NoGodBlog.com

Two more years and my daughter and I will be Camp Quest Campers. I can't wait!

I went to the Camp Quest website ans saw that the kids participate in "activities that teach them about freethought and humanist principles." I don't have any kids, but honestly I don't think I'd want my kids to have to deal with anything so heavy as philosophy and ethics on their summer vacation. I'd rather they just have some fun with the canoeing and campfires and such. I'm sure there's plenty of that too... but I'm extremely wary of any group of adults with a strong ideology trying to influence kids in a setting where they literally can't get away from it. Even if it's an ideology I (mostly) agree with.

Dave, maybe you can tell us, what sort of "freethought activities" do they do at Camp Quest? I'm also curious, suppose a religious parent wants to sign their kids up. Would they be accepted?

Apologies, **OFF TOPIC**

Spanders, (et al)

Here is a radio interview with Bishop Spong (38min.). If the link doesn't work go to CBC pod casts and the program entitled Tapestry. Here is a theist who one can admire.

http://www.cbc.ca/podcasting/pastpodcasts.html?26#ref26

WOOHOO! Thread was derailed by the third post. That has to be some sort of record. Apparently, remy didn't like the content of the thread so he/she had to make it about what he/she wanted to talk about. WAY TO GO!

thanks remy, I'll check it out!

wisconsinatheist, knowing remy, it wasn't an intentional derailment.

.... maybe you can tell us, what sort of "freethought activities" do they do at Camp Quest? I'm also curious, suppose a religious parent wants to sign their kids up. Would they be accepted?

At CQ Ohio (and I'd imagine at most of the other camps as well) the freethought acivities are fairly short and/or incorporated into other activities. We have "Famous Freethinkers", where kids listen to a three to five minute description of a freethinker from history after meals. We try to encourage various problem solving and rational thinking exercises within other exercise. It's not like school--- it's like summer camp, but with a freethought twist.

Religious families can and have send campers to CQ, though it's been a pretty rare request.

And, to clarify another statement you made earlier in your post, we're definitely less about "influence" and more about "information."

the whole concept of religion is to do one's thinking them, from as early in childhood as possible..."give me the boy and i'll give you the man"...to quote the jesuits. Thus i wouldn't think a religious family would want any camp to teach independant thinking to their child, undoing years of brainwashing...the christian is the pencil without an eraser..."it is written"....anyway, isn't there any safe haven from jesus freaks and hitler youths?

wisconsinatheist,
And just how do you think I ought communicate something that I know Spanders would be interested in?

AND, how is the thread derailed? You are not required to follow every post. I would submit that you're complaint is what has now derailed the thread.

Didn't I read something somewhere about a bunch of teachers in Virginia freaking out because they were required to hand out Camp Quest brochures along with all the Boy Scout and 4H stuff?

Ha. Here it is - it was from WorldNut:

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1192,Teachers-rebel-over-atheism-promotion,Bob-Unruh-WorldNetDailycom

camp quest=family values.i think its great that ethics are taught in a family friendly format.heck our society could use a big dose of ethics.i hope all who attend have a great time.
ps be careful about ticks.

Camp Quest sounds like a wonderful alternative to the "Jesus Camp"/Vacation Bible Schools down here in Texas...I don't have the $$$ right now but will consider it for my nine-year-old next year. Vacation Bible Schools offer free transportation, lunch, prayer and indoctrination to inner city kids...I worked in one several summers ago teaching arts/crafts but could not stand the creepy Jesus sing-alongs...and being an atheist didn't help much so I pretended to be Baptist :)

Barbiebrains worked at vacation bible school now she has a nine yr old.
Barbie did you get some of that old time religion, you weren't yelling out jesus,jesus now were you.

Reason,
You got me there...Yes, I was yelling out jesus, jesus, jesus and have been known to speak in tongues...my daughter came before my conversion...I'm a redneck mother, gun-rack and all...LOL!

Barbie

"and being an atheist didn't help much so I pretended to be Baptist :)"

That's funny :). How did it go? Ever pretend to be LDS? I tried once but my lack of alcohol consumption gave me away.

I have been wondering how a xian defines the word "lie". Is it different from how an atheist defines the word? If a xian knows there is no factual evidence for the existence of a gawd yet chooses to believe that one does exist are they lying? To themselves? What if they tell others that one exists wouldn't they surely be lying then? In my dictionary they would be. So is it possible to be an evangelical xian that recognizes their religion is purely a belief or faith and not simultaneously break one of their commandments?

What:

Lying depends on truth, and any cogent idea of truth pretty much goes out the window whenever faith is involved.

Luckily most religious people don't take their faith as seriously as they might, and they're able to reason adequately about truth and honesty, for the most part anyway (of course, we are all fallible in that respect though).

I think it's when people really take the idea of faith seriously that ideas like "lie", "honesty", and "truth" lose all meaning. If people realized this, they'd see how absurd faith really is.

So yeah... You've isolated yet another contradiction that arises from faith. Add it to the pile!

What,
I have been a member of several 12-step programs and numerous religious affilitations plus a UFO cult that insisted on making me watch reruns of Knight Rider while drinking cases of Tab...Pretending to be a Baptist was the hardest act I've ever had to put on...much tougher than the UFO-cult schtick...It went over badly, I got into it with the church ladies and we almost came to blows...LOL!
As to religious "truth", I don't think religious people are necessarily "lying"...I think it is role-playing, a performance of sorts (heck, after a while even I enjoyed being a fake-Baptist), and all good actors become their character...their truth/performance is always negotiated. :)

Barbie

Do you take on these roles in a professional capacity as, for example, a writer/reporter? This sounds interesting!

Apple

I think it's when people really take the idea of faith seriously that ideas like "lie", "honesty", and "truth" lose all meaning.

... and innate empathy gives way to contrived morality.

Barbie

Yes the "role playing" aspect of religion is very important and not talked about enough.

"Camp Quest was specifically designed for children of agnostics,atheists, brights, freethinkers, humanists, Unitarians, or whatever terms might be applied to those who maintain a naturalistic, not supernaturalistic, world view."

Almost sounds like the inquisition. Why not make it available to all, regardless of faith? Why be exclusive? I'm not an Atheist, but I think it would be smarter for your movement to say everyone is welcome, and simply explain that all classes/projects etc., are coming from a naturalistic framework and that a naturalistic framework will be advanced. If you want to be "evangelistic" in your Atheism, you shouldn't act so exclusive to those you hope to reach, unless you are afraid of being overpowered by a group of believers signing up. wouldn't you like (and hope) to sign-up believers to show (educate) them your outlook?

...Bernie of FreeGoodNews.com

bdehler

Well I wouldn't send my children to CQ of the type you suggest. I want to expose my children to the nondeluded members of our society. If I want to expose them to the religiously deluded I could do that anywhere, anytime, and I wouldn't have to pay for it. Get it?

What gives you the idea that this is about evangelism anyhow? It's about getting away from it! Seriously man, how could you type such nonsense let alone think it.

Hey, does CQ hire or allow college-aged kids to volunteer as camp councelors? My son will turn 18 this Fall.

bdehler:

Almost sounds like the inquisition.

Bar the blood & screaming. Oh, & the persecution, the pointing fingers, blood libel, all sorts of things.
Ridiculous comment, really.

Why not make it available to all, regardless of faith?

Maybe you can cough up some proof that religious are turned away at the door?

Why be exclusive?

See above.

I'm not an Atheist, but I think it would be smarter for your movement to say everyone is welcome, and simply explain that all classes/projects etc., are coming from a naturalistic framework and that a naturalistic framework will be advanced.

Newsflash: All ARE welcome. Perhaps not at this camp, but into the 'fold', so to speak.

If you want to be "evangelistic" in your Atheism, you shouldn't act so exclusive to those you hope to reach, unless you are afraid of being overpowered by a group of believers signing up.

Likewise, I'd feel terribly out of place at a Lamaze class, or a woman's retreat, or joining a children's summer camp (being a grown man & all).

wouldn't you like (and hope) to sign-up believers to show (educate) them your outlook?

As evidenced by your poorly thought-out synopses on your website, & after a few years of debating you & yours, education comes hard to the religious.
I'd suggest you do a LOT more research on atheism, prior to pronouncing on the subject again.

*Off topic*

Speaking of children, here is an article I just found. I've been lurking here for a while and thought that the rationale for the interpretation of the results mirrors a lot of what I've seen in other topics posted, meaning "I'll pay attention only to the parts that support what I believe."

http://www.garageband.com/artist/
SunMostHigh

Comment from: Apple_Christmas

I went to the Camp Quest website ans saw that the kids participate in "activities that teach them about freethought and humanist principles." I don't have any kids, but honestly I don't think I'd want my kids to have to deal with anything so heavy as philosophy and ethics on their summer vacation.

CQ is indoctrination...pure and simple. And anyone who denies that is...(what was that question?)...lying...

And here's something that's sure to give some heartburn...

Polls: Most believe Bible as God's word

http://washtimes.com/national/20070529-111815-7952r.htm

And one more thing...an atheist utopia?

Look up "Liberal, Missouri"...

Society without God simply doesn't work...

CAB4reason,

Hey, does CQ hire or allow college-aged kids to volunteer as camp councelors? My son will turn 18 this Fall.

We accept volunteer staff age 18 and up, though different camps have different staffing needs. Your son should go to www.camp-quest.org, chose the camps that he's interest in, and contact them directly. Being on staff is a ridiculously fun experience-- I think we have at least as much fun as the campers.

KA,

Maybe you can cough up some proof that religious are turned away at the door?

I wouldn't imagine he can... 'cause they aren't. Yes, we're mainly a haven for various sorts of freethinkers, but we don't exclude children from religious families from attending, on the few occasions they apply to do so.

phreedm,

CQ is indoctrination...pure and simple.

Just using the "i-word" doesn't make it so. Reasons?

All societies are without god! He doesn't exist!

But if you are referring to the societies in which a majority of the population believes in a deity (USA) vs societies in which a majority of the population is secular (Sweden, Japan, etc.) then you need to check the statistics. More religious societies FAR outnumber secular societies in ALL levels of crime (murder, rape, theft, etc.)

Phreedm, you are a waste of organs.

Phreeidiot

Why would I care that all the sheep think the bible is gods word actually makes me feel better that I do nto agree with the majority of idiots in this world. Thanks for the reassurance. Dont you have to catch up to the flock you SHEEP.One day you should try thinking on your own instead of a book doing it for you.

phreedm you silly person...i realize that you are a plant here, as your sweeping statements and their little examples are not the ideas of anyone with anything really to say...fess up...which atheist group put you up to this??...come on ...you know you want to come clean so you can sleep better...don't live the lie any longer, it isn't healthy...spill the beans...

My son is only 3 but everyone I know that attended CQ has said it's great.

there is a difference between teaching WHAT to think and HOW to think...reason is what indoctrination steals; rationalism(not rationalising) and freethought give it back.If phreedm can give an example to the contrary as concerns camp quest...i'll change my opinion. IT'S SHOWTIME!

Someone named "What" wrote:
"Well I wouldn't send my children to CQ of the type you suggest. I want to expose my children to the nondeluded members of our society. If I want to expose them to the religiously deluded I could do that anywhere, anytime, and I wouldn't have to pay for it. Get it?"

You didn't read my comment clearly. I said the organizers and presenters could all be of the naturalistic mindset and purpose, why then limit participants based on their belief? Why give a religious test for those who want to sign-up and attend and learn from your wisdom? Why isn't it your very hope to reach those who are "wrong"? You only want to create a program for those who already have the belief? That is what the original post said:

"Camp Quest was specifically designed for children of agnostics,atheists, brights, freethinkers, humanists, Unitarians, or whatever terms might be applied to those who maintain a naturalistic, not supernaturalistic, world view."

...Bernie of FreeGoodNews.com

Krystalline said:
"Likewise, I'd feel terribly out of place at a Lamaze class, or a woman's retreat, or joining a children's summer camp (being a grown man & all)."

You wouldn't be out of place at a Lamaze class if your spouse was in it; you do it as a couple. A women's retreat is for developing women, so of course a man shouldn't go. A children's camp is for kids, so of course a man shouldn't go.

However, if the camp, as yours, is primarily for education, then I'd think your target should be the most "uneducated." Instead, you have the target as those who already have the belief. Think about it- I'm actually giving you friendly advice so you can be more effective at your agenda. Why? Because I'm not worried. I think education is a good thing. I think seeking truth is a good thing. I think comunication among those who think differently is a good thing.

...Bernie of FreeGoodNews.com

APBio said:
"But if you are referring to the societies in which a majority of the population believes in a deity (USA) vs societies in which a majority of the population is secular (Sweden, Japan, etc.) then you need to check the statistics. More religious societies FAR outnumber secular societies in ALL levels of crime (murder, rape, theft, etc.)"

Sweden and Japan are not secular any more than America is. Here is their population belief:

Sweden:
Lutheran 87%, other (includes Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Muslim, Jewish, and Buddhist) 13%

Japan:
Observe both Shinto and Buddhist 84%, other 16% (including Christian 0.7%)

Sources:

Sweden:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sw.html

Japan:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ja.html

...Bernie of FreeGoodNews.com

bdehler

There is no religious test for attending Camp Quest. If you have children and you would like them to attend then I am sure the organizers would have no problem with that. But you will have to sign a registration form containing the following statement:

I understand that Camp Quest presents atheism, agnosticism, humanism, skepticism and other naturalistic worldviews as positive and viable with rich traditions and role models. I am aware that Camp Quest encourages children to take their time investigating the world, and come to their own conclusions and advocates challenging assumptions and thinking for oneself. I understand that at Camp Quest my child may talk about the fact that others in the world may disagree and how important it is for all of us to be able to live together in a pluralistic society. I understand that Camp Quest strives to offer children tools for getting along with others while being true to their own ideas.

"there are three kinds of lies:lies,damned lies, and statistics"....benjamin disraeli or mark twain or somebody else.So some person believes that sweden and iran are both religious countries...one is not more "secular" than the other...based on numbers?????? I just can't take this kind of (il)logic...i need a toke ..right now

bdehler

You said that I did not clearly read your comment then you post a reiteration showing that I did read it clearly. Of course this is level of clarity of thought that I expect from xians that we must deal with daily. It's nice to give the kids a break from it ... dont' you think?

Phreedy

Read Imaskeptic's reply. He nicely made clear that indoctrination is the opposite of what is done at QC. It is a well known tactic of the religious to change the accepted meaning of words to fit their arguments.

Someone called "What" said:
"Well I wouldn't send my children to CQ of the type you suggest."

Why not? Did I suggest a change in content? No. The only suggestion I made was that it should be open to participants of any faith. I don't think you understood that; that's why I said you didn't read my comment clearly.

Apparently it is open to all children, and the original quote from the announcements at the start of this thread was misleading. Apparently, the program was designed for the kids of naturalists, but enrollment is not limited to them (per rainbows4dinosaurs's post).

By the way, I think it is an excellent outreach to do for your group.

Some people think that "learning" and "fun" are mutually exclusive; but I think it's good to instill the "love of learning" into kids, and show them the beauty of creation.

...Bernie of FreeGoodNews.com

What,
I am neither a writer nor a reporter...just a public school teacher (elementary/pre-K) working towards my masters in library science...My fascination with religion stems from a morbid sense of humor, I have no problem joining the ranks/taking a baptism in order to get photographs and material...Baptist churches are a source of entertainment...I am constantly in search of the religious kitsch... Velvet Jesus statuettes, anyone?:)

bdehler all those kids have to do is look at the nature around them and they will see the beauty of natural creation.
phreedm you are a heretic and blasphemer.would a god of love want his servant to speak in his name as you do.do you ever have anything positive to say to or about atheists.i can respect a true christian because there is love in their hearts but your faith is hollow.you are one of the many who pretend to be christian.your christianity is nothing more than an insurance policy.

bdehler:

You wouldn't be out of place at a Lamaze class if your spouse was in it; you do it as a couple.

I meant going there alone - sorry, wasn't clear.

However, if the camp, as yours, is primarily for education, then I'd think your target should be the most "uneducated." Instead, you have the target as those who already have the belief. Think about it- I'm actually giving you friendly advice so you can be more effective at your agenda. Why? Because I'm not worried. I think education is a good thing. I think seeking truth is a good thing. I think comunication among those who think differently is a good thing.

rainbows already addressed most of that.
Note that atheism is a lack of belief, not really a belief system per se.

phreedm i came down hard on you not because i think your a bad person but because you know better.you know as well as i do that the powers that be don't give a hoot what atheists or conservative christians think.we just have to try and be moral people and encourage each other to be good people.drugs flood our society kids exposed to sex, worship of money.atheists and christians don't need to fight each other.

Barbie

Well I hope you write about your adventures. The Jesus-of-the-Week site would happen to be yours would it? If fot have you seen it at:

http://www.jesusoftheweek.com/

Krystalline said:
"Note that atheism is a lack of belief, not really a belief system per se."

I disagree. I've been listening to quite a few Atheist podcasts. Technically, what you say may be true. Practically, however, I think the "bold Atheists" (those most vocal) have a strong "belief" (since it can't be proved either way) that there is no God.

There's a big difference between "lack of a belief" and "belief that there is no God." In fact, I would say that it is virtually impossible to have a "lack of belief." Everyone has a belief, whether it is in a God, no god(s), etc. I don't believe there is any such thing as a "null" belief, except for the person who is undecided. I think very few are undecided. I think most are decided, but maybe don't want to admit it.

I know a person who was a Christian, then left the faith. This person said (unknowingly falsely) that they no longer have a belief. However, in more discussion and follow-up, it became evident that this person does have a belief system, and it could be called "secular humanism." They agreed when faced with this information.

My point: I think it is an error if someone goes around thinking they "have no beliefs." Maybe a person gets that way because they just dumped a belief system that they were defending, and don't want to have to go through that again. However, to grow, I think one must always test their belief system, as a matter of maturity. We all start at different places, but if we love the truth and seek it, we should all eventually get to the same place.

...Bernie of FreeGoodNews.com

oh,please!!! me asking you to prove that your god exists...then waiting patiently while you fail to do so, does not mean i practice a religion!!! me stating there are no flying pigs does not mean i am in a no-flying-pig religion!!! this line of reasoning is just silly(but not funny)

Practically, however, I think the "bold Atheists" (those most vocal) have a strong "belief" (since it can't be proved either way) that there is no God.

As a christian who has been on this blog, I can tell you my experience is that "bold atheists" are the ones who are tired of having theism thrust upon them. I think they "believe" they are tired of people using flimsy rhetoric with them. Over the last two years, I've listened on this blog and have found that we, as christians, have some work to do on ourselves before we start telling atheists that their ideas are the same as our beliefs. Faith and reason are different things. Don't blur them. I have faith their is a god, but I don't equate that to someone reasoning that if god cannot be proven (or even ideas about a loving god can be proven) then god does not exist.

A belief system is different than secular humanism. Simply because you see the world through a belief system (much like I do) doesn't mean you should force your own understanding of life on other people. Listen before you come to conclusions. Simply because you have a conversation with one person one time about atheism does not mean you have it all neatly tied up.

I too think one must test their faith to grow. Equating atheism to faith is false, so your point should be more about yourself and other christians than atheists. One should also listen before making assumptions so that their intellect and empathy can grow.

their is a god = there is a god

I think Atheism is a belief system, and can be called a religion, because it touches on religious matters. For example, there is nothing religious about math, because 2+2 = 4 no matter what your belief (or non-belief) is in God. However, when one asks a question "Is there life after death," that is a religious question. Math has no concern or viewpoint, so it is not religious. Neither does the sport of football. Atheists, who have an answer, have their religious answer. If they say nothing happens, your dead, that's it, that's a religious statement. It directly is in opposition to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, etc., the other religions. If Atheism didn't have a religious component, it wouldn't care about the question or have an answer, like math or football. But the vocal Atheists I hear (Dawkins, Harris) do have a position, and it is an important issue to them. They also have the urge to debate anyone with a contrary opinion as to the state after death, if the topic comes up. How could something be "not religious" when it cares so deeply about religious issues and questions? Think about it.

If you think you have no religion, as if there is some kind of neutral unbiased position on religious matters, I think you are likely deceived. And what you think happens (or doesn't happen) in the next life has a great impact on how you live this life. I think I can quote you the preceding sentence by Atheist Sam Harris from his book (I think I remember him writing it).

,,,Bernie of FreeGoodNews.com

bdehler,
As well as being deluded, and emersed in wishfull thinking, you obviously don't know the difference between religion and philosophy?

Sorry, should read, 'immersed'

Bernie:
Not this old saw again.

For example, there is nothing religious about math, because 2+2 = 4 no matter what your belief (or non-belief) is in God. However, when one asks a question "Is there life after death," that is a religious question. Math has no concern or viewpoint, so it is not religious. Neither does the sport of football.

How many mathmeticians do you know? Football fans paint themselves, have pre-game rituals, perform all sorts of ridiculous good luck dances, etc. They even riot when their team loses.

If Atheism didn't have a religious component, it wouldn't care about the question or have an answer, like math or football.

Oh, we're not supposed to care about our fellow human beings?

. How could something be "not religious" when it cares so deeply about religious issues and questions? Think about it.

Most of us have heard the 'casual secularist' argument before.
It's really quite insulting.
Just because belief is absent, doesn't mean feeling is absent.

Bernie
American football is really a sub-sect of Christinsanity. KA has already pointed out some of the ritualistic factors. There are also services on every day or night of the week except usually Tuesday and Wednesday. The coaches and players even praise the Christian god when they win their high honor, the Super Bowl Trophy. Communicants consume beer and hot dogs. (Or pizza or nachos-it's not as literal a denomination.) Services are held in mega-churches and broadcast over TV, with helpful interpretations by former high priests who have access to instant replay.

remy

you obviously don't know the difference between religion and philosophy?

Kudos!

KA

Just because belief is absent, doesn't mean feeling is absent.

YES! Thank you.

Krystalline Apostate said:
"Most of us have heard the 'casual secularist' argument before.
It's really quite insulting.
Just because belief is absent, doesn't mean feeling is absent."

I don't think the "belief is absent" for an Atheist. For an undecided agnostic, yes. But from what I hear from Atheists, they have no doubt-- there is no afterlife. That's a definite belief, not an absence of belief.

The sport of football has no care or opinion on the question "what happens after you die?" Neither does the art of cooking. But when it comes to the Atheist, there's a definite opinion on this "religious" question. It's the same for the question "Does God exist?" Therefore, there is a religious component to the Atheistic worldview. That is my point. That's why I say if an Atheist thinks they have no religious outlook, they are self-deluded.

...Bernie of FreeGoodNews.com

bdehler,

Why is it that you believers insist on changing the language to fit your arguments?

To repeat: Philosophy and Religion are two very different animals. (I probably shouldn't write animals, as it might confuse you, but I'll leave it for now.)

Bernie:

I don't think the "belief is absent" for an Atheist. For an undecided agnostic, yes. But from what I hear from Atheists, they have no doubt-- there is no afterlife. That's a definite belief, not an absence of belief.

Well, I'm 99.999999999% positive there isn't an afterlife. You got proof? Prove it.
Sell me that car. Otherwise, I walk off the lot.

The sport of football has no care or opinion on the question "what happens after you die?" Neither does the art of cooking. But when it comes to the Atheist, there's a definite opinion on this "religious" question. It's the same for the question "Does God exist?" Therefore, there is a religious component to the Atheistic worldview. That is my point. That's why I say if an Atheist thinks they have no religious outlook, they are self-deluded.

...& I think you missed the point entirely. On purpose?
Football causes high passions, as does cooking. Indeed, every year out in Oakland, if the Raiders lose, the fans riot.
I feel strongly about my fellow human beings being lied to about some superstitious claptrap. If you walked a mile in the shoes of an atheist, you'd see much that would make your eyes pop out, & anger would muddy your vision.
Religion doesn't improve people. Not really. It has no explanations: if the boundaries of knowledge are reached, some abstract, unseen deity's given the credit.
I don't want the world blown to shit because of some addled hairy-eyed fanatics.
That's not religion, that's giving a shit about what happens to others.
So cut the Tu quoque already.
I'm not like you in that way.