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Post details: Proving it false; proving them liars

05/11/07

03:56:49 pm, Categories: Announcements [A], 239 words

Proving it false; proving them liars

From Burton Wolfe...

Luigi Cascioli, the Italian atheist who has been suing the Roman Catholic Church for defrauding the public by claiming that Yeshua mashia/Joshua the messiah/Jesus Christ actually existed, has announced over the internet that on May 16, 2007, in Venice, there will be a "public demonstration" of proof that the purported "son of God" and "messiah" of "Christianity" is a fictitious character. "Jesus never existed" is the watchword for the "demonstration," also billed as a "conference." It will take place on the square of Scoletta dei Calegheri (Confraternity of the Cobbler). It is sponsored by the Italian Union of Rationalist Atheists and Agnostics (UAAR).
The demonstration or conference is an adjunct to Cascioli's persistent attempts, in defiance of obstacles he has faced, to obtain a court trial in which the Roman Catholic Church, in order to evade a claim of fraud, would be obligated to prove that "Jesus" actually existed. His litigations in Rome were dismissed without such a trial. He now has an action entitled Cascioli vs. Italy before the European Court of Human Rights in Strasburg. [In English translations of the name as it appears in Italian in Cascioli's announcement, that tribunal emerges as the "Court of the Rights of Man" - but unless I am mistaken, and I do not think that I am, the different names refer to one and the same international court which is recognized by 41 nations.]

http://luigicascioli.it/cascioli_inglese/

21 comments

Comments:

Comment from: TXatheist [Member] · http://txatheist.blogspot.com

I'm wondering if there are any atheists that are pretty sure Jesus Christ was a real man who was put on a cross/stake and died. Anyone?

05/11/07 @ 16:15

Comment from: karen [Member]

I hope Cascioli is better at proving christ as false than Kirk Cameron and friend were at "scientifically' proving god was true.

Should be interesting, but I can't fathom how he can do it but to show there is no evidence for it. Which we know isn't accepted by the other side.

TXatheist
There may have been a man named Jesus who was crucified, but I'm not certain of it. I am certain that he would have been simply a man, however.

05/11/07 @ 16:44

Comment from: diane [Member]

I'm suspicious why the lawsuit isn't about the fraud of god. It sounds like he basically accepts there is a god, just that this god didn't have a son. Umm...the jewish religion already covers that one. And the church will only present the bible as proof anyway, and it will probably be accepted as valid "evidence".

05/11/07 @ 17:43

Comment from: MerryAtheist [Member] · http://www.merryatheist.net

I'm willing to accept the idea of the existence of a man who caused religious and/or political problems and was put to death, either by crucifixion or stoning. Whether his name was Yeshu ben Stada, Yeshu ben Pantera, or Yeshu ben Yosef, or something else, who cares? The point is that he's still dead.

Also, I have my doubts as to the usefulness of trying to prove or disprove religious dogma in a court of law. Trials are not necessarily about truth (OJ Simpson anyone?).

05/11/07 @ 17:46

Comment from: phreedm [Member]

Uh oh...there goes the neighborhood...

DNC chair Dean says party needs to invite young evangelical Christians

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/10/BAGD4POMP26.DTL

And again...

The Texas Legislature is swimming upstream in a cultural climate that frequently denigrates the mention of "God" in public, voting to add the words "under God" to the Texas state pledge.

The 124-12 vote sent the proposal sponsored by Rep. Debbie Riddle, R-Tomball, to the state Senate, where supporters say it isn't expected to have significant opposition.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55597

Now what was that Dave was saying about how the "times they are a changing..."?

05/11/07 @ 18:18

Comment from: Phreedm Is A Dumbass [Member]

Phreedm, Howard Dean and the DNC is irrelevent to this topic.

God bless and go fuck yourself

05/11/07 @ 18:45

Comment from: Tuen [Member]

If Jesus existed it was as a normal human being.

If Mormon Joe Smith had revealed his fairytale 2000 years ago, the distorting, dogmatic stew of time would also have elevated him to divinity.

Eventually, theistic parochialism will deify Elvis......actually, it already has for some.

There's a certain element of humanity who will always need an imaginary wet nurse.

05/11/07 @ 18:46

Comment from: alexatheist [Member]

The movie "The god Who Wasn't There" makes a very compelling claim that a historical jesus proabably didn't exist. However even if jesus did exist he was just a man and no matter if he believed in his own divinity or convinced others of it doesn't change the fact that he was still just a man. David Koresh, Jim Jones, and lots of other people also thought they were god and convinced a lot of other people of it as well but it didn't make it so.
I hope Mr Cascioli prevails!

05/11/07 @ 19:07

Comment from: evilatheistconquerer [Member]

TX,
There was a man named Jesus who actually existed. A poor Mexican kid who had a wife and child. He wanted to move his family to the U.S. to find a better life, so he joined the U.S. military to fight in Iraq. They promised citizenship for his family in return. So he goes to Iraq and dies, never to see his kid grow up. So AFTER he dies, the government finally gives his wife and kid citizenship, but no husband/father.
So I guess you could call him a savior. He died for the sins of our government. He died to get a better life for his family. Sounds a lot more noble than the fictitious Jesus figure to me. (All true by the way.)

05/11/07 @ 19:11

Comment from: evilatheistconquerer [Member]

Tuen,
Don't you dare talk bad about Elvis! He'll come back to earth on his decked out spaceship and blast you with peanut butter and banana sandwiches you heathen!

05/11/07 @ 19:14

Comment from: Apple_Christmas [Member]

Weren't there lots of alleged messiahs who were persecuted around that time? It wouldn't surprise me if one or more of those were executed on a cross, and through some quirk of history, his cult of personality grew into Christianity as we know it now.

But really, I don't know whether "Jesus" existed or not. My atheism certainly doesn't depend on that question. Even if he did, there's no reason to by into the story.

05/11/07 @ 19:28

Comment from: Tuen [Member]

"times they are a changing..."?

During the Cold War, Christians myopically and opportunistically utilized Communism to demonize atheism. Today, the more primal, divisive idiocy of religious sectarianism and nationalism are finally being recognized for what they are.

Of course, times are changing. But will they change enough?

05/11/07 @ 19:30

Comment from: Barbiebrains [Member]

Evilatheist,
Jesus was a poor Mexican kid sent to Iraq...I see this all the time and it is revolting. When I became a citizen (I'm Mexican,btw), a Mexican woman who could not speak a word of English was given citizenship because her 22 year old son died in Iraq. They paraded her on the stage with a picture of her dead son...The whole scene was something out of Kafka...I was furious. I know I am off topic but I loved your comment. Thanks!

05/11/07 @ 19:44

Comment from: Tuen [Member]

Apple_Christmas

Nearly all human cultures have had delusional creation myths. The concept of immortality repeatedly predates Christianity. There are many virgin birth and resurrection myths before the Jesus story. The major themes behind Christianity were not new ideas, just borrowed ones.

evilatheistconquerer....you're too funny...thx

05/11/07 @ 19:59

Comment from: evilatheistconquerer [Member]

Barbiebrains,
The way that the military recruits people is truly disgusting. I've heard of cases where they threatened to deport people and their families if they didn't join up. This one douchebag rich brat that I went to high school with was forced into joining by his parents because he was an addict, but he didn't actually have to go and fight. He just got a cushy little desk job. So you know what he did? He came back to our high school to recruit some other kids, kids who weren't rich and couldn't afford college, kids that would have to fight and kill if they joined. Ok, I gotta stop before I rant anymore. :)

05/11/07 @ 20:58

Comment from: reason [Member]

the mexican war was the best war we ever fought we got 800,000 sq.miles out of it.

05/11/07 @ 22:01

Comment from: sammorjr [Member]

The belief that there ain't no Jesus is actually not a closed-case fact. It is possible that a man named Yeshua lived and preached and got into trouble with the Romans and was put to death. It is also possible that numerous men named Yeshua existed and the early Christians picked a name for their god. I believe that Jesus existed but there have been some tall tales told about him and his divinity was borrowed from other traditions. Jesus of Nazareth? There was no such place as Nazareth in the early years of the Common Era-- there was no Nazareth until the end of the 2nd century CE.

05/12/07 @ 02:35

Comment from: cry4turtles [Member]

If there was a man named Jesus, Yeshua, whatever, he put his pants on one leg at a time, just like me.

PS-"Pants" are metaphorical as I don't think thay had pants in those days.

05/12/07 @ 10:45

Comment from: Jesin [Member]

Even if we do take it as a given that some guy named Jesus existed and was nailed to two pieces of wood and killed because he was a rebel, that doesn't make it much more likely that he flew up into the sky three days later, is watching over the universe, and judges people after they die.

05/12/07 @ 12:29

Comment from: DD Dropout [Member]

On land alone, I would say the Indian wars in total netted the greatest acquisitions for the US.

The part I like about the fictionalised life of Jesus is where he gets to be the fulfilment of multiple prophesies.

It makes it kind of easy when you are able to read the OT prophesies first and then start describing how your character met them.

With this big lie approach used by the writers, it is not possible to identify any aspect that must have belonged to a historical person. It is easy enough to throw out all the supernatural tales of miracles and improbable historical sequences but I see little chance of historians ever agreeing on what can be kept.

Tell me again why an omnipotent god had to torture a part of himself in order to provide one and only one path for some of his creations to evade eternal torture?

05/13/07 @ 01:05

Comment from: bernarda [Member]

There seem to have been several, maybe even many, Jesus-like figures around at the time. Maybe one or another was executed. The biblical Jesus most likely never existed and is just a confused assemblage of various lonely doomsayers of the period.

One such preacher, whose story seems to be the basis for much of the Jesus myth, was Apollonius of Tyana.

http://www.answers.com/topic/apollonius-of-tyana

The big advantage of Apollonius ove Jesus, is that Apollonius is known to have existed. Why is there so much proof of the existence of Apollionius and not one shred of proof of the existence of Jesus?

The simple answer is that there never was a Jesus.

05/14/07 @ 05:29

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