NoGodBlog.com

SEMPER FI !

I don't know about celebrating. I haven't been able to think about Memorial Day for awhile without thinking about Iraq. I agree that it is a good day to acknowledge our veterans, but I think it is also a good day to reflect on why we are still in Iraq and why nobody has yet been held accountable.

Rememberence of veterans and sacrifice seems to become more attractive as greater time passes between the present and the conflict remembered. I think wars become less dirty as history sanitizes much of the mistakes, brutality, and tragic waste of life and liberty, and leaves in relief the heroism, sacrifice and valour.

In Australia and New Zealand we commemorate ANZAC day (April 25) in rememberence primarily of the colonial (at that time) troops sent to fight in the misdirected campaign in Gallipoli in 1915 where the Australian forces suffered 50% casualties and the NZ forces 90%.

To my mind such tragedies and misadventures resulting in disastrous consequences are the appropriate way to remember. Remember the fallen, remember the callous disregard our leaders can have for the blood of their countrymen. Remember how easily even well intentioned leaders can feed their armed forces into the meat grinder of a war of folly.

I salute those that answer the call trusting that the cause is just and the leadership has their best interests at heart. At the same time I caution those who answer to look at their histories and ask how often that call has been justified and how often it has been at the whim of dubious ideology and political jingoism.

The record to this very day is mixed at best.

My daughter's and daughter-in-law's birthdays sandwich this weekend, so it's a good one for me.

______
Thanks! to all you vets out there, past and present.

HOOAH!

karen:

Sorry again for the overdue reply to your post from several threads back (and so what if this is off topic?—our discussions are far more interesting than the vast majority of the inane topics they pick here anyway).

Find me anyone who will argue that the night sky isn’t beautiful.

How about a blind person? And then there's HZ. Honestly, there may be plenty of people who are unimpressed by it.

A blind person? Really karen, can ya try to stay on track? The point was that there is a universal appreciation of beauty—and that appreciation is a gift, not an “evolved trait.”

I have researched the biblical story, but not ID. I've read a little about ID, and it seems to be just a cover for "goddidit", without naming one.

Was what little you have read of ID written by opponents or proponents of it? Seems to me that if you were truly interested in making an informed and objective decision on the subject then you would give equal time researching both sides—reading what the proponents of each have to say about it—not just what the opponents say.

Since the last electroshock treatments, I have great difficulty reading and remembering anything of any length. But I may look around for a lay friendly book, or peruse it online. Odds are, I won't recall much of what I read, if I don't talk about it.

I pray that those effects will be temporary and that you can regain your full faculties quickly. And there are a plethora of easily comprehended books and videos outlining ID that were written by leading scientists in the fields of astronomy, physics and biology that are available. If you are genuinely interested, it would be my honor to send some to you.

I keep trying to cut your dad a break and you keep slicing the bread as thin as possible. I guess you're just being honest about him.

Yes. Unfortunately, we’re all hardest on those we love—probably because we’re able to see their problems more clearly than they can.

Life ain't just smooth sailing. I suggest you let him handle it in his own way, sounds like it's time he had a challenge.

I have. I’ve tried to preserve as much of his dignity as possible by not badgering him, but unfortunately, without him turning to God, he has no other effective way to handle it. The challenge is too great to handle it alone.

Perhaps your dad is doing what a lot of christians do, and that is pay lip service.

Absolutely! That’s what I’ve been trying to get you to understand all along. He wants all the benefits of a relationship with God without having to make the necessary commitment to Him.

Or perhaps he is finding out that there is really nothing there to believe in.

karen, don’t you see that, like any other relationship, if you refuse to commit yourself to it and make an effort to sustain it, (i.e. opt to take the selfish approach) then you set yourself up for despair? Not believing in God and believing but not committing yourself to Him yields the same results. In the end it leaves one bitter and unfulfilled.

God gives us challenges to develop our character and faith in Him with—not to see if we can pass His tests.

Like Job? How do you know he doesn't have millions of little side bets with the devil going on all the time to make the game more interesting?

Good question. But I don’t see it that way. We’re not in God’s petri dish where He determines our fate based on our actions—that logically negates the purpose of the cross. In very real ways, Job’s plight mirrors everyone who’s ever lived. God never promised us that life would be trouble free; we all must face hardships in one form or another (because, like I asked before, how else can we build character?). The question is, as the book of Job indicates, do we choose faith or despair during those hardships?

Intellectually, I regard suicide as cowardice, and if I succumbed to it, then ultimately, I would be a coward and my faith would, instead, actually be despair.

I think you'd have to look at each individual case to determine courage or cowardice. I can think of cases where each would apply.

I disagree. History is replete with heroes who found courage through their faith to face what befell them without surrendering to despair. One such hero is Nick Vujicic (http://www.lifewithoutlimbs.org/)

On the other hand, I do firmly believe that God does not give us more than we can handle.

Then why so many theistic suicides?

Theistic suicides? It’s true that faith cannot be regarded as a commodity where our salvation is concerned, but when it comes to finding courage in trying times, its magnitude irrefutably is a deciding factor.

He obviously does not give enough reason to support faith not turning to despair.

Again, I disagree; there have been far better people than me who have persevered through faith under circumstances that I cannot imagine having to endure.

I’ve made it though 30 years of episodic clusters by praying for Him to get me through them.

How is he helping you through them now?

By giving me the strength to endure it when the pain is the worst.

You say you pray through every minute of every episode. Do you take medication for them?

Yes, but it’s far from being a magic bullet. If I don’t take the Imitrex within the first few minutes, or if I misalign the inhaler and spray it up into my sinuses rather than into my lungs, I get no relief at all.

Or do you rely only on him getting you through?

In the times the Imitrex doesn’t work, I have no other choice.

I asked if you didn't think you were intelligent enough to participate in this conversation on your own.

I think the more appropriate question to ask would be:do I possess the wisdom to participate in this conversation on my own? To which I would say that at the core of wisdom is knowing when to seek council before speaking. My intelligence alone isn’t sufficient to hold your ear here. Paul said it quite well, “if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.”—1 Cor.13:2.

Christianity is not intuitive. It’s not something that, given enough time; one can arrive at on one’s own.

Well, I've been operating on a misperception then. I thought you said we were imbued with morality (the christian variety) and god and jesus and the spirit at birth-or was it at inception. My mistake.

Perhaps I was unclear. The message of salvation through Christ is not intuitive—not our ability to always acknowledge what’s right and wrong.

It has to be told to us by others (i.e. the Bible).

Yeah, cos it was MADE UP.

karen, that’s just silly. It contains far too much historic information that is independently verifiable to be “made up.”

What you perceived as secrets were the misunderstandings and lack of knowledge of those you were depending on.

No argument here.

No, it was their not being able to admit that they couldn't explain the unexplainable, or reveal a lie.

The Bible isn’t an encyclopedia on God—it’s salvation history; it’s everything we need to know about our salvation, not everything we want to know.

I’d much rather have challenges in my life than be guaranteed an equal outcome.

There is an equal outcome; we all die.

But before that you said you wanted life to be fair—which it is not. And yes, we all die, but even then, especially, the outcome is most definitely not equal.

"I love you just the way you are. Now change or I won't play with you when you die."

karen, are you deliberately trying to get that wrong, or do you simply not understand it?

Keeping God in the equation is quite difficult because it forces us to acknowledge that we cannot control every aspect of our lives; that we are not the final authority in our lives and that we are ultimately responsible for all we do—not our genetics.

WE don't control everything.

Exactly!

Some of life is left up to chance. If r4d's neighbors had left 5 minutes later or earlier that day, they may not have been hit by the flatbed truck.
Your way, there's no way to avoid it. God had a flatbed coming for them.

God, and God alone has the prerogative to pick when our numbers are up. And not being able to control all of our circumstances has absolutely nothing to do with how we choose to react to them.

Ok, but THEN what? This [eternity in heaven] is forever and ever and ever dude. Boring.

Oh karen… Again, my intention here is not to be arrogant or belittling, but it’s that seemingly deliberately restricted concept of yours that evokes great pity for you in me. Are you saying there’s a limit to your imagination—or the things you can imagine? And why you would prefer nonexistence over an opportunity for infinite joy is completely baffling to me.

How could it [forgiveness] not be to your benefit?

Dunno. It's an irrationality I'm working on.

And with your permission, I’d very much like to help you with that.

there was a new little girl in class who is quite a bit shorter than everyone else and, unfortunately, most of the kids immediately started teasing her about it. Is that good or evil?

It's neither good nor evil. It's mean; part of being a kid. I'll bet ya the majority of the kids were christians too, weren't they? (Just taking a wild guess that you're not sending your kids to an atheist school.)Not paying much attention about doing unto others, eh?

karen, why do you insist on denying the obvious? It wasn’t “neither,” it was unequivocally an evil thing to do to another human being. And why do you insist on treating good and evil as nouns and not the adjectives that they are? We are not defined by our actions. The only way that we could be is if we were completely unrepentant of the evil that we purposefully do. No one is without hope.

My parents' bodies created the sperm and egg, etc.

But they didn’t create you—your personality, the unique person of karen.

Then get ready, ‘cause this is as “good as it gets.”

Time to quote SpongBob: "I'm ready! I'm Ready! I'm ready, eddy, eddy!"

Again, my intention is not to feign piety but, I really do pity you because you have such limited expectations.

Let me know when you decide it’s “moral” to take an ax to your neighbor’s head.

OK, unless the head belongs to you. That would take the level of surprise out of it and sort of defeat the purpose. ;)

Your humor aside, are you saying that there is a way to construe that as being moral?

And when I wrong someone, I'll ask for forgiveness.

But what about the things that you didn’t consider to be wrong, but in reality were (i.e. being blinded by your pride)?

But all the myriad of things you and your god consder to be sins are not on my list and I won't worry about them.

Can’t you see how arrogant and prideful that sounds? How can you define your own code of morality when you’re unwilling and incapable of seeing all the hurt that you can, and have, caused to others but haven’t acknowledged it?

If you're going to insist on spiritual, then it can't be explained, cos it doesn't exist

Let me get this straight. You’re dismissing the existence of anything spiritual because it can’t be explained—to your satisfaction?

emotionally, it's neurons firing and reactions to stimuli, etc.

Again, what is the source of those emotions, and the motivation behind those thoughts associated with those firing neurons???

And the longest post of the century goes to...
Damn, talk about having way too much time on your hands.

Having a party here Saturday night and I'm going to make a toast to my Nephew who is 3000 miles away. He made it through two tours in Iraq and now he's out of the military, safely back in college.
Another toast goes to my late Father who served in WWII in the Navy.

whodat say HOOA!?

jcc

Sorry again for the overdue reply to your post from several threads back (and so what if this is off topic?—our discussions are far more interesting than the vast majority of the inane topics they pick here anyway).

I'm digesting your comments, but just wanted to respond quickly to this with
A. I wouldn't label a Memorial Day topic inane, yet that's the one you
chose to go off topic on, and practically at the beginning of the thread. Kinda crass, don't you think, in hindsight?

2. While we find our discussions interesting, I'm not sure how the others here feel about them, and I've been wondering for a while if we shouldn't take them to email.
Would you consider that?

"To most people, it's about Summer, beach openings, changes in clothing, car sales, etc"

That's what most people do on Memorial Day, but that's not what it's about to most people. You and I are not the only people who know someone, a relative or friend, who made the ultimate sacrifice. Most people know someone like that. And, I refuse believe that, on Memorial Day, cars and clothes weigh heavier on their minds than loved ones lost forever.

Why do you assume the worst about your fellow humans?

I agree with Karen that jcc was crass at picking this topic about Memorial Day and the honoring of the brave men and women who have served and given their lives to write his journal? diatribe? whatever?

I, for one, as the spouse of an AF officer currently serving 19+ years and risking his life every day found it inappropriately placed.

My dad was a Staff Sargeant in the US Army Air Corps and mostly maintained planes overseas during WWII. While he knew that the planes he serviced dropped bombs, he was kind of pleased that he never once had to personally use his gun or rifle to shoot, let alone kill anyone.
He used to show me a photo of himself posed with a broom on a B52. He's say, "That was my weapon; that, and my toolbox."

Here's to you, Dad.

thanks to all our vets and a good weekend to all of you.

Karen, here is to your dad from me. My husband is still flying one of those BUFF's.

CAC4

Wow, no kidding?
Guess they made things right back when, eh?

Tip of the glass and the hat to your husband, and may he stay safe.

Was what little you have read of ID written by opponents or proponents of it? Seems to me that if you were truly interested in making an informed and objective decision on the subject then you would give equal time researching both sides—reading what the proponents of each have to say about it—not just what the opponents say.

I daresay, I have.
Having given it a fair shake, it comes apart w/ridiculous ease.

Long, inappropriate post full of wishful thinking and self deception.

Instead of the fisking it deserves, I'll spend a moment thinking of all those who died due to man's inhumanity to man. Maybe one day this species will mature enough to live by the golden rule and reason.

Everyday I think about those who only wanted to serve their country but ended up caught in a tragic and duplicitous game serving big oil and MIC. Memorial day will be no different.

JCC

There are somewhat effective treatments available for obsessive/compulsive disorder. You might want to give them a try. Getting off the meth would help too!

jcc:
Has anything ever been written in support of ID that was NOT an xtian? Bingo, stupid idea from irrational humans.

Need coffee:
jcc:
Has anything ever been written in support of ID that was not FROM an xtian? Bingo, stupid idea from irrational humans.

"Remember the fallen, remember the callous disregard our leaders can have for the blood of their countrymen. Remember how easily even well intentioned leaders can feed their armed forces into the meat grinder of a war of folly."

This snippet brought tears to my eyes. The truth can be so painful.

KA responding to jcc admonition that one ought to read both sides..

I daresay, I have.

As have I, and as a result see ID as worse than nonsense.

remy:

As have I, and as a result see ID as worse than nonsense.

I predict the inevitable response will be: "You're listening to the wrong people!"
Standard stuff.

karen:

A. I wouldn't label a Memorial Day topic inane, yet that's the one you
chose to go off topic on, and practically at the beginning of the thread.

First, I didn’t specifically say the Memorial Day topic was inane, I said the vast majority of topics here were. Second, I didn’t choose this thread to respond to you in to make a point that this topic was inane either—I was looking for the one where you were currently posting so as to increase the odds of you seeing my overdue response to your questions.

Kinda crass, don't you think

No, because I in no way denigrated the meaning of the holiday. Besides, since when do you care about being “crass” or being off-topic in a thread?

in hindsight?

No. No regrets.

2. While we find our discussions interesting, I'm not sure how the others here feel about them, and I've been wondering for a while if we shouldn't take them to email.
Would you consider that?

In deference to your wishes, I’m open to taking it off-line but unless you’re becoming uncomfortable with continuing it here, I’m not so sure others haven’t benefited from our talks as well. But, like I said, I want to do what you’re most comfortable with.

jcc
I don't really care about being crass, but I try not to do it in other people's sandboxes. As for staying on topic, it's true, I'm very guilty of going off road all the time, but I do try to wait until the thread has run it's course. And I so't say that what I'm bringing up is more interesting.

I usually check the last posts each time I log on, then click on each thread and go back to the last post I recall reading from the last time I logged on, so chances are, I'll find your post wherever you put it.

In deference to your wishes, I’m open to taking it off-line but unless you’re becoming uncomfortable with continuing it here, I’m not so sure others haven’t benefited from our talks as well. But, like I said, I want to do what you’re most comfortable with.

I'm comfortable talking to you here. I'm a little uncomfortable with the lenght of our last many comments. We need to find a way to edit ourselves, I think.

Otherwise, I'll put it to the others and ask if anyone objects to our public conversation. There was some feedback to your long post, but I don't know if everyone would take the same attitude with me.

Be honest guys and gals, whaddaya think? Should jcc and I go private?

karen when you say go private do you mean like motel6.

reason

LOL
LOL
LOL
ROTFLMAO!!!!


No, email, silly, but thanks for the belly laugh! :D

Somebody has been reading this blog...

Is Atheism Just a Rant Against Religion?

"At times they've made statements that sound really problematic, and when Sam Harris says science must destroy religion, to me that sounds dangerously close to fundamentalism," Epstein said in an interview after the meeting. "What we need now is a voice that says, 'That is not all there is to atheism.' "

"Atheists don't really ask the question, what are the vital needs that religion meets? They give you the sense that religion is the enemy, which is absurd," said Ronald Aronson, professor of humanities at Wayne State University in Detroit.

"There are some questions we secularists have to answer: Who am I, what am I, what can I know? Unless we can answer these questions adequately for ourselves and for others, we can't expect people to even begin to be interested in living without God."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/25/AR2007052501953_2.html?hpid=sec-religion

The Washington Post is one of Dave's and the "bomb thrower's" most common sources...odd that this story has been ignored...or is it...?

karen your welcome.
phreedm they are good questions but do you need to believe to practice religion isn't religion more like lifestyle.i would suggest there are quite a few nonbelievers who are cultural christians even to the point of participating in a church.with church serving as a way to fellowship with people who believe in a certain lifestyle.

KA:

I predict the inevitable response will be: "You're listening to the wrong people!"
Standard stuff.

One reads the Buybull as well as what the ID'ers have to say, and the Buybull and what the blogs have to say, and the Buybull and still in any discussion we haven't got the correct information. It's a no win argument.

I am learning a lot from xian radio. It is fascinating (read frightening) how they are able to justify even the most heinous behaviour.

remy:

It's a no win argument.

That's contingent on whether you listen to engineers & geologists, or the actual experts, the biologists themselves.

KA:

That's contingent on whether you listen to engineers & geologists, or the actual experts, the biologists themselves.

I know. Can't say I have ever got a theist to listen or even read about evidence.

karen wondered,

Be honest guys and gals, whaddaya think? Should jcc and I go private?

Thanks for asking. I don't read the free-but-dumb comments at all, the (j)esy(c)hrist(c)ousin comments aren't any better and I dislike the way jcc twists the meaning of your comments, therefore, I may stop reading his also. On the other hand I love reading your comments karen, your honesty, reasoning and consideration is refreshing, so I wouldn't like it if your comments were missing. Jcc could learn much from you but, his brainwashing is such that I doubt he ever will. However, just by showing his willingness to participate on this blog, it is obvious that he would like to rid himself of the baggage of deception that envelopes his life.

I think the best solution would be if (j)esy(c)hrist(c)ousin emailed his comments to you. You could post his comments together with your well reasoned responses. That would save jcc from making such obvious mistakes without having your corrections available.

Another solution could be for jcc to ask you if it would be appropriate to make a comment. That way you could guide him in appropriate behavior. After several years he may even be able to make some decisions on his own without asking his god idea delution or maybe even without your help. Although he may never be able to function properly without your guidance.

One way or the other karen, jcc should be very grateful for the help that you have given and patience that you have shown towards him.

I hope everyone is having a great holiday and I'm glad to see Dave making a point to put things in perspective. I'm sure most of us know someone who has been or is still overseas in the thick of it.

karen,

I don't think you guys need to take all of your conversations offline, but this particular one might make sense. Only because it's so completely out of context at this point that it would be difficult for any of us to follow. To have a bunch of long posts continuing a forgotten conversation is kinda like digital noise pollution, you know?

Oh... and I've got a little inside joke at jcc's expense ;)
We just sold our house within a week of putting it on market for pretty much exactly what we were asking for (in a buyer's market!) - no praying required, Just a little elbow grease. Whoot!

Karen,

Unless it is an organized debate, I I never been in a conversation where the participants stayed on topic. Why people become concerned about this confuses me and has caused many sleepless nights:)

Then, I realized that I wasn't required to read everything posted. WOW, what a relief! I thought I had to give up my preedm but now I see the light.

You don't have to take your self off to an isolated chamber with jcc Karen. I can never finish his posts; I am too embarrassed for him. Now I just read your responses or nothing. Continue if you must, but he'll never learn the error of his ways.

I certainly don't want to be a pest nor argue...but every story has two sides...truth is negotiated somewhere in between. Harold Pinter spoke most eloquently when he received the Nobel Prize in literature (2005):
"Direct invasion of a sovereign state has never in fact been America's favoured method. In the main, it has preferred what it has described as 'low intensity conflict'. Low intensity conflict means that thousands of people die but slower than if you dropped a bomb on them in one fell swoop. It means that you infect the heart of the country, that you establish a malignant growth and watch the gangrene bloom. When the populace has been subdued - or beaten to death - the same thing - and your own friends, the military and the great corporations, sit comfortably in power, you go before the camera and say that democracy has prevailed."

Thanks to all for the input on the jcc/me matter. I appreciate all the kind words. Since I am weak in logic, I was hoping to keep the convo here, in the hopes that some of you would kick my ass if I made glaring errors in that regard.

JCC

I went back and reviewed your last comments and considered what some of my replies might be.
I couldn't find much that I could just ignore or not address, to shorten the comments.
I noticed that the subject matter was all over the map; even if we had a thread that matched some of it, more of it would be off topic.
I see that my efforts with you are encouraging you to be preachy, which is not desirable on this blog.

I think for THIS conversation, it would be beter if we took it to email. It would remain private and I would not report anything back here said between us in private.
I know you have hopes of saving me, but I remind you again, that's not going to happen.

That said, my email address is
kagee630@earthlink.net

I owe you a response, but you 'll have to send me an email, so I'll have your address. Give me a hint here as to part of it, so I can retreive it from my spam, unless you get one of those request to be added things.

karen:

Since I am weak in logic

I don’t see you as “weak in logic at all—I see you as poor in spirit which is not a bad thing.

I was hoping to keep the convo here, in the hopes that some of you would kick my ass if I made glaring errors in that regard.

Like you, my desire would be to continue on here—not out of selfish showmanship but precisely for the council of others and to be a continuing example of how a civil discourse between two people with such widely differing viewpoints is possible through mutual respect.

I noticed that the subject matter was all over the map

I believe that to be an unavoidable consequence of the nature of the beast.

I see that my efforts with you are encouraging you to be preachy, which is not desirable on this blog.

I’m not sure why you say that. The vast majority of my responses to you consist of no more than one or two sentences. Besides, being “preachy” seems to be the conditioned response to me from those who are, shall I say, less circumspect than you.

I know you have hopes of saving me, but I remind you again, that's not going to happen.

May I remind you that I have no power to do such—that is a matter that is solely between you and God.

I owe you a response, but you 'll have to send me an email, so I'll have your address. Give me a hint here as to part of it, so I can retreive it from my spam, unless you get one of those request to be added things.

Very well, but I think it’s important for us to continue on in one form or another here as well. I’ll be in touch shortly. Look for floyd somebody, and I’ll put “jcc” in the subject line.

Barbie

I am trying to understand what your post has to do with the original post or any subsequent comments and I can't. Nice quote but what in that quaote are you claim is fact? What argument do you see it supporting?

Sorry. Don't get it.

Karen

You are usually a hoot and I enjoy reading your insightful comments but this thing with JCC is just innane. JCC wants to be a believer. He wants to be deluded.

rainbows4dinosaurs:

Oh... and I've got a little inside joke at jcc's expense ;)

Sadly, I see it continues to be very important to you for you to think that you’re able to do that to someone else…

We just sold our house within a week of putting it on market for pretty much exactly what we were asking for (in a buyer's market!) - no praying required, Just a little elbow grease.

Wow, congratulations! Clearly, God is at work in your life, blessing you whether you choose to acknowledge Him or not. And may I suggest you try to restrain yourself the next time you cast the “cherry-picking” aspersion toward me in your dissatisfaction with my arguing techniques… Given your track record, I guess I shouldn’t expect you to bother with referencing the other major points of my prayerful house selling experience. Tu quoque, anyone?

R4D

JCC is right! God helped you sell your house to some fool that will be upsidedown in equity almost as soon as the contracts are signed. R4D, you are one of the choosen people.

my wish is that next memorial day we will be able to have fewer troops in iraq.

And may I suggest you try to restrain yourself the next time you cast the “cherry-picking” aspersion toward me in your dissatisfaction with my arguing techniques

Oh, honky please.
You cherry-pick w/such alacrity, I envision an entire metaphorical orchard.

Why on earth would the all powerful First Cause bless an atheist by acting as his invisible real estate agent???

Shouldn't He be dealing with all the thousand upon thousands of believers who actually need a place to live but can't find one? Why won't the old pr#*ck help them?

remy:

Why on earth would the all powerful First Cause bless an atheist by acting as his invisible real estate agent???

Probably 'cause its arms are worn out from all that smiting.
Remember, jcc holds that gawd wuvs us (that is, until we croak: then it's off to the darkness & the teeth gnashing for the lot of us).

What,

Just thinking about Memorial Day and Harold Pinter's speech, Memorial Day in light of Pinter's speech...mixed feelings...perhaps I was off topic...happens a lot in my world of nonlinear thought and meds :)

What

this thing with JCC is just innane. JCC wants to be a believer. He wants to be deluded.

I know some if not most consider my continued conversation with jcc to be inane, at best. That's one reason why I'm taking this particularly long-winded one off-blog.

I'm trying to be more tolerant and understanding with theists, and jcc actually helped me about a year ago by pissing me off to the point that I recognized some things about myself that were holding me back in my healing process. It didn't change my atheism, except maybe to solidify it even more.

It's also part of my healing process to ask questions about christianity that I could never get proper answers to in my youth. I don't expect anyone else to understand the reason, because as a studied adult, I can certainly answer the questions myself. But there is a child(children) within me who still demand(s) the one-on-one accountability.

Sometimes it's exhausting living with other people in my head.

Glad you usually think I'm a hoot though. ;)

Wow...has anyone been keeping up with the R4R? What a joke...first they claim thousands will attend their rally, and then in their parking directions, they explain they have "one" car to delivery drivers to the protest, 2 miles away....!!!

http://rallyforreason.com/Rally_4_Reason_files/PARKING.pdf

I'll tell you what's going to happen...it's going to rain and about 6 die hards are going to share 2 umbrellas while 2500 attendees are dry and comfortable enjoying the museum...I hope the protester's bullhorn is grounded...

I can't wait to see the pictures...they should be as revealing as the "No Atheists in Foxholes" pictures...oh wait...there weren't any pics posted...

To those that care I appreciate the kind words of my service to our country. Enjoy memorial day, that's the benefit of being free :)

phreedm

...they explain they have "one" car to delivery drivers to the protest...

If this is indicative of your reading comprehension skills, I think I can see why you view the bible as a credible source.

Phreedie,
If you want to see pictures of atheists in foxholes, go here: http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/welcome.php. There are a lot more as you click on the different pages. These are the faces of the brave men and women who put their lives on the line to protect you ass and your freedom to be the bloated toad that you are.

KA:
Yeah, I think he musta wore himself out. Perhaps he took an extended Holiday; time is of little consequence when your outside of it. Smiting is so Deuteronomy, doncha think. I am of the opinion that He has moved on to a less hands on approach as per Revalation:

21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and The abominable snowman, and murderers, and whoremunchers, and sorcerers, and idlers, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I'm also thinking of having all my teeth removed to avoid all that gnashing.

jcc

I don’t see you as “weak in logic at all—I see you as poor in spirit which is not a bad thing.

Ah, but I am weak in the logic dept., and freely admit it. My spirit is fine, though it's more uplifted when the Steelers are doing well, and I'm not having computer problems like I have been lately.

for the council of others and to be a continuing example of how a civil discourse between two people with such widely differing viewpoints is possible through mutual respect.

From the comments you get, I don't think you're succeeding in giving much council to others. We can continue the civil discourse. Let's just pick it up with future subjects and put the current convo to bed where it won't have others tripping over it.

I believe that to be an unavoidable consequence of the nature of the beast.

And I thought it was due to my propensity for going down bunny trails. ;)

The vast majority of my responses to you consist of no more than one or two sentences.

Yeah, but they're often of a proselytizing nature.

May I remind you that I have no power to do such—that is a matter that is solely between you and God.

Well then it's a definite no go, isn't it. Since Between me, god and the wall, there's just me and the wall.

Look for floyd somebody, and I’ll put “jcc” in the subject line.

floyd? Aieee!!!! Shades of my hated AP History teacher!!! THAT was a class where my lack of logic doomed me!
I'll look for you, but I can't access my email right now b/c of aforementioned computer glitches. Hopefully, my computer whiz son will have it back for me on the morrow.

remy

I'm also thinking of having all my teeth removed to avoid all that gnashing.

Could make your whoremunching an entirely different experience too. :)

CAB4reason,
Thanks for the link, I'll send them a photo of me in uniform.

My wish memorial day is that G.W. Bush and Dick Cheney will stand trial in the International Criminal Court and sentenced to death by hanging on the doorsteps of the Texas State capital. A fitting end to someone so unfit of empathy, intellect and decency.

The last part of my wish may be difficult to acheive but the first is doable.

remy:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and The abominable snowman, and murderers, and whoremunchers, and sorcerers, and idlers, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

From the Book of Bozo - The Crowned Clown of gawd.
Whoremunchers? Didn't your doctor tell you to watch what you eat?

I'm also thinking of having all my teeth removed to avoid all that gnashing.

I will always maintain that dental pain is a valid argument for atheism.
I call it the Argument from Dentistry.

Karen:

Could make your whoremunching an entirely different experience too

You're a naughty, naughty girl.
Your spanking will arrive shortly. ;)

Great, TXatheist. You can also add your name to the 500+ individual endorsers listed on the twelve pages here: http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/individualendorsers.php

I meant to say that you can see more pictures of atheists in foxholes as you click through the "individual endorsers" pages.

Karen

I just read one of JCC's rants. That is one twisted labyrinth in that fella's brain. I don't think he wants to find the way out. You might just consider letting him be. He has obviously grown comfortable wondering within that maze and I think he would turn tail and run if he saw daylight breaking through his cavernous mind.

"precisely for the council of others"

Don't waste your breath for my sake. I'd rather hear fingernails on a blackboard.

Hmmm...I don't want to say I told you so...but...

PETERSBURG, Ky. – Blessed were the protestors, for without them, the Creation Museum would not have been so big, Answers in Genesis leader Ken Ham said before the controversial building’s ribbon cutting today.

“When I travel around, and you see a facility like this, a lot of artwork went into this,” Kentucky Commerce Secretary George Ward said before the ribbon-cutting. “Obviously, the history’s there. On the tourism side, it’s going to be a great complement to what we have at Big Bone Lick State Park.

“I envisioned when I was here (a year ago) that every Christian school – probably in the country – is going to have a field trip to the Creation Museum.” Ward said, “And we’re really happy to have those visitors.”

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070526/NEWS01/305260017/1056/COL02

From the same article as phreedm quotes

Circling overhead, an airplane working for protestors pulled a banner with the message: “Thou Shalt Not Lie.”

Excellent touch.

phreedm

Hmmm...I don't want to say I told you so...but...

LOL, like hell you don't! You should have that plane with the banner, "Thou Shalt Not Lie" flying in circles around you.

This post is to respond to an earlier post by What

What's post is:



R4D

JCC is right! God helped you sell your house to some fool that will be upsidedown in equity almost as soon as the contracts are signed. R4D, you are one of the choosen people.



So funny....so true....and so sad

This memorial day I say to those holding the moral compass to please drop it...

thank you

phreedm...you'll see my name on atheists in foxholes...semper fi!!

oh by the way....my clock face(clock bought thru skeptic magazine) says "religion is bullshit"...and it's never wrong...it's atomic

Phreedy revels in the building of a monument to his ignorance. There are going to be con-men (and women) lining up outside that "museum" to get a crack and the gullibility that flows through its doors.

Memorial Day... to me it's a day to remember loved ones lost.

Last weekend my brother-in-law (wife's brother) was killed in a plane crash in South Dakota. He was my close friend and was an important part of my fine art career — as well as my brother-in-law.

I suppose I'll use this thread to say how deeply I will miss him.

DVanWechel

I am sorry for your loss. It sounds like your brother-in-law was a true friend.

Thank you all for the good Memorial Day comments. I just left the Ventura, Calif. VFW Hall. We had WW2 Vets, Korean Vets, Vietnam Vets, and a couple of Gulf War Vets. It was very heartwarming.

Oh, I'm another member of Atheists in Foxholes. Does that make 2 of us on the whole planet? Check my dogtags under religion. They read "None".

We veterans don't have religious problems among us. We all feel we're just lucky to be here.

Richard Pratt
U>S> Army Vietnam, 1967-1968

DVanWechel

I am so sorry about the loss of your brother-in-law and friend. It is a loss on many levels for you; it seems he touched your life in many ways.
My condolences also to your wife at this very sad time.
I hope you both have many great memories of this man whom you loved.

jcc

Sadly, I see it continues to be very important to you for you to think that you’re able to do that to someone else…

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about - do what exactly? Make a joke? I thought it was funny, and your touchy response makes it even funnier. Lighten up.

Wow, congratulations!

Why, thank you.

Clearly, God is at work in your life, blessing you whether you choose to acknowledge Him or not.

Well then I would say that God's priorities are completely out of wack. Do me a favor, give 'Him' a call and let him know about the billions of people in this world who don't even have roofs over their heads. Good grief.

And may I suggest you try to restrain yourself the next time you cast the “cherry-picking” aspersion toward me in your dissatisfaction with my arguing techniques… Given your track record, I guess I shouldn’t expect you to bother with referencing the other major points of my prayerful house selling experience. Tu quoque, anyone?

I wasn't consciously cherry picking, nor was I accusing you of the same (this time.) I can't say I remember all the finer points of your Holy House Selling Experience. I only remember laughing my ass off at the time while also thinking it to be about the shallowest example of a supposed answered prayer that I had ever heard. Very American Evangelical though - about as deep and edifying as a trip to the shopping mall.

DVan, I'm so sorry. That sucks. I don't know the pain, but I feel deeply sorry.

rainbows, congrats on selling your place! I would love to see you face to face sometime. Remember, the weekend after halloween we have a kick ass party if you want to make an excuse to come out. That goes for all the good people here. I love halloween and would love for all the locals to come out. Dave, that means you too! Freakgirl and Geekboy have been good enough to come out. They are the greatest of friends to us. I just feel bad that I haven't been as good to them as they have been to us. I love them. KA, that goes for you too... I need to get up with you (using a Raleigh expression) and let you know what's up. No good excuse for not getting back to you. Sometimes I have my head so far up my own ass I can't seem to get back to anyone.

r4d
Yes, congrats on selling the house!
(I was being a dumb blond and thought you actually were just making a joke about the whole thing.)

So did the other end of the deal go terrificly as well? You know, the part where you buy your dream house at a great price?

Are you moving out of the area or just out of the neighborhood?

Spanders

rainbows, congrats on selling your place! I would love to see you face to face sometime

Thanks dude. Yeah, I hope to get us back east sometime in the near future. Of course, you're always welcome to come up and kick it in Portland for a week or two!

Karen

So did the other end of the deal go terrificly as well? You know, the part where you buy your dream house at a great price?

Ha! Yeah that's the trickier part.

Actually, at the moment we're shacking up in my mom and stepfather's old house in the 'burbs. The original plan was that we would put our equity in the bank and just live here for a year or two until my wife could rejoin the work force. Well, silly us, we didn't realize that this place is in an entirely different school district which means that next year our kids won't be able to go to the charter schools we busted our butts to get them into. Seeing as keeping the kids in their awesome schools is more important to us than saving up for some "dream house," we're going to try and get a place back in town before September hits.

It's going to be interesting - we can really only afford around 250K and anything decent in P-town is at least 50K more. But we have a killer agent and a whole fleet of friends and family on the look out for us. It's going to be fine - just need to re-boot our perspective. I didn't really want to live in the 'burbs anyway! LOL

Baby steps, baby.

DVanWechel,

I just saw your post. My deepest condolences to you and your family. That is a difficult loss indeed.

R4D

It's going to be interesting - we can really only afford around 250K and anything decent in P-town is at least 50K more.

With rising supply and waning demand in the housing market you may be able to close that 50K gap very soon. I have not specifically been following the P-town (or neighboring areas) market but I wouldn't be surprised if it is just another six months until the homes you are looking at come into your price range.

Its going to get ugly out there.

spanders:
No worries. I'm a workin' man again. Feels good, too.

DVan:
Deepest condolences on your loss, my friend.

Comment from: Richard

We veterans don't have religious problems among us. We all feel we're just lucky to be here.

Now if only AA and the ACLU could live by such standards...

I keep driving by my local church that has one of those ever-changing signs out front. It currently says

God bless those troops who gave their lives.

While I agree with the sentiment irrespective of the god part, I wonder whether these troops actually gave their lives - or had their lives taken from them.

Surely one that willingly gives their life in a armed struggle (unless as the lesser choice of two evils) is better known by the name martyr?

Should we not be remembering the fallen as those who were wrenched from their lives, their families, their friends, their futures, and their dreams? The vast majority, it seems to me, did not "give" their lives, but fought tooth and nail to maintain and better their (and our) lives.

HZ
Not to take anything away from the troops, but it would have been more honest to say : "God bless the troops who are shooting the shit out of Iraqis right now, be they soldiers or collateral citizens.."

Karen, R4D, Spanders, What, KA, and anyone else who posted,

Thanks for all of your kind words.

Karen,

Actually I think the sentiment is reserved or those US troops that are on the receiving end of the ordinance. The people doing the killing don't seem to be worthy of our thoughts at this time, and neither do those "giving" their lives that happen not to be in a US (or coalition partner) uniform.

Like I said previously, the sentiment of this day is really aimed at past conflicts. The older the conflict, the more glorious its participants' seem.

phree
if they did that then we would all have to live by the laws of christianity and our kids would have to pray christian prayers in schools. I dont think so you tell the Christains to stop pushing their beliefs on all americans and the ACLU andAA will stop its that simple !!!! Without them everyone who is not a christain in this nation will be second class citizens !!!!

rainbows4dinosaurs:

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about

Uh huh, riiiight.

do what exactly? Make a joke?

You really do suck at feigning innocence. Did you honestly think you’d fooled anybody with that? You’re as transparent as you are self-absorbed.

I thought it was funny, and your touchy response makes it even funnier.

I have no doubt you did…little things for little people. You probably get a kick out of “making jokes” at your kids’ expense as well.

Lighten up.

I will when you grow up.

I wasn't consciously cherry picking

Oh, of course not. It was a completely innocent slip of the mind.

I can't say I remember all the finer points of your Holy House Selling Experience. I only remember laughing my ass off at the time while also thinking it to be about the shallowest example of a supposed answered prayer that I had ever heard.

Yeah, and I guess if I had the same compassion your atheism has given you I would’ve been laughing hysterically at you instead of praying for your sorry rear after your melodramatic asthmatic episode that you apparently couldn’t wait to tell the world about some months back.

Very American Evangelical though - about as deep and edifying as a trip to the shopping mall.

And given that you’re just an admitted product of your environment who, by definition, cannot be anything more than the sum of your obviously limited experiences, what you write here is quite indicative of how painfully narcissistic and shallow you’ve chosen to be. How very atheistic.

Once again, I’ve grown tired of your snotty arrogance. I try to engage you on an intellectual level but you consistently cannot control your tendency to be insulting. You think a depersonalized blog is a great place to strut your over-inflated self image by trying to make jokes at other’s expense. But the sad fact is, you’ve painted quite a telling portrait of yourself. You think your mighty intellect can somehow compensate for your puny stature; that your acerbic wit can cover for your frail, asthmatic constitution and that you can get other’s to think more highly of you by how easily you think you can insult your adversaries. Knowing what I do of your personal history, it’s obvious that you, like virtually every other atheist here, still carry a lot of bitterness and disappointment toward God for putting you through circumstances that you couldn’t control in your past. You could kick yourself for once having believed, but because He didn’t fulfill your expectations of what you thought a deity should be like, you dismiss Him as false and look for every opportunity to incur your infantile wrath on those who have a faith you were incapable of committing to. Like Krystalline Apostate, I don’t dislike you—it’s your behavior I take issue with. And like him also, I pity you because you’ve had to build such an emotional wall around your feelings to protect yourself from being hurt the way you let yourself be hurt before. Whether you admit it or not, you still got a lot of problems you haven’t dealt with. It’s obvious by the way you treat those you feel “superior” to. It’s people like you who insist on learning the hard way that what comes around, sooner or later, goes around. It’s not a matter of if, but when that your mouth will get you in a situation that will require someone’s mercy to get you out of. I just pray that you don’t stupidly jeopardize your wife or kids safety when that happens.

There is no reason with the superstitious people it seems....

I think superstition will become less in the US as the boomer's croak...

so....lets pray science doesnt work to fast towards immortality...

piece

jcc:

And like him also, I pity you because you’ve had to build such an emotional wall around your feelings to protect yourself from being hurt the way you let yourself be hurt before.

Excuse me, Herr Kamp Kounselor, I can't speak for r4d, but you lack a complete fucking clue about me.
I wasn't 'hurt' by a religious person, nor do I expect some ridiculous bullshit about your deity.
I dislike you despite your religious inclination.
You're a pompous, self-absorbed right-wing mouthpiece, w/an overweaning urge to get everyone else to conform to your asinine party line.
Let's tack on judgmental, arrogant, & 'holier-than-thou', w/an obsession that borders on compulsion.
Misinformed & self-righteous, since we're throwing around adjectives.
If you're representative of your ass-backwards religion, no thanks: I'll take the 'outer darkness' & 'gnashing of teeth'.
Oh, that's right: it's a loada crap, so no worries.

jcc,

Well I guess the gloves are really coming off this time, aren't they?

You really do suck at feigning innocence. Did you honestly think you’d fooled anybody with that? You’re as transparent as you are self-absorbed.

Why would I be trying to get away with something here? I still don't know what you were getting at. Is it that you think I'm deliberately trying to provoke a response out of your silly ass? That I'm out to hurt your feelings? (Are real-estate prayers that sensitive an issue?) Honestly, I didn't expect you to lose your fracking marbles. If it had been me on the other end I wouldn't have considered it worth a response - my christian friends and I poke fun at each other all the time and it's no big deal. I guess I should know by now that I'm dealing with a complete lunatic.

I have no doubt you did…little things for little people. You probably get a kick out of “making jokes” at your kids’ expense as well.

And you seem to really enjoy bringing my kids into the discussion. Have I ever once accused you of being a bad parent? Just who is the bigger man here? I'll let the audience decide that one.

Oh, of course not. It was a completely innocent slip of the mind.

Whatever. Just what could I have left out that would make a difference? Blinding lights? Tongues of flame? All I remember is that somehow the conversation turned to proofs of the validity of prayer and you chose to cite what seemed to me a rather mundane experience selling your house. Not a story about a miraculous cure or a story about surviving a week lost in the forest or even a story about drawing strength during a time of loss... nope, just selling a house. Perhaps it's just my post-punk anti-materialistic tendencies, but I couldn't help but find that completely inane and trivial. And I doubt I was the only one - that sort of 'witnessing' invites ridicule and you should know it.

Yeah, and I guess if I had the same compassion your atheism has given you I would’ve been laughing hysterically at you instead of praying for your sorry rear after your melodramatic asthmatic episode that you apparently couldn’t wait to tell the world about some months back.

First of all, I would never laugh at the prospect of you or any of your loved ones getting hurt. Or is that what you are accusing me of deliberately leaving out? Were you and your family left homeless for time or something like that? I find it hard to imagine that I would forget such a dramatic detail, but perhaps I did and if so then I certainly am sorry. Second of all, to trivialize my experience last year by accusing me of melodrama and once again playing the 'R4D is just an arrogant narcissist' card only causes me to suspect that you are nothing but a big phony. For how can you expect me to take the idea of you praying for my well being seriously when you admit to believing my story was nothing more than an exaggerated charade I concocted to grab attention?

And given that you’re just an admitted product of your environment who, by definition, cannot be anything more than the sum of your obviously limited experiences, what you write here is quite indicative of how painfully narcissistic and shallow you’ve chosen to be. How very atheistic.

So a philosophy that, by your narrow understanding, teaches that we are nothing more than mud soup and therefor 'nothing matters at all' must somehow lead directly to shallow narcism? Yeah, jcc, that makes a whole lot of sense. Must I remind you that it is you who can't help but lurk around on an atheist blog waiting for another perfect opportunity to pull out the bullhorn and begin moralizing us to death? My guess is that a person would have to think pretty darn highly of himself to have such a compulsion.

Once again, I’ve grown tired of your snotty arrogance. I try to engage you on an intellectual level but