NoGodBlog.com

david how strong is atheism in kentucky.is possible to tell or is it like many places where alot are in the closet.

THOUSANDS OF Atheists, Freethinkers, and Humanists will be joining other advocates of secular education and good science to protest at the opening of the "Answers in Genesis" Creationist Museum in Boone County, KY. on Memorial Day -- Monday, May 28, 2006. We do not oppose the right of AIG or other religious groups to express their opinions, no matter how inaccurate or fanciful. We do support the scientific enterprise, and the teaching of good science.

Thousands...? Wow...now that's faith.

I'll bet the 86 atheists that showed up for the national convention will outnumber those in attendence on Memorial Day...

Funny thing is...this rally, which is designed to try and silence the free speech of others will actually put the AIG museum on the map...this attack on freedom of religion is all the buzz within the christian community...

It would have been better to totally ignore them...

AIG will probably take an ad out stating something like..."THANKS FOR THE FREE ADVERTISEMENT"

I guess the RFR group understands who their followers are...

from their own web site...

Please DO NOT bring: Illegal drugs, weapons of any kind, a negative attitude, an evangelistic attitude, or opinions on how the organizers could have done it better.

Yeah...people of reason...

attack on freedom of religion.get real you want an attack of religious freedom talk to muslims who attack churchs.
when are you going to get it thru that skull of yours we don't want to violate your right to practice your religion.you have made it clear your contempt and hate for atheists.i bear you no ill will but this is tiresome phreedm we simply aren't out to get christians if for no other reason than many of the people we love are christians.

This rally is important and will convince even more christians that their leaders are leading by fantasy only, not by faith and not by truth.

It is good for delusionists to be exposed to others who are not part of their regular group of fellow wishful thinkers.

That's likely the attraction for all those theists that spend time here, right?

As much as it pains me to say this...I actual have to agree with phreedm on this one (washes mouth out with soap) I'm a little rusty on Kentucky geography but I don't think Boone county is all that populous, neither is Kentucky for that matter. Personally I think it would have been a lot better to just ignore it because, like phreedm said, it's getting everyone talking about it. I wouldn't have know about Boone county, Kentucky otherwise. I don't x-tians are going to make pilgrimages to Kentucky to go see this "museum" anyways.

All in all, I think all this rally is doing is making us look bad. We now have no right to complain about fundies crashing a real natural history museum opening, like the human evolution exhibit in Kenya. It's not going to convince people that Genesis is a load of crap, the x-tians in that area are just going to stand all proud and defiant and use this as an example to get more people against us. They already have fox news on their side, lol.

Now....for a shower. I feel gross for some reason.....

reason
with apologies to Karen, don't feed the troll...

Here is a good question to discuss,

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."


John Stuart Mill

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/john_stuart_mill.html

Or this,

"No slave is a slave to the same lengths, and in so full a sense of the word, as a wife is."

The whole idea of throwing a confrontation party is counterproductive. No one will listen to people who obviously despise them.

Let them build and run the place without attention. Wait a bit. Wait for them to do something stupid.

Remember Kent Hovind? How long do you think his creationism theme park will stay in the black while he's in jail for tax fraud?

I hope this museum goes bankrupt like Hovind's(sp?) little theme park. Maybe even the leaders will go to jail like Hovind did.

Dangerman,

I think it is good to protest this little fantasy. The folks that go to this exhibit and take their children are harming their children. I think adults have the right to be idiots, children need real world skills to survive. Children are being robbed of reason and truth. I was once a child in the same situation, they need to know that truth is out there and waiting to be studied when they get out of their parents tyranny. They need a little hope. They need to know we exist.

Comment from: jshanewhit

I hope this museum goes bankrupt

This is highly unlikely since the 27 million was raised through PRIVATE donations...

As I've stated...RFR and AA are actually helping ticket sales...

The folks that go to this exhibit and take their children are harming their children

So who is to decide what a 6 year old should be exposed to? The parents? or the state?

People that live their lives based in reality and reason have generally been silent about those that prefer to live a life based in fantasy. The reasoning, in part was, that the fantasy generally won't hurt anything. However, when the scope of the fantasy becomes too broad and becomes the controlling factor, to the point that the fantasy displaces reason and reality, then the fantasy becomes dangerous and harmful.The christian fantasy is currently dangerous and harmful.

Silence has been tried and it won't work, as the christians are counting on that silence to extend the grip of their fantasy. Some of the people particularly the young ones that visit this fantasy "museum" have no idea that what is being shown inside is not based in fact but, is an imaginary work. The museum needs a huge sign out front "This museum is for fundy only and is not to be taken seriously". The rally will hopefully, in effect provide that sign.

reason...

Yes, an attack on the freedom of religion...

This is a private group using private donations. They are free to believe what they want too.

RFR contracdicts themselves in their opening paragraph when they say "The organizers stress that they do not challenge the right of AiG to present their worldview. “They can teach that things fall up if they wish,” said Edwin Kagin of Union, Kentucky."...

and then finishes the paragrah with...

"“We are simply trying to show that the nonsense they are vending is not accepted by those who do not share their fundamentalist religious views.”...

"thier fundamentalist religious views" are what's under attack...

Yes...an attack on a groups religious freedoms...

And as I've also stated, RFR and AA are using the opening as an excuse to get their own headlines...nothing more...nothing less...which will once again solidify their low poll numbers...

One things for certain...they don't understand how the political landscape works...

Comment from: aussieatheist

reason
with apologies to Karen, don't feed the troll...

Hmmm...and here's a great example of the thought police attempting to force their own limited ability to debate upon the freedom of others who choose too...

Hey Aussie...why not do a web cast with me...like you did with Dave...?

**OFF TOPIC**

Dear Dave;

I implore you, please block it from future posts. It is an agitating troll with whom rational discourse is impossible, and it thoroughly disrupts each and every thread. It has been repeatedly proven that it is impossible to debate one who has so thoroughly mastered "5 D's of Dodgeball" as they are applied to debate: Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.

Please, Dave, it has to go.


TIM

bernarda provided this food for thought:

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."

John Stuart Mill

It seems odd to me that a group of people with a most irrational agenda, are labeled conservative.

Phreed-hem,

So who is to decide what a 6 year old should be exposed to? The parents? or the state?

So tell me dumb-ass, should the gov't have anything to say to me should I decide to ply my seven and nine year old children with alcohol and marijuhana...in the privacy of my own home, of course?

What about innoculations? I guess you think it is okay for parents to deny their children life saving vaccines for religious reasons? No HPV vaccine for YOUR daughter. If she has premarital sex, or extramarital sex, or if her spouse does the same thing without her knowledge, well then, she deserves to die from cervical cancer! God's will, and all that, you know.

phreedm,

This is a private group using private donations.

Then they should keep their museum private. It is bad enough they are corrupting their own children, but when they attempt to corrupt the youth of others something should be done stop it.

They are free to believe what they want too.

Of course. We should all be free to believe what we wish. But when was the last time you saw a Church of Satan or a Temple of Zeus on a street corner? There is no freedom of religion in America. That's a myth. Just like the myth the Creationist Museum is attempting to perpetuate.

these crazy work hours are killing me
but back to the subject.the funds used for the museum where donors able to take a income tax deduction on fed or state taxes and does the museum get tax breaks as a religious org.

Sorry folks, Phreedm is correct on this.

As long as this "museum" is not receiving funds by dipping into public money through government grants, etc., they can promote any version of history they wish.

The corrupting of youth — as some of you have put it — is no different than what any church or fundamentally religious parents do to their children. Do any of you really believe that a parent who wants their children to learn real science would take their children to this "museum" and tell their kids — "ah, so this is how it really happened". Please. And, how many of you would enjoy the state (or AA for that matter) dictating what you can and can’t teach your own children?

As a side note, if public schools conduct field trips to this "museum", then that would be something I would rally against. They would be using publicly-paid officials to promote religious concepts in the public school system. No different than taking a class to the local church as a field trip. Has this occurred?

So far as I’m aware, this museum is guilty of nothing more than promoting anti-intellectualism. If that's what some parents what their kids to learn, that's their right.

We should not be protesting this "museum". Phreedm is correct.

Disagree:

If that's what some parents what their kids to learn, that's their right.

It's a form of mental abuse, children can't think for themselves & are being brainwashed. Ditto for all the fundy nonsense as well, I'm with Dawkins on this one. Children are not property of their parents, don't treat them as such.

So who is to decide what a 6 year old should be exposed to? The parents? or the state?

Perfect example, there's a whole generation of suicide bombers being raised, b/c their parents refuse to expose them to reality. But I guess it's the parent's right huh?

I'm really tiring of all of this bullshit. A fucking YEC museum can raise $27 million in private donations in the year 2007CE, and only 13% of NIH/NSF grants are approved for much less than this amount. It's a very sad state of affairs.

DVan Wechel-

Totally agree. This is no different than any other tourist trap in the mid-west and south. It's privately owned and operated, they can do what they want. I actually would enjoy going there and seeing what a museum of genesis could exhibit. In my eyes it's no different than these cathedrals here in Europe. They've all got some relic from the time of christ. The one in Trier has the alleged "unbroken robe of jesus" Give me a break.

Second point, it's in Boone county, Kentucky. Who the hell cares about some weirdos house of horrors in the middle of no where. If it was in DC next to the Smithsonians...different story.

This protest just seems like a huge waste of time and energy that could be better spent on a more worth while cause. Plus, like phreedm continues to point out, we're advertising for them. People love controversy and this whole protest is going to draw crowds. The fact is, the operators of the museum are not breaking any laws, not infringing upon anyones rights anymore than a normal church does, and they aren't helping their case by putting their "museum" in the middle of no where.

Although it is a bit low of them to call it a museum. It's like tricking people to go to a church...oh well.

mxracer-
In mississippi churches had commercials on TV and during previews in movie theaters. Who was paying for those I wonder....

It is sad.

Danderman is the unbroken robe of jesus like the foreskin of jesus.
also what is sad the tv commercials or mississippi.

Hey Dangerman;

"Second point, it's in Boone county, Kentucky. Who the hell cares about some weirdos house of horrors in the middle of nowhere."


I live in Boone County, KY! It is not the middle of nowhere, as others would have you believe. The "museum" is on a rural road that leads to a perception of being in the sticks, but the constant roar of jets into and out of CVG will immediately dispel any such notion. This thing is 20 minutes from downtown Cincinnati.

So, to answer your question, I care. It's embarrassing to have the community in which I live associated with this nonsense. And I believe this thing will help add legitimacy to the creationist movement nationwide, so to say "it doesn't effect me because it's in the middle of nowhere" would be to ignore the bigger picture.

DVanWechel:

how many of you would enjoy the state (or AA for that matter) dictating what you can and can’t teach your own children?

From The AA press release:

We do not oppose the right of AIG or other religious groups to express their opinions, no matter how inaccurate or fanciful. We do support the scientific enterprise, and the teaching of good science.

This is definitely not a call to shut the museum down. It is simply an opportunity to speak out in the name of good science.

For decades the general approach of the scientific community was to ignore creationism. And just look at how it's paid off - we are second only to Turkey in scientific illiteracy. Keeping silent has brought us nothing but disaster, and we have a lot of catching up to do.

I support the Rally For Reason.

Comment from: SonnyDenbow

There is no freedom of religion in America.

Wow...and here I thought Dave's misinterpretation of the constitution was radical...

It doesn't matter how many people want to see the fantasy "museum". What matters is that they understand the exhibits are based on fantasy not on anything that should be believed.

Think of the chill'ns that will be told that it's real! That will simply create problems for them in the future. Support the rally, do it for the children.

R4D,

I'm not of the opinion that rallying at a sideshow attraction in "no-where's-ville", Kentucky is an example of resources well placed — or a good selection in choosing our battles.

Also, I think your assertion that America is lacking so incredibly in the scientific community is misleading and a bit alarmist. We are one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. We have provided the world some of the most important scientific discoveries in history. Science done by Americans took us to the moon, put rovers on mars, gave us the computer, and the list goes on and on.

Certainly there is a problem with America's public education system — just as there always has been. But addressing scientific illiteracy begins there, not at a rally at a creationist propaganda institution in Kentucky.

To say that scientists not spending their time countering ignorance has resulted in disaster simply isn't true. What disaster are you speaking of?

Rallying at a creationist museum does nothing to change the culture of anti-intellectualism in this country. The problem is far bigger than that. It is likely that the rally will be seen as an attack on religious freedoms by those who subscribe to its B.S. How will this help address scientific illiteracy?

Those who believe such nonsense, will in most cases, not have their minds changed through protest by those they see as elitist heathens.

Look, don’t get me wrong. I certainly support reason countering the irrational claims of the religious. But, it seems to me, this “museum” is the least effective place to do so.

MX,

I'm not going to be in the business of classifying religious teachings by parents to their children as a form of child abuse. That seems like a very dangerous slope.

However, I personally would agree that teaching nonsense to children as fact does do them harm in a number of ways.

i loved the flintstones cartoons as a kid.

DVanWechel

I think your assertion that America is lacking so incredibly in the scientific community is misleading and a bit alarmist.

I wasn't talking about the current scientific community. I was talking about science literacy within the general public. It is impossible to be labeled an alarmist when the sky has already fallen.

We are one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world.

Your point? Why is it that people always equate good science with the selling of gadgets?

We have provided the world some of the most important scientific discoveries in history.

Ha. History being the key word there.

Science done by Americans took us to the moon, put rovers on mars, gave us the computer, and the list goes on and on.

Well, just to get it this point out of the way, science education in public schools was significantly better in the late sixties than it is now, and we can probably thank Allen Turing, a Brit chemically castrated for being a homosexual, for the computer. But all of that is beside the point. Science education isn't just for eggheads who dream of building martian rovers. A misinformed public is an easily manipulated public.

Certainly there is a problem with America's public education system — just as there always has been. But addressing scientific illiteracy begins there, not at a rally at a creationist propaganda institution in Kentucky.

You are missing the point of all of this. If we do not express our point of view, the opposing view wins via forfeit. And that is exactly what has been going on for the last three decades.

To say that scientists not spending their time countering ignorance has resulted in disaster simply isn't true. What disaster are you speaking of?

Ask and ye shall receive:



That, sir, is what I call a total disaster.

Rallying at a creationist museum does nothing to change the culture of anti-intellectualism in this country. The problem is far bigger than that.

Of course it is, and sitting on our ass certainly isn't going to do much to change the culture of anit-intellectualism.

It is likely that the rally will be seen as an attack on religious freedoms by those who subscribe to its B.S.

Anything we do or say will likely be construed as such, and it will be a lie anyway. It's our job to effectively articulate the position that religious freedom includes the right to be critical of religion. That's all that is happening here - a group coming together to voice an opinion.

Those who believe such nonsense, will in most cases, not have their minds changed through protest by those they see as elitist heathens.

You're probably right (which is why we shouldn't care what they think of the rally), but it's not about conversion - none of this is. It's about standing up and being vocal.

r4d
You're right, it's not about conversion.
It's possible that there are agnostics and atheists and other freethinkers around the country who are unaware that this creation museum exists. And if the rally gets news by being there, and causes one, or a few, more other like-minded people to get off their apathetic butts and say "Enough is enough", then that will be a good thing indeed.

Yes, it will bring more attention to the museum and the creationists themselves, but I am beginning to think it is very important to have others out there on opening day to say that there is an alternative way to think.

At a time when science and social studies are considered electives (i.e. expendible)in our schools, an offering such as this museum can only take us further backwards and should be opposed.

Not that I am saying no one can believe in what is being sold there, just that it should be known that there is another side which counters it.

r4d...which of the following statements to you believe to be true.

1. The universe is eternal. No beginning, no end.

2. The universe had a beginning.
3. The universe was created by some other force.

Can you think of any other possibilities?

And no I'm not confusing evolution here...

phreedm,

I believe, because of the evidence, that complexity can only arise through incremental steps of compounded simplicity, and that simple rule informs any speculation I may happen to entertain about the origins of the universe.

In other words: You can't say that everything complex must have a creator and then say that the most complex thing imaginable (a creator of the whole universe) is eternal. That's just taking the same problem and conveniently placing it inside a realm where no one can address it (i.e. the supernatural.)

Chew on that one for a while.

I wasn't talking about the current scientific community. I was talking about science literacy within the general public. It is impossible to be labeled an alarmist when the sky has already fallen.

Hasn't fallen, and likely won't fall.
Scientists were generally members of the general public before they become scientists. Some are interested in science, some are not. Unfortunately, less and less of the general public are interested in science and technology — but that's not just an American problem. Regardless, I don't see it as the sky has fallen. I see it as a reversible problem.

Your point? Why is it that people always equate good science with the selling of gadgets?

I don't necessarily equate technological advancement with the selling of gadgets — but since you seem to...

Technology is often the product of science, that was my point.

...can probably thank Allen Turing,

Did you mean Alan Turing? : )

A misinformed public is an easily manipulated public.

True, assuming they don't have access to the correct information. Here in America, they are making a choice not to believe as they do have access to the correct information. Either way, it doesn't matter. Science doesn't require belief. Phreedm is the perfect example. He may deny evolution is a valid scientific theory, but I bet he benefits everyday from genetic algorithms. No belief required.

That, sir, is what I call a total disaster.

Your chart is in regards to evolution — not all of science. As we both know, evolution specifically is treated differently in this country on religious grounds (This is one of the more religious countries in the industrialized world). But those same people that reject evolution aren't necessarily illiterate when it comes to other scientific disciplines. We are discussing science as a whole, I thought — not just how Americans feel about evolution?

Oops, the above post was for R4D...

Re: rainbows4dinosaurs comment

Iceland
Denmark
...
...
United States
Turkey.

Ha! That right there proves that christians are smarter than turkeys ;) However, it would appear that christians may be related to turkeys.

Gobble gobble?
(That's christian for; what say you christans.)

Dangerdude:

In mississippi churches had commercials on TV and during previews in movie theaters

More waste. It truly is a pity.

DVanWechlinstein:

I'm not going to be in the business of classifying religious teachings by parents to their children as a form of child abuse.

You don't think the teaching that the fire & brimstone of hell as a real & actual place to a small child isn't a form of abuse?

So maybe parents teach their kids that jay-sus turned water into wine, no big deal, no psychological baggage. But when threats of eternal damnation & torture arise out of purely natural biological functions (premarital sex, mastur-bation, homosexuality, etc), that can have a very detrimental effect on a young person's mental stability.

Abuse is abuse.

r4d...

So, your take is #2...

You believe the universe created itself...

phreedm...

No, I believe the verb 'created' is a misnomer.

r4d...you may not like the word "created" because of it's connotations, but that is exactly the process you're describing.

Or would you prefer...the universe (made/is making) itself...?

DVanWechel:

Hasn't fallen, and likely won't fall.

Well aren't you a wellspring of optimism. Tell me then, what do you propose we do? Sit around in our own little echo chamber lamenting the sorrowful ignorance that so many children will be spoon fed simply because they have the misfortune of being born into a fundamentalist family? Should we just silently smirk at such atrocious enterprises and pretend that there isn't a very good chance that this preposterous nonsense will not only work its way into the mainstream consciousness but influence our country's ability to compete on a global scale?

Unfortunately, less and less of the general public are interested in science and technology — but that's not just an American problem.

There are many widely publicized statistics showing that America is rapidly losing its competitive advantage in science and technology. All one has to do is look.

Regardless, I don't see it as the sky has fallen. I see it as a reversible problem.

Well so do I, and that is why I support rallying in the name of good science.

I don't necessarily equate technological advancement with the selling of gadgets — but since you seem to...

Technology is often the product of science, that was my point

Hmmm... "but since you seem to..." That was very tricky and disingenuous of you. I'm talking about how scientific knowledge informs a person's world-view, and how that world-view influences every decision in every sphere of human interaction. Our current administration is a perfect example of how a crippled understanding of the world pretty much guarantees one fuck up after another.

Did you mean Alan Turing? : )

Yes I did. Thank you.

True, assuming they don't have access to the correct information. Here in America, they are making a choice not to believe as they do have access to the correct information.

Just saying 'they have access, they made the choice' is a copout, IMO. Information must compete, and, as much as it pains me to admit, the truthfulness of a particular bit of information has absolutely no baring on its competitiveness... unless, of course, one adopts a scientific world-view. I guess that's the rub.

Either way, it doesn't matter. Science doesn't require belief. Phreedm is the perfect example. He may deny evolution is a valid scientific theory, but I bet he benefits everyday from genetic algorithms. No belief required.

It certainly does matter because we are practically up to our ears in the phreedms of this country. We pretty much have an exact clone of phreedm calling the shots in Washington. (ha - and they say they're against cloning) We are a global laughing stock, and soon we will have to buy our genetic algorithms and whatnot from better educated societies.

Your chart is in regards to evolution — not all of science. As we both know, evolution specifically is treated differently in this country on religious grounds (This is one of the more religious countries in the industrialized world)

Oh man... are you playing games with me? Just what the hell do you think this whole thread is about anyway? Certainly you don't think that evolution is the only scientific fact subverted by religion in this country, do you?

But those same people that reject evolution aren't necessarily illiterate when it comes to other scientific disciplines.

When a person disregards evolution, they've thrown out what many describe as the most successful scientific theory in history. If a person happens to be a young earth creationist, the type of creationist that would find the 'museum' in question edifying, then he/she would have also rejected all of modern geology, all of modern cosmology, all of modern chemistry, and all of modern physics. (EDIT: Not to mention our modern understanding of history, archaeology, anthropology... really the list could go on ad infinitum.) Tell me sir, how is that even remotely functional?

We are discussing science as a whole, I thought — not just how Americans feel about evolution?

This thread is about creationism, and I think I've just made an effective point that adopting young earth creationism is nothing less than the wholesale rejection of all scientific knowledge.

phreedm...

How about the word 'evolved'?

(sheesh)

r4d...

We're not talking about evolution...we're talking about the beginning of the universe...or are you stating the universe evolved?

Phreedm...

(bug eyed) Ummm.... yes. It's called Cosmological Evolution.


See what I mean, DVanWechel?

Phreedm...

Oh wait, you were asking me what came before the universe. I don't know - that's a mystery that has birth many interesting speculations.

Tell me, what do you believe came before God? I know I know, 'God is outside space and time' (spoken in a solemn, monotone voice) How convenient.

R4D

See what I mean, DVanWechel?

Oops - I should say: "Certainly do."

r4d...

I see you're unable to have a calm intelligent conversation about the holes in Cosmological Evolution...

Who says you don't have faith...

You actually do believe the universe or whatever it's contained in is eternal...but I would submit you're hesitant to use the word "eternal" for the same reasons the word "created" is not in your vocabulary...

Here's the deal...at some point we all need to fall back upon faith...at some point we all have to "believe" something is eternal...

And yes, I know exactly what it's called...had the conversation been the other way around and I mixed the word evolution with the beginning of the universe, I would have been chastised...

However, I would "postulate" that your ideas of gradual Cosmological Evolution are in direct violation of the Law of Cause and Effect...

R4D,

Well aren't you a wellspring of optimism. Tell me then, what do you propose we do?

Oh stop being so mellow dramatic. : )

My point was that there is little effectiveness in the approach you're taking. In fact, it will likely make our cause (to fight misinformation with accurate information and reason) more difficult.

Just one idea that may be more effective would be to launch a broad-spectrumed P.R. campaign that utilized both print and broadcast media. This campaign would target a young demo (probably 8 to 15 years of age) and would leverage current, high-profile scientific accomplishments to draw America’s youth to scientific careers (if not just spur their interest in the sciences). Paint important scientists as heroes (because many are in my opinion). It seems to me this would be a far more effective means of changing minds, and turn the trend away from anti-intellectualism, than protesting outside a "museum" who's target audience isn't interested in reason and accurate information.

The American Association for the Advancement of Science would be a good place to start.

And by the way, from your posts, you appear to be an optimist as well.

There are many widely publicized statistics showing that America is rapidly losing its competitive advantage in science and technology. All one has to do is look.

Agreed, though I don’t believe it has much of a correlation with the religious in this country. I think it has more to do with distraction and mass media and a number of economic and social problems here in America. People prefer to watch reality T.V. rather than read a book, for example. I think religious misinformation plays a VERY limited roll (in most of the scientific disciplines).

That was very tricky and disingenuous of you.

You’re right, it was. Just a bit of a rub for making a broad assumption about what I believe (though I suppose you didn’t directly address me, but that’s how I read it) – and for seeming to purposefully misinterpret my point. Maybe my point wasn’t clear.

Just saying 'they have access, they made the choice' is a copout...

It’s not a copout. It’s reality. My whole point is that I believe protests in front of a creationist museum is attacking the problem from the wrong angle and is poorly thought out. I never said I didn’t want to fight in the competition of information and ideas. Sheesh, you sure seem to jump to conclusions.

This thread is about creationism, and I think I've just made an effective point that adopting young earth creationism is nothing less than the wholesale rejection of all scientific knowledge.

I skipped to this part because your other points are certainly valid and I think we only subtly differ on them. No point in banging heads on those...I suppose that our difference is that I believe people are very good about compartmentalizing and they don’t necessarily throw out all of science (or dismiss it for that matter) simply because they don’t believe in evolution. Creationists are another matter.

I suppose I would ask (based on the above block quote) why it is you believe this "museum" will be capable of changing the minds of people? My impression of it is that it will do nothing but function as a Disneyland for those who don't need convincing — those that have already rejected science (hence its location). Protesting in front of it, in my view, is making our voice heard to the wrong audience.

MX,

I didn't realize my name was so easily converted to German. Sweet.

I understand your position and I also feel your points are valid. But in most cases, I can't agree that parents teaching their children religion (as a way to live) is abuse.

I think it is in the intensity and the nature of teaching religion that would have to be considered before it could be labeled abuse.

I don't think all parents who teach their children their religion do so in the same way and therefore one couldn’t classify all teaching of religion to children as abuse...

I'll try to use a practical (if not completely hypothetical) example at Spanders’ expense.

If Spanders had children, I would venture to guess he wouldn't teach some of those abusive religious requirements you mentioned to his kids — though he would still be teaching them religion. Would you consider the way in which he might teach his children religion abuse. Based on how he has illustrated his positions regarding religion and his faith on this blog, I likely couldn't.

So, I guess my ultimate point is that classifying the teaching of religion to children as a form of child abuse is far to broad and dangerous a generalization.

Just my thoughts.

MX,

Oh wait, maybe more specifically, I didn't know my last name could be so easily converted to Jewish/German.

Cool.

DVanWechel

Oh stop being so mellow dramatic. : )

Ha. Well, if I had to choose one word to describe my personality... ;)

My point was that there is little effectiveness in the approach you're taking. In fact, it will likely make our cause (to fight misinformation with accurate information and reason) more difficult.

It sounds like your basic argument is that we shouldn't go around stirring up the hornet's nest. I disagree. I see that approach as indicative of what Dawkins calls the 'Neville Chamberlain' school of atheism, and it is an attitude that has never gotten us anywhere. No, I say kick damn nest over and stomp on it. You may get stung a few times, but at least they know you've got feet!

And I agree with your ideas about promoting science, I just think some direct protest is in order too.

Agreed, though I don’t believe it has much of a correlation with the religious in this country. I think it has more to do with distraction and mass media and a number of economic and social problems here in America. People prefer to watch reality T.V. rather than read a book, for example. I think religious misinformation plays a VERY limited roll (in most of the scientific disciplines).

Oh man... where exactly did you grow up? Have you ever spent any time with these folks? Well, you could always just look at the numbers and see a direct correlation between religiosity and scientific illiteracy in this country. It's no coincidence that we share so much in common with a country like Turkey.

You’re right, it was. Just a bit of a rub for making a broad assumption about what I believe (though I suppose you didn’t directly address me, but that’s how I read it) – and for seeming to purposefully misinterpret my point. Maybe my point wasn’t clear.

I can assure you that I never purposefully misinterpret a point. But you did articulate an argument that I seem to hear all the time - "look at our rockets! look at our laptops! look at our stealth fighter vertical take-off laser guided thingamajig!" Yeah, whatever. Look at that ridiculous animatronic diorama of Adam and Eve with their pet triceratops.

My whole point is that I believe protests in front of a creationist museum is attacking the problem from the wrong angle and is poorly thought out.

And my whole point is that the tactic of ignoring these kinds of enterprises while assuming that our own wiz-bang presentations will win out simply because they are true has already been tried and has failed miserably. Actually, that's just part of my point. The other part is that we shouldn't give a damn about who we might be offending by saying this museum is bullshit. It is bullshit, and we need to be saying so, LOUDLY.

I never said I didn’t want to fight in the competition of information and ideas. Sheesh, you sure seem to jump to conclusions.

Welcome to the wild world of internet communication.

I suppose that our difference is that I believe people are very good about compartmentalizing and they don’t necessarily throw out all of science (or dismiss it for that matter) simply because they don’t believe in evolution. Creationists are another matter.

How can someone not believe in evolution and yet not be a creationist? Most anti-evolutionists in this country are in fact young earth creationists, BTW.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm

I suppose I would ask (based on the above block quote) why it is you believe this "museum" will be capable of changing the minds of people? My impression of it is that it will do nothing but function as a Disneyland for those who don't need convincing — those that have already rejected science (hence its location).

I'm willing to bet right now that this facility is going to be a huge hit. I'm almost positive that 80% of my family on my father's side, along with all their friends, are planning their vacations around it right now. I also think it is very likely that this is only the first of many to come. I hope I'm wrong though.

Protesting in front of it, in my view, is making our voice heard to the wrong audience.

And my view is that direct confrontation is the only viable course of action. You are more than welcome to stay home.

phreedm

I see you're unable to have a calm intelligent conversation about the holes in Cosmological Evolution...

Sure I'm able. Just find me an intelligent person and I'll show you.

You actually do believe the universe or whatever it's contained in is eternal...but I would submit you're hesitant to use the word "eternal" for the same reasons the word "created" is not in your vocabulary...

No. What I'm doing is avoiding the use of the word 'eternal' because I don't know whether it is eternal or not - or even what 'eternal' might mean in that context. Of course we do know that the universe was not always as it is now - that it has been expanding outwards from an extremely hot and dense state for the last 13.7 billion years. What came before? Who the hell knows? I've already blabbed on enough about M-Theory on this blog, but as jcc loves to point out there's no way of knowing at this point whether any of that is true or not. It certainly is interesting, but 'interesting' does not mean 'true'. (nor does 'comforting', or 'edifying', or 'inspired', or 'gospel')

Here's the deal...at some point we all need to fall back upon faith...at some point we all have to "believe" something is eternal...

I don't have to fall back on anything. I don't have a need to know exactly what was going on before the big bang. But even if I did, my 'leap of faith' postulation would still be infinitely more probable than yours.

However, I would "postulate" that your ideas of gradual Cosmological Evolution are in direct violation of the Law of Cause and Effect...

How so? I said that I didn't know what caused it. You're the one who believes in an unmoved mover - an uncaused cause. And not only that, this uncaused cause is supposed to be the most complicated thing imaginable. Infinite, eternal, all knowing, all loving, all creating, all everything and more. So who exactly is violating cause and effect here?

I'd say you're not only violating it, you're raping it to death.

It is my hope that kids whose parents take them to this monstrosity will reflect that there are people protesting this but no one protest's the real science museums. Many will say it's just 'the world' hating the truth, but a few at least will question that explanation. Kids like me who were raised to believe this crap.

Someone asked if there were many atheists in KY. I don't know how many of us there are, but I am one of them. And there is a decent sized group (10-20) that meets in Louisville every month though Meetup.

I'm intending to go to the protest myself, and I've found a few at my Unitarian church who are interested in going as well.