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I really don't think using the deaths of 44 (now 47) people to make a pro-atheist point is in good taste, Peter. We atheists have enough of a public perception problem as it is. That was a stupid and crass thing to say.

yeah, a little crass.

Dude - uncool.

I live in Indiana, directly across the river from Kentucky and I spent last night huddled with my nine month old daughter in our basement while storms tore up our neighborhood.

I don't really find the humor or relevance in this post. As an atheist, I know that death is final...these people are not going to some magic place in the sky. Let's have some sympathy. Not all of them voted or were involved.

Not a good post.

Let's not stoop to the level of the irrationals, please.

I don't think Peter meant it as offensive, but yeah, I agree with those above, we should be a bit more cautious in what we say, especially when it is in others pain and loss.

I don't think Peter meant it as offensive, but yeah, I agree with those above, we should be a bit more cautious in what we say, especially when it involves others pain and loss.

But Peter still has a point: it's always sauce for the goose but never for the gander when it comes to the hypocrisy of the bible-thumpers.

When have you ever heard one of them blame their "omnibenevolent" Jeebuz (i.e. giving credit where credit is due) when just the opposite happens of what they've been praying for? Yet they're all too ready to point out how it's the Lawd's divine retribution when bad stuff happens to their enemies. Nothing but silence when bad stuff happens to them themselves; where is their recognition that perhaps divine retribution has now been divinely distributed? Oh, no, not them -- they're the "anointed" ones, the righteous, a sweet smell in the Lawd's nostrils.

I feel inclined to cut Peter a little slack on this one, for making a point, regardless of the fact he could have addressed it from a better frame. We're none of us perfect.

I understand Peter's point, but I hope that if I had died last night in the storm that you would not use me as some worthless analogy to prove a point.

Also, don't tell me I am irrational when I was going through the fear of losing my family, home, car, mother, father, friends, etc...

I was dealing with it and I gave an honest response. To me, my view is rational.

@ Celebrant Prince

I'm sorry, but there can be no justification for using the deaths of people as a means to make a ideological point. There is no question that the deluded religious wack-jobs use this sort of tactic (like blaming Ellen DeGeneres for Hurricane Katrina), but that is no excuse for this kind of disrespectful comment.

In fairness, this does seem out of character for Peter. Perhaps he should consider updating the post with an apology of some sort.

Podry,

Also, don't tell me I am irrational when I was going through the fear of losing my family, home, car, mother, father, friends, etc...

I was dealing with it and I gave an honest response. To me, my view is rational.

I don't think you were being irrational by any stretch. Many a night my wife and I had to take cover in the basement of the school house in which we lived — in rural Nebraska — from the threat of tornados.

We even once (about three years ago) had a car completely totaled by hail. I mean totaled.

Storms of that nature are a terrifying thing.

Podry,

By the way, I lived 10 minutes from the spot where the largest discovered hail stone in the U.S. was documented (Aurora, NE). It was nearly the size of a soccer ball.

It was that storm that destroyed our car.

It wasn't fun to watch.

Sheesh! That was actually five years ago! Man, time flies!

Found this from December 13, 2006:

Comment from: Simon Jessey [Member]
This has nothing to do with Christmas, but the hugely entertaining Pat Robertson often makes you feel good about being an atheist. He made these comments on "The 700 Club" after the selection of Ellen Degeneres as host of the Emmys. He is referring to Hurricane Katrina and 9/11:

By choosing an avowed [sexual persuasion slur removed] for this national event, these Hollywood elites have clearly invited God's wrath. Is it any surprise that the Almighty chose to strike at Miss Degeneres' hometown?

This is the second time in a row that God has invoked a disaster shortly before [sexual persuasion slur removed] Ellen Degeneres hosted the Emmy Awards. America is waiting for her to apologize for the death and destruction that her sexual deviance has brought onto this great nation.

In a later explanation for his comments, he said this:

As I have stated repeatedly on "The 700 Club," Hurricane Katrina occurred because New Orleans is the epicenter of sinful jazz music in America. As for Ellen "DeGenerate," I have predicted she will meet her fate when the Good Lord creates an earthquake centralized directly below the studio where she tapes her talk show.

i dont think anyone is saying it's justice that this happened to these people, simply pointing out an irony.

it's a sad thing that they weren't able to get to shelter.

what would be just is if the tornado had come down on huckabees hotel room and sunk a bible into his bloated stomach.

"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open sewer and die."
- Mel Brooks

Peter,

I have to agree with some others here that your original post does come across as a bit insensitive. Had you posted Robertson's blurb in your original post, your point would have come across a lot better by comparison.

But indeed, your point is made, as the current main headline on cnn.com is:

Tornado survivor: 'I was calling on Jesus'

@ Peter quoting me from http://www.atheists.org/nogodblog/index.php/2006/12/13/seasonal_feel_good_stories#c55789:

I'm not sure what your point is for quoting the comment I made in that earlier post. Everyone knows that Pat Robertson is a lunatic. That isn't justification for using horrible deaths to make a point. "Rise above them!" I say, if you'll excuse the weak resurrection reference.

The PC bandwagon rolls on, against Peter this day.

Of course, all of you are ignoring the fact that religious retards frequently make these kinds of claims and enjoy a place in the national spotlight for it.

Peter isn't out to injure the memory of those that died in these storms. He's being satirical. If some of you can stop your hearts from bleeding for just a minute, you might recognize that no offense was intended.

I can't often side with Peter for political reasons. I simply can't find reasons to admire the tow-the-line variety (on any subject, politics included) - it's as bad as the faithers.

Still, I've even agreed with Phreedm on points in the past;clearly, stranger things have happened.

Recognize the satire for what it is and apologize to Peter for your accusations that he was being callous. Dead people don't need you to stick up for them and they clearly have no capacity to care if you do or don't. Peter is alive and has the capacity to care about how you treat him. Remember that.

Of course, all of you are ignoring the fact that religious retards frequently make these kinds of claims and enjoy a place in the national spotlight for it.

Yeah, and we all give them shit for it.

Yeah, and we all give them shit for it.

So is he. Read it again, then read his followup post if you still don't get it.

i think any xians that read this will have to take it as "an eye for an eye" and grow a thicker skin. death is part of life, peter was clearly joking, and i forgot my final point, but it was a doosey!

WTF. I can't believe all of these responses to the post. Yes, in a way it was crass because people died. On the other hand, what are you folks trying to do, make the Xians LOVE YOU??!!! I come from a long line of idiot xians, and in my opinion you really should give up the idea that they will ever ever love you or respect you. They want you dead and burning in hell to the glory of god. I love this kind of crass humor, can't get enough of it. Give us more, lordy, lordy! And yes, I agree with the poster above who points out that this is PRECISELY what the idiot xians do ALL THE TIME. God is constantly "punishing" the sinful--New Orleans, The World Trade Towers, Etc. Get a grip, folks, you will always be a minority--get used to it and enjoy it. It will be several million years before the religious "gene" gets "squeezed out" of the gene pool, if then.

I get it, AT. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. But the satire doesn't even work on its own terms. The headline says "God Strikes Down Huckabee Voters." To be satirizing what Peter claims to be satirizing, it should say something like "God Punishes States of Tennessee, Arkansas for Voting Huckabee."

You know the old saying "comedy = tragedy + time"? You can't leave "time" out of the equation.

The Celebrant Prince smugly observes that "it's always sauce for the goose but never for the gander when it comes to the hypocrisy of the bible-thumpers."

Who hungers for this foul sauce?

In an epoch when feminists and Negroes salivate over the chance to behave as badly as their erstwhile oppressors, it is sad to see a more rational demographic stoop to such crass opportunism. It's neither nice nor funny to make light of tragedy.

It's pointless and counter-productive--jackass...

Just because it has been done before doesn't mean it's OK...

off-topic
the building codes in these states have they been updated in recent yrs.i know i sound screwball but we should have some data that can be useful in preventing lose of life.at the very least every building should be required to have a fallout shelter.

I seem quite outvoted by the other commenters in my qualified support for Peter's satire; I appreciate and understand the opposing points of view. I might point out though, that in no way can I sense Peter Nunh glorying in the tragic deaths of others, as has all too often been the case when the fundies get up on their soapboxes.

I'll let it rest at that. See you all in the next thread. Goodnight.

Peter

Joking about the deaths of fellow human beings the DAY AFTER is just not cool. Whats more you made the huge assumption that the deceased were Huckabee supporters just to make this strained "joke". Not cool.

It is a mistake in judgment that we can all learn from. I am sure Peter did not mean ill, it just came across that way.

O’Hair was insensitive, crass and immoral. She was an embarrassment, even with her accomplishments. We have to be better than her and set a higher standard.

AT,

last I heard 47 people died, I would have accepted a discussion of how the ideologues decide when to say god did it and when to say god saved me, but SATIRE IS callous in this case. we're not trying to be PC, we're trying to be compassionate.

I just had to register to respond to this. If I ever die in an accident or unfortunate event, feel free to use my death as a source of material to attack any irrational fundy you want.

We all know that the universe doesn't care one iota about human suffering. While a theist may attribute the deaths of these individuals to the Mysterious Ways of God, atheists, by virtue of being realists, know that 47 individuals died without reason today. They died not because God willed it to be, but because this is a pitiless existence. We know that life is precious. Your reactions have proven without a doubt that atheists are caring people. This, I believe, was the intent of Peter's post.

Or not. I prefer to expect the best in people around me, yet plan for the worst. Its difficult to be continually disappointed.

Beergoggles,

Seconded.

I think Peter's post was cast in an ill light due mostly to the timing, while the hard hit areas are still in a shock/recovery stage. The news reports are full of survivors being quoted as saying they were saved because they were praying, calling to Jesus, etc. If I were next to them on camera I would ask them "So the poor folks that died weren't praying hard enough? Were they calling to Satan?" I took Peter's remarks as pointing out the selective use of some god's powers, much like the selective quoting of the Bible to further an agenda. No way did I see Peter as trying to take advantage of the victims. Just real bad timing. Peter, you did write a perfect headline for The Onion next week. I hope they use it.

Ted Haggard is in the news again. Operation Restoration didn't take.

http://tinyurl.com/2stml5

Let the jokes begin!

The always-sharp-tongued Mark Morford of SFGate sums up the BushCo-McCain economic and foreign policy nicely.

http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/morford/

The comments are right on. Satire, "Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity."

I mentioned this yesterday on a blog, Jesus' candidate Mike Huckabee wins in Arkansas and Tennessee and tornadoes strike killing dozens. You would think that gawd would protect his son's candidate, but no. It is funny.

As to folly, you can find the usual stupidity in the stories. Jesus' president, Bush, says,

"President Bush gave assurances his administration stood ready to help. Teams from the Federal Emergency Management Agency were sent to the region and activated an emergency center in Georgia.

"Loss of life, loss of property; prayers can help, and so can the government," Bush said. "I do want the people in those states to know the American people are standing with them.""

- Oh yeah, prayer is going to help a lot. Well, those people may have prayer earlier for the tornadoes to spare them. Thank you gawd.

"More than 20 students at the Southern Baptist school were trapped behind wreckage and jammed doors after the dormitories came down around them."

- Maybe they think it was a miracle that they survived. The better miracle would have been for the roof to hold. There is the heart-touching story of the baby who "miraculously survived.

""He has no broken bones -- he's doing great," Doug Stowell said, though he was already wondering about medical costs and insurance coverage.

He said he and his wife will now raise Kyson.

"We'll get by best we can," he said. "We've had some divine intervention.""

- Yeah, but gawd killed the baby's mother you clown. Why so? There is the nice part on having problems with medical costs. BTW, what is Huckabee's position on single-payer universal health care.

In Canada or any European country he wouldn't have to worry about it.

Any occasion is good for showing the folly and stupidity of belief.

Bernarda

BTW, what is Huckabee's position on single-payer universal health care.

He's proposing "single-prayer" system which stands in slight contrast to McCain's "multiple preyer" system.

Back to the Peter's original post: I do see the point. I am totally disgusted when the morons say that, "God saved me" in reference to Katrina, yet totally forget that "God" also created the hurricane and killed a lot of people in their religious mentality.

I agree with the others that the timing was off. Usually, I agree 100% with Peter's arguments...it just hit a little lower yesterday as I drove to work and noticed the damage.

So, carry on Peter! I am glad that we can all disagree on this forum and not want to kill each other like others we know.

Then there was the pastor who stood in front of his damaged church and proclaimed that it was a "Great day!" because he cancelled services and his parishoners were not crushed.

Not so great for those who were crushed.

I just saw an interview with two of the students from the dormitory that was destroyed. The female student — almost immediately — began giving credit to her God for saving her life and the lives of her friends.

Imagine the ego involved in essentially saying God has decided your life is worth more than someone else’s... and you thank him for it.

Disgusting.

I'm not understanding why we shouldn't take every opportunity to offend theists using their own beliefs. Yes, its crass. That is precisely why the point must be made.

What a stupid, stupid, stupid post. It isn't just morally repulsive - but how very much so. But this is so amazingly slovenly in basic logic. Conclusion drawn: "But if I was [sic] a Christian, I'd think twice before pushing that little button for Mike in the future primaries." Well, a half-wit needn't think twice about this reasoning to see it rests on superstition, on providence, on the very tendency castigated by atheism. A reasonable materialist would regard the deaths of probable Huckabee voters as, you know, a coincidence, not worth a superstitious "thinking twice."

Wrangling with the subjunctive mood is obviously a bridge too far for dullards of all creeds (and none), but smirking remarks like these ought to warn us thinking, decent atheists, no matter how intellectually strident the indecent form is.

KIP

I think it's fine to poke fun at the xian blabbing on about preferential treatment from an imaginary being but the people that died yesterday were (1) not all known to be theists, (2) not all known to be claiming such preferential treatment and, (3) not even in their graves yet. My empathy extends to all humans effected by such tragedy. That doesn't mean that I wont take them to task after the tragedy has sufficiently receded.

You got an award for this one! Obviously its easy to mess up on this topic. Leave it for the pros. Go and watch George Carlin on YouTube: "Religion is Bulls**t, its priceless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

hey,everybody,my sister lives in Arkansas,and the storms just missed her.What i found amusing is that god,if indeed he is a wrathful god,missed a beautiful chance to wreak some holy vengance.See,my sister is gay,and she lives in a trailer!!

and since when is using the L word in regards to sexual orientation considered taboo?

oops,better clarify,i used the L word,(this is ridiculous,isnt it?)in an earlier attempt to post,and it got the boot

flashbazzzbo,

From what I gather, there was some trouble with spam quite a while ago, so certain words are blocked out.

I don't know if this restriction will ever be lifted.

This post could have been at least somewhat clever, except for the problem that the full facts undermine it.

You see, the candidate who had both the highest vote total and the highest margin over same-party opponents on Tuesday's primaries in Arkansas and Tennessee was Hillary Clinton.

Ask the religious nuts if God were willing to, for example, punish Arkansas for supporting Hillary Clinton with more votes than the top three Republican candidates got combined, and what do you think they would say? Three guesses, and the first two don't count.

I am a theist. I am a physicist. These are totally compatible conditions. In fact, my scientific background emphatically re-enforces my belief in God and the reality of his existence. The atheist movement is an empty plane. It is comprised of ignorant (people not knowing or caring to do so) souls who may also be riddled with guilt for their many transgressions. You who read these line and profess to be an athiest can scoff and label me a inflexible, evangelical type but this would only re-enforce the supposition I am making. You don't know and you are afraid that if there is a God, you will be doomed. Hence you are reactionary in your stance that there ain't a God. With all the physics and astronomy that I have had the priveledge of learning and admiring, there can be no other conclusion that God exists, is ever present, and desiring a relationship with those who wish to converse. His actions throughout all of space are mystical, mysterious, and of magical. I can't tell you how many time He has made his presence known. I marvel at his creation, which is eternally in flux. What an awesome God, what an awesome life that I have in Him.

I am a theist. I am a physicist.

Which Christian “college” did you graduate from?

In fact, my scientific background emphatically re-enforces my belief in God and the reality of his existence.

No it doesn't. You twist what you know about science to fit your religious world view. Which of course is in direct contrast with what science attempts to do.

The atheist movement is an empty plane.

There's an atheist movement like there's a "we don't believe in unicorns" movement.

It is comprised of ignorant (people not knowing or caring to do so) souls who may also be riddled with guilt for their many transgressions.

Yup. Just as I thought. Crazy.

You don't know and you are afraid that if there is a God, you will be doomed.

Stop projecting. The truth of the matter is that YOU don't know...and YOU’RE the one who's afraid.

Our "reactionary" stance is simply the default position. If there is utterly no evidence for, or proof of, something existing, one has no reason to believe in its existence — whether it's your particular God or not.

Besides, you’re an atheist as well. You've decided there is no evidence for any of the Gods humans have invented throughout our history, except one. Which makes you an atheist with regards to those Gods. We atheists simply believe in one less God than you.

With all the physics and astronomy that I have had the priveledge of learning and admiring, there can be no other conclusion that God exists, is ever present, and desiring a relationship with those who wish to converse.

LOGICAL FALLACY ALERT! And you call yourself a physicist?

By the way, I don’t know many highly educated scientists (such as yourself) that would misspell the word ‘privilege’. Just an observation.

I can't tell you how many time He has made his presence known. I marvel at his creation, which is eternally in flux. What an awesome God, what an awesome life that I have in Him.

Yup. This is definitely the post of a crazy person, not a physicist. Maybe it’s time to take your meds.

doc,

One other thing...maybe before posting, you should check the subject of the thread.

Doc, I suggest we continue this conversation on the "Debate with Theists!" thread.

Or "Religious Hypocrisy". That would work, too.

Maybe it’s time to take your meds.

I do. He should 'start' taking meds. I promise the voices will stop wispering in your head (I wouldn't know; I never was 'that' crazy).

Doc

I'm a physicist as well. What's your operational definition of "gawd"? What's your operational definition of "exist"?

For the record there is nothing in what you wrote above that would lead me to think you are actually a physicist - far from it. In fact your preaching is indistinguishable from that of any other xian yet you claim that physics some how supports your gawd assertion. OK. Then tell us how.

doc

And then tell us why you claim to understand the "atheist movement"? Are you also a historian or sociologist? Your post sure sounds like someone who doesn't know the first thing about atheists. You can't even imagine someone who really doesn't believe that your god exists. How can I be afraid of something that isn't real? Looks like you've got some explaining to do.

Union University in Jackson, TN, which was so badly damaged in Tuesday's tornado is a BAPTIST school. It was also targeted when the last tornado ripped through Jackson several years ago. Even though all the students and others are mouthing the "prayer saved me" crap, I'm kind of thinking gawd has something against Baptists.

KIP,

I do. He should 'start' taking meds. I promise the voices will stop wispering in your head (I wouldn't know; I never was 'that' crazy).

Ha!

Doc,

You don't know and you are afraid that if there is a God, you will be doomed.

How can you be certain that "God" doesn't actually hate those with blind faith and doesn't reward those who think for themselves?

I don't believe that either. I no fear none of this since I understand that there are limits to my own understanding. You have forgotten this important fact.

Any being that may or may not exist who chooses to punish me for accepting my own limits is free to do so. Assholes don't deserve worship.

Hence you are reactionary in your stance that there ain't a God.

Look up the definition of "atheist" again, you got it wrong.

Strong atheism != atheism

And if you ever catch me using the word "ain't", please put me down. That word is a sure sign of cretinism unless used in jest.

His actions throughout all of space are mystical, mysterious, and of magical.

And are therefore not at all in line with ANY scientific theories about the nature of the universe.

For some reason the words "empty rhetoric" spring to mind.

With all the physics and astronomy that I have had the priveledge of learning and admiring, there can be no other conclusion that God exists, is ever present, and desiring a relationship with those who wish to converse.

Oooh, a combination logical fallacy. 2 for 1: jumping to conclusions coupled with a side order of the argument from ignorance.

Oooh, a combination logical fallacy. 2 for 1: jumping to conclusions coupled with a side order of the argument from ignorance.

I think you can get that for $4.25 at Mc Christians. Delicious.

DVanWechel

McChristian's. Is that the fast food restaurant I saw advertised on TV where the meal was accompanied by a "loss of self-esteem"? The girl at the counter asks if she can get it without that, but the man behind the counter yells "No special orders!"

alatham, I understand your point that the use of "ain't" is today an indication of ignorance. But it wasn't always so. A form of the old "an't" that was once quite respectable.

Also, as Mark Twain said, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so".

Doc,i too am a physicist,i am also a biologist,physical therapist,botanist,fatalist,and a radical feminist.I am also considered one of the leading experts in the field of recto-physical flambescence.It is my study in the field of recto-physical flambescense,(which i admire most),that enabled me to come to the conclusion,aided by my expertise in the field of recto-physical flambescence,that you,sir,with all due respect,(because, we who study recto-physical flambescence are nothing if not cordial) have the intelligence quotient of the average bowl of soup.and not alphabet soup,neither.Thank you,oh and also,if you ask for some sort of proof for my conclusions,well,hell,i will not offer them because,well,i clearly stated my numerous qualifications,and if that isnt convincing enough,the fact that i asserted them with superiority and authority should be enough.

Karen,

I think that's the one.