has attacked Switzerland.

Last time I checked, South America is in the west, and it is strongly Roman Catholic. Yet, some countries, like Venezuala under the guidance of Hugo Chavez, are cozying up to 'terrorists' like Ahmadinejad in Iran.

How can you explain this if 'Islam' has declared war on 'The West'?

The fact is, certain entities in the west are currently under attack by elements that were primarily Islamic Fundamentalists, because we have been so deeply involved in their internal affairs for a very long time. Now that we are an occupier in Iraq, more mainstream muslims of both Sunni and Shia factions support the war with the west.

Maybe, just maybe, we should ask ourselves why it is that they want to kill us, and then possibly consider not doing that anymore?!? We might find out that they don't want to kill us 'cause of our freedoms, after all. If we stop talking with our bombs for long enough and just listen for a change, we might find out they have a legitimate gripe.

Before you roll your eyes, you have to ask yourself how you would feel if China had overthrown our gov't. 30 yrs ago, and the current administration was just a Bejing Puppet as were the last 6, as will be the next ??? I don't know. How many more? How many more Chinese Puppet Governments before you and your friends act? Before you do your 'Patriotic Duty' and throw off the shackles? Or will you leave that for your nephew as well?

I've heard the President say it himself, a number of times. People everywhere want 'freedom' and 'liberty'. Why should we expect the people of the Middle-East to want any less? Why is it so hard to understand that 'freedom' means freedom from meddling by the US?

Karen,
Hey, I get it. This is easy. Okay, so I know it's a stretch, but if you say it like you've been drinking, you'll get it.

I Re' Lo' Gin!

Amen. Somebody pass the blood of Christ.

Comment from: Ren [Member]

Then please tell me what it is that would cause a man to send 150,000 plus troops, half way around the world, and overthrow a country that had not attacked us, had not threatened to attack us, and was not a threat to us, killing hundreds of thousands of them (and us) in the process?

NO! SERIOUSLY! What the fuck makes it okay for us to kill all those Iraqis when they were never a threat to us?

Ren...you're kidding right? Sheesh...exactly how much of your own research have you done?

The answers to your questions are out there...just don't let your hatred towards Bush cloud your judgement....

Comment from: rna2dna

phreedm, thanks for posting the court decision in favor of separation of religion and government

Hey...you're welcome.

Do you realize that the decision was not in favor of theocracy?

Hmmm...really? Wow...how'd I miss that...?

Ah...try rereading my post. Obviously you've missed my point.

Which is more important...for the world to accept atheists as a "tolerant" group capable of governing? Or to constantly impose their own beliefs upon a nation that is roughly 90 per cent religious?

You're under the misguided impression that groups like American Atheists and the ACLU are out their fighting for your rights...haha...it's a racket...a business...a way of sucking at the teat of the American taxpayer...as long as you let groups like AA define you, you're never going to make cultural advancements...

You want America to accept you. You whine when polls come out stating how little most of America trust atheists. You whine when poll numbers are so low for atheists. You whine when most Americans say they wouldn't vote for an atheist...come to think of it...all I hear is whinning...

your choice...perception is everything. As long as outsiders keep sticking their noses in local business, there is no fear of atheism making it's way into the state or national legislature...

phreedm
You're so cynical!
But it's kind of you to be so concerned about our status.
Just think of us as The Little Engine that Could.

I can because I think...
I can because I think...
I CAN because I think...

Karen:
using PAT ROBERTSON you can gat the anagrams porn abettors
or pro bean trots

Phreed, Phreed, Phreed...

You're under the misguided impression that groups like Catholic Church and Focus on Family are out their fighting for your rights...haha...it's a racket...a business...a way of sucking at the teat of the American taxpayer...as long as you let groups like them define you, you're never going to make cultural advancements...

Tit.
Tat.

phreedm

your choice...perception is everything.

Strange claim for a self proclaimed xian to make. Personally I prefer openness and honesty. But then I don't reagard myself as a hypocite who'd be willing to sacrifice their honesty on the alter of a religiously agreeable perception.

Phreedm-

I didn't say religion was the cause of violence. I wasn't even implying that. I asked you, pretty explicitly, if you were arguing that belief in retributive ontology was necessary for functional ethics. That is, does a person need to believe they face damnation in order to be a good person? Please at least read my posts if you are going to reply to me. I would rather be ignored than drawn in to your own false dichotomy.

Did you just assume that because I questioned your argument I was just condemning your opinion and that you could throw your blanket anti-atheist rhetoric as an all purpose defense? You spend an awful lot of time complaining that atheists are not as critical and rational as we purport to be, but those who live in glass houses...

Phreed-hem,

Ren...you're kidding right? Sheesh...exactly how much of your own research have you done?

Having spent time in the Middle-East and being a war veteran from the first Gulf War, never mind the stint in the DIV HQ 3 shop when we were in charge of running "Operation Intrinsic Action" out of Kuwait and directed at Saddam, I'll have you know I have stayed on top of things as they happened over the course of the last two decades.

When was the first time you heard the name Usama bin Laden? I knew who he was shortly after the bombing of Khobar Towers in Daharan, KSA back in '96?

What were you doing while I was conducting roaming patrols around my overseas base, after the place was locked down tight, right after the Embassys were bombed in Kenya and Tanzaniya in '98?

What were you doing the winter of '95/'96 when I was in Port Au Prince, Haiti?

Where were you the winter of '97/'98 when I was roaming around the countryside of the Former Yugoslav Republic?

Where were you in the spring of '99 when I was training for duty in Kosovo, when I stood up and said I couldn't be a tool for the empire any longer?

Now, my wife is still in the military and has endured one tour to the Middle-East. Undoubtedly, she will end up over there again, at least once, and that is if she is lucky.

If you want to get upset over the loss of life, maybe you should put aside 9-11 for just a moment and imagine what it must have been like for the 500,000 (yes, that's half a million) Iraqis that died in the 4 years immediatly after the first Gulf War, as a direct result of the sanctions placed on them by us. And lest you believe they all strapped explosives to themselves and blew up to satiate Allah, I'll have you know that they died from dysentery. That's a fancy way of saying they shit themselves to death because they were drinking tainted water(remember all the bombing?) and had no access to otherwise readily available antibiotics. Ever wonder why the food and medicine for oil venture got started in the first place?

I heard Bush say the other day that we will not let the 'terrorists' push us out of the Middle-East. My question is this: What fucking right do we have to be there in the first place? Could THAT be why they hate us and want to kill us?

How much research have I actually done? No, MF, I lived it. How much research have YOU actually done?

P.S. Faux News doesn't count.

Hi Bones
How's your BF doing?
Holding steady, I hope.

Phreed-hem,

You want America to accept you. You whine when polls come out stating how little most of America trust atheists. You whine when poll numbers are so low for atheists. You whine when most Americans say they wouldn't vote for an atheist...come to think of it...all I hear is whinning...

Oh puh-leeeeez. Your pu$$y would be in flames if the tables were turned.

*My apologies to those of you that actually have vaginas.

Hehheh, Ren

You reminded me of the refrigerator magnet I gave my friend at xmas. It said:

Who set fire to the string on your tampon?

Karen,
yeah, I've cut back on the med's. Is it that obvious? LMAO

Ren
LOL.
I didn't mean it that way...
Your "flaming pus-sy" remark combined with the vagina apology made my mind pinball to the magnet quote, is all.

I'm with you in all you said. Go git 'im! ;-)

Karen,

Thanks.

This probably falls into the 'more than you need to know' category, but I am not ashamed of the cards I have been dealt. I just have to play them.

I was speaking with my doc at the VA a while back, and I was telling him how disturbed I was, watching my country 'gleefully' go to war as though it were a college football game.

I could go on at length as to why it might bother me, you know, starting a needless war and all, but I think the reasons are now pretty self evident. Never in my life have I wanted so much to shout at the top of my lungs, "I told you so", but it would be for naught.

Anyhow, I told my doctor that if only he could figure out a way to put everyone else on med's, then I would be able to stop taking mine. He gave a good belly laugh and smiled and said, "Perhaps you're on to something". I really like him. I wonder if he knows I was being serious?

hi karen (and other out there). I've been lurking around the blog lately, and not really posting much.

BF doing ok, i guess. he's been in and out of hospitals, but he's decided that he's had enough. Hospice care (at home) started this week. He's home, comfy, and right now he's quite enjoying the dope he's on! good stuff, apparently. He's offered to share, but I think I'm better off with a clear head at the moment.

Now it's a matter of enjoying, or trying to enjoy, what time is left. We're having a "Bob day" this weekend - friends and family coming by to laugh & cry.

I have my days, but mostly I'm doing ok.

phreedom;
What "beliefs" exactly are atheists "imposing" on the rest of the population? That we have the right to examine the inconsistencies of religion? That our taxes should not be spent on propagating religion?
And what exactly did 9-11 have to do with Iraq? NOTHING!
Bushco invaded in order to steal (that is the right word) their OIL.
It is also the reason why this administration has no real plan to reinforce their military. If they are prevented from being able to defend their country and resources, the U.S. corporations have free rein to do whatever they please (to the point that they already have their own private mercenary forces in place).
I was raised in Europe, the Middle East (including Saudi and Lebanon), and Africa. I have seen first hand what America has done in Africa and have also seen how xtians sidle up to U.S. policies there as it legitimizes what they are doing.

"I contend we are both atheists. I merely worship one less god than you. When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Unfortunately, I don't remember the man I'm quoting offhand other than he was an historian (twentieth century?). If one of you readers happen to remember, please feel free to post it. Otherwise, stay tuned as I will look it up.

Here's one that I would like to see xtians ACTUALLY endorse:
WAGE PEACE

Ren
Putting everyone else on meds is an excellent idea. Maybe then, I could come off mine as well. If we quit spending money on troops and bombs, we could afford to medicate everyone. Let someone else run the asylum for a while. Things could calm down with someone with PTSD in charge. We don't like chaos.

Your doc probably doesn't think you're serious; just that it's your way of dealing. I have to say to my therapist, "No, I'm serious" in a very deadpan way, before she gets it sometimes.

Never in my life have I wanted so much to shout at the top of my lungs, "I told you so", but it would be for naught.

How deeply frustrating for you. I'm so sorry. Being right about it is probably little comfort when there are still people dying every day in this useless situation. I know I feel without voice about it, and I have not ever been in the service. So to have been there, and done that, and seen the futility of it, and try to speak up and convey that message to no avail must be debilitating.

Keep in mind that you did your job, with honor, and now you must live the rest of your life with reason.

Off topic, but related:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/R/RAY_GUN?SITE=CODEN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

MILITARY SHOWS OFF NEW "RAY-GUN"

MOODY AIR FORCE BASE, Ga. (AP) -- The military calls its new weapon an "active denial system," but that's an understatement. It's a ray gun that shoots a beam that makes people feel as if they are about to catch fire.

Apart from causing that terrifying sensation, the technology is supposed to be harmless - a non-lethal way to get enemies to drop their weapons.
....

ACTIVE DENIAL SYSTEM? Denial of what? THE PAIN?!

Soon we will be firing radiation at potential rioters. Is anyone else disturbed by this?

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ~ Historian Stephen Henry Roberts 1901-71

Karen,

So to have been there, and done that, and seen the futility of it, and try to speak up and convey that message to no avail must be debilitating.

I would compare it to slamming your head against a brick wall.

Keep in mind that you did your job, with honor, and now you must live the rest of your life with reason.

I should write that down and post it somewhere as my mission statement. As simple as it sounds, living is the hardest thing I do every day.

We are at the dawning of the 21st century and an overwhelming majority of Homo Sapiens believe in a magic sky daddy of some form. It's enough to drive any rational person nuts.

Thank you JONBOY for that.
As I have limited access to the internet, it would have been a while before I could have found and posted. Usually, by the time I have been able to get back, the thread would be (in effect) defunct.
There have been a couple of times when I have asked a question of phreedm and have been ignored and have wondered whether it was because my Q. was the last post, or because he/she didn't have an answer.

Ren

As simple as it sounds, living is the hardest thing I do every day.

I've been there. I understand.

For a long time, I thought there wouldn't be any days when I wouldn't have to consciously make the choice to stay alive. It seemed to take forever, and cost me my marriage, but it's better now. Not cured, but better.

If I could get here, you can.
If you ever need someone, I'm at
kagee630@earthlink.net.

Karen,

If you ever need someone, I'm at...

Wilco, and thanks a bunch. Now I need to run and pick up my daughter from school. Normally she walks home with her brother, but he is home sick today and I would rather she not walk home alone, although I am sure she would be perfectly fine. She just turned 7 in December.

666

Phreedm has a bad habit in not answering hard questions,particulaly
when it comes to the bible.
I have "called him out" on several occasions,so I'm sure he will treat you the same.

JONBOY,
I don't mean to speak for Phreed-hem, and I certainly don't mean to defend him, but I can only imagine he becomes overwhelmed at the barrage and finds it (seemingly) impossible to answer all the acusations. So he puts his tail between his legs and slinks off to rattle our cage again some other day.

I find it hard to have any sympathy for him, as he brings it on himself.

With FSM as my witness, I have never posted on a Christian or any other religion's message board. I have no business going there outside of anthropological reasons. Speaking up would be like a National Geographic film crew intervening and stopping a lioness from killing an antelope. It might get applause from the audience, but it just ain't natural.

Newsbulletin (sorta on/off topic):
The emasculate conception has brought forth 5 out of 7 baby Komodo dragons.
& guess what? There IS an allegorical connection to the wholly bibble!
http://biblioblography.blogspot.com/2007/01/allegories-gone-wild-second-coming.html

phreedm says:

Hmmm...really? Wow...how'd I miss that...?

I don't know but, have you tried knocking at the door to your mind, in an attempt to find out if any one is there?

Which is more important...for the world to accept atheists as a "tolerant" group capable of governing? Or to constantly impose their own beliefs upon a nation that is roughly 90 per cent religious?

Well, the first question wants an answer concerning the world and the second question wants an answer concerning the nation. It is the christians that are trying to "govern" the world not the atheists, so that question is meaningless with regard to atheists. The second question assumes that atheists want everyone to admit that there is no god, that is not what atheists want. It is the christians trying to force their fantasy on to everyone else that is the problem. phreedm, I think you are so accustom to pushing your belief on others that you even frame others in your own image.

come to think of it...all I hear is whinning...

Which christian fantasy personage are you? Did you replace a dead one?

local business

It is government business that we are concerned with and government was the topic of the fine levied against the christians.

I'm sorry phreedm but you will be responsible for the burning of more bible pages for the sin of deceptive offensive comments. (I don't mind it is cold here, the fire will warm me.)

Here are other examples of that old time religion. But this doesn't get shown on U.S. Television.

http://www.telrumeidaproject.org/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1NZGI02WkI&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhlw7WK8gzo

ren thanks for your service to our country.
bones i'm sorry to hear about your bf.
phreedm was right about the crusades being a counterattack to muslim conquest.
what is going to happen if the troop surge doesn't work there doesn't seem to be a plan b.