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Dave,
The big deal is that this is hypocritical of the left and secular democrats. You're also confused, this is a church that Obama supports, Rudi hasn't (to the best of my knowledge) attended a Robertson church for the past 20 years. Supporting a church with probably tens of thousands of dollars and pandering for votes are two entirely different things.

Had this been McCain's preacher preaching racist bullshit, everybody would be crying for him to be removed from the GOP ticket.

MXRacer

Give me (us?) a break. McCain advocates for the invasion of a country that posed no threat to us. THAT is what should keep HIM off the ticket yet it HASN'T.

Yesterday Obama gave the best and most adult-like speech I have ever heard in my lifetime from a president or presidential candidate. Judging candidates by the company they keep is ineffective at best. Judging them by one specific member of this company is ludicrous. If you want to know their position on the issues then ask them. If they don't support those positions in office then elect someone else. Our bad representation is no less our fault than those we elect to represent us.

Seems like clutching at straws to me. If they need to attack Obama by the company he keeps then he is in pretty good shape. Also I would have to think that any rational person running for president appears religious but really isn't, since for some stupid reason you have to believe in fairy tales to be elected in this country.

Obama for Pres.

This is all they have got on Obama. When it comes time for the dems to go after McBush the words Keating Five will ring loudly. You would have to be mentally retarded to elect such a deregulation-obsessed politician in the midst of an economic meltdown due to deregulation. McBush is corrupt. If it was not for his "war-hero" status he would have been in jail for his involvement in the Keating Five.

The issue is that this guy is Obama's "spiritual mentor." If we criticize or condemn GWB for his consultations w/ Graham, then we should do the same for Obama when he has this nutjob as one of his counselors.

By the way, did anyone else pick up from Obama's speech that he was partially excusing Wright's remarks because of historic racism?

In any case, there are much better reasons to be critical of Obama, and you can find them all in his voting record.

http://www.counterpunch.org/gonzalez02292008.html

Granted, Matt Gonzalez is running against Obama (and Counterpunch is pretty extremist), but the article raises some excellent points.

Obama wants us to think that he cannot disown Rev. Wright just like he cannot disown members of his own family. That argument is complete rubbish. You can choose your religion and your church, but not your family. It is completely different. If your religious leader starts preaching hate, you have a right to get up and leave which Obama clearly did not do.

I actually agreed with a lot of what Obama's preacher said.

Pha

You appear to be saying that you can not "disown" members of your family. But you can . Obama said that HE can't disown Wright anymore than HE could disown his grandmother who loved and cared for him. I think that most of us have experienced choices like this in our lives. For example, my step father was and is a racist but I love him very much. He has been very good to me and he is very important in my mothers life. This does not mean that I support his views. On the contrary I argue frequently with him about such matters.

I don't demand that everyone in my life measure up to my metrics. The world is not so black and white. Surely this is something that atheists and others that abhor the dichotomous underpinnings of religion can agree upon.

Comment from: mxracer652

I am afraid that I am going to have to disagree with you on a few things:

The big deal is that this is hypocritical of the left and secular democrats.

Just like so many other things that are drummed into our consciousness from the Republican't media and the Republican't political machine, this is even more hypocritical of the religious right (which is neither) to bring up and demand that others hold to the standards they themselves cannot measure up to. I would agree to a limited extent that the more fervently secular members of the democratic party are being mildly to flagrantly hypocritical, though...

You're also confused, this is a church that Obama supports, Rudi hasn't (to the best of my knowledge) attended a Robertson church for the past 20 years. Supporting a church with probably tens of thousands of dollars and pandering for votes are two entirely different things.

The money is the big deal here - money for the fat cat Republican't hare apparent to have for years, and money to be (once again especially hypocritically brought up by Republican'ts) picked at when put into the tithe plate at his church as supporting every initiative that the church puts forth, however full goose bozo looney it is. I certainly don't hold to that, having been lied to, many times over the years, by christians in order to get some of my cash into their collection plates.

Had this been McCain's preacher preaching racist bullshit, everybody would be crying for him to be removed from the GOP ticket.

Which preacher that McClueless has honored as being a 'spiritual guide' would you like to discuss?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagee
??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley ??

Or his religiously insane opponents in the primary (one of which could be Veep*)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Huckabee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney

For starters. I'm sure with some serious Soros and/or Buffet money I could be convinced to dig into things a bit deeper...

At least the spiritual guide has been upgraded since Nancy's astrologer helped out with the White House press core back in the days of Ronnie Ray-Gun...

* - which brings up the hypothetical(s): which of them would be a better shot? And how would it factor in the VP decision? Would it be irresponsible to speculate about it? Would it be irresponsible not to?

D'oh! Freudian slip: core should be corps.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

Obama gave an excellent speech. But that said, I don't buy it. I don't want a president who sits in church while his minister says, "God Damn America!" I don't want a president who belongs to a church which unapologetically is dedicated to Africa or any other country but the one he wants to be president of!

Obama's minister can damn America and Obama can give an excellent speech but the fact remains that I have not heard either of them damn Africa, the country which holds the blame for going into the bush, rounding up their own people and selling them to slave traders. Africa deserves the 'damning' business at least as much as this country does.

And okay, slavery was wrong, terribly wrong. But it is OVER. Picking at a scab never allows the wound to heal. Obama's preacher and others like him should be looking to the future, not to the past. If we look to the past we can see that yes, slaves were badly treated. But much of the population, slave or not, lived in terrible poverty and many people were badly treated. Maybe they weren't slaves in the sense that they were held as property but thousands were slaves in the sense that if they wanted to eat they were slaves to horrible jobs in mines and mills and stockyards and what have you.

Blacks today have big problems in this country but rather than pull together they seem only to band together when somebody like Bill Cosby suggests they need to get to work and fix their problems.

As an atheist I don't know what any of the Jerry Falwells or Pat Robertson's say for sure but so far as I know none of them have said, "God Damn America."

I will NOT vote for Obama. I deserve a president who at least puts my country first and doesn't sit silently by in a church pew when somebody in a pulpit damns my country!

God Free,
My thoughts EXACTLY.

If Afrocentric "rev" wright finds life in America as a black man so intolerable I must ask why he hasn't returned to Mother Africa? We all know just how great his life would be there in the black man's paradise. Liberia was founded with America's help and has a right of return policy for the descendants of American slaves and I would glady pay for his one way airfare (can he get Je$$e Jackass and Al $harpton to go along too?). I would also advise him to be careful of the civil war and the cannabalism out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberia

GFG

And okay, slavery was wrong, terribly wrong. But it is OVER. Picking at a scab never allows the wound to heal.

Some lesions are not benign lacerations or infections but rather malignancies that if untreated, and sometimes despite treatment, can grow and kill the host. Obama addressed a malignancy and I am glad he did.

I am part native American and I have no problem with native Americans who would say "Damn America". I have other heritages as well and I understand their perspectives too. Blind patriotism is a disease of the mind that leads us into disgusting and pointless wars. Burn the flag or say "damn america". I don't care. What I care about is policy.

alexatheist

Your question was offensive. Our rights as guaranteed in our Constitution apply to all of us. Would you tolerate Phreeky telling you to go elsewhere if you don't like the influence of xianity in our country?

We are all, every one of us, part this and part that and I also have a little native American blood, but we all Americans, first, last and always. I see my country's faults but I also know this is the one which has done more to help people and other countries far more than any other country in the world. Besides that, like many on this blog, I have blood kin who have died to protect the freedom of those like Obama's minister who would damn the country which gives him the freedom to curse it.

And I do not say native Americans were treated fairly. However, native Ameicans weren't saints either. They were pretty busy fighting and killing one another just as blacks are pretty busy killing one another this day in age.

As far as policy goes, I too care about policy. But there is no perfect candidate out there. Obama's lack of experience even without his unfortunate choice of pastors is certainly not impressive.

His plan for health care for all Americans is laughable. He's going to reduce costs so that everybody can afford health care! Wow! Guess I missed it when he told us HOW that can be accomplished.

Further, he believes he has a golden tongue and can waltz out and convince our enemies to change their ways. The man has little experience and no clue in my opinion.

Let me just ask you Dave...

If McCain was a member of a church that had a minister that was from the KKK and the minister preached hate and anti Americanism from the pulpit, where McCain said not one word against his hate speach for 20+ years, what do you think his chances of being elected would be?

GF&G said it better than I could have.

I'm 26 and the only people I hear bitching about racism still being a problem are stuck in the 50s.

It's just not an issue in my generation, much like gays.

Grow up and move on.

DD

If McCain, rather than his minister or relatives, had supported the invasion of a country which killed 100s of thousands of its citizens and drove millions from their homes would you support him.

Oh wait a second ... HE DID.

Same goes from Hillary.

McCain and Hillary were both US senators with the power and position that would have mattered when this ghastly invasion was launched. I ask you who is more dangerous? Some dumb ass loud mouth minster or some dumb ass US senator?

GFG

However, native Ameicans weren't saints either. They were pretty busy fighting and killing one another just as blacks are pretty busy killing one another this day in age.

So let me see if I have got this straight. Its OK for us to commit genocide if the deceased are not saints. Brilliant. There couldn't possibly be room for catastrophic abuses under such a rule. God Bless America!

I'm 26 and the only people I hear bitching about racism still being a problem are stuck in the 50s.

... and non-whites. But they don't count right?

I'm 40 and I have been hearing whites say that there is no problem with racism since I was old enough to understand what the word meant. I am sure the same was being said in 1850 by far too many.

Let's talk about the war, the economy, and the price of gas

why bother cluttering the election cycle with issues? It just distracts the voters.

GFG

Further, he believes he has a golden tongue and can waltz out and convince our enemies to change their ways.

Do you have evidence to support this claim?

The man has little experience and no clue in my opinion.

He has more experience than Lincoln. Most importantly, what makes you think government "experience" is necessary characteristic of an effective president.

I think (no evidence) that the republican slime machine buries Obama and we wind up with Mccain. I think Hillary can withstand the rsm.

Comment from: writerdd

I actually agreed with a lot of what Obama's preacher said.

Here we have someone who's actually not afraid to be truthful about their hatred for America...

Listen folks, Christian preachers spew hate ALL THE TIME, and nobody accuses the parishioners of agreeing with everything they say (because nobody believes their preachers anyway).

Atheist arrogance at it's best...

Gee Dave...you became an atheist at the tender age of 3...

Exactly how many of the 852,000 churches in America have you attended...?

It's irrational, emotional comments like this that discredit many atheists...

Oh wait, actually knowing facts makes no difference...kind of like...

There is no God in the entire universe....ok. I get it.

The reality is...the Dems have lost in November. Period.

As I've stated several times, it's all by design.

McCain was able to grant the major media great power through the farce known as campaign finance reform...he's going to get elected as payback.

Even Soros has funded McCain...

Shawn Hannity has been talking about Obama's pastor for over a year. Don't you find it the lease bit odd that now, after the delegate count assures Obama the nomination, that now the major media is all over this story?

The black community already believes Obama is the nominee. This story will not go away, and it gives good cover to the super delegates to vote for Hillary. If that happens the black community is going to feel cheated. Since the historical black vote is around 95% for dems, if they stay home, it's a huge hole for Hillary to fill.

Do some research...it's all a game.

phreedm -

Xian arrogance at it's best...

How many churches do you have to attend, how many years of xian preachers "spewing hate" do you have to hear before you get sick of the whole thing? I had to go to a Pentecostal church (James Dobson's denomination) as a youngster, and, in a Northern state, I was hearing the "N" word coupled with some pretty awful statements.

And how many of those 852,000 churches have YOU attended? I doubt that right wingers who fulminate about public schools have attended all the public schools in the nation. Rather than deal with the realities of what your religion actually teaches instead of what it gives lip service to, you throw out this red herring.

If Xians actually believed their "good news" message of peace and love, there would have been MILLIONS of people in the streets protesting this faux war as a HUGE WASTE OF PRECIOUS HUMAN LIVES... oh, right. They've just gone to a better place. Duh.

You are a moron, just like your smirking leader.

phreedm -

Then again, maybe you're not such a moron

"Do some research...it's all a game."

Kind of blows holes in the "liberal media" thing, doesn't it?

Let's talk about the war, the economy, and the price of gas, please!

If i screwx up da balowcks bglwoute, that's bicause I'mb wavstieccd, butt, oh butt, you r'e as xing for A FIGHT, HERE DATEVE.

tom rightly mentioned McCain's spiritual mentors Hagee and Parsley. These guys are end-timers.

Hagee has even called for a war on Iran because he believes it will bring on armageddon. Which is worse, Wright saying "goddamn America" or Hagee urging the end of the world?

But there has been little media attention to Hagee.

what:

That was/is the only thing going in Obama's favor. McCain was not my 1st choice but beats the hell out of people further SELLING our country off.

Dems want to allow ALL illegals into this country with not background checks, nor medical checks. I am just waiting for TB to rear its ugly head in this country.

Dems are pushing to make this a 3rd world country. Bring as much slave labor into this country to do the manual jobs, outsource our middle class jobs to India, PI, China, etc.. Reduce everything down to the haves and have nots.

McCain is not much better. If Dobbs throughs his hat in, or someone else with half a brain, I'll chose them first.

Comment from: phreedm

I actually agreed with a lot of what Obama's preacher said.

Here we have someone who's actually not afraid to be truthful about their hatred for America...

So when are you going to be truthful and tell us about your irrational unreasining hatred of atheists?

I mean, if you're actually going to pretend that you have the moral high ground, and are entitled to define ohters as being america haters, then you should also objectively and honestly evaluate your own flaws in this area. Right?

Oh, wait - you're a Republican't christian. The most hypocrticial two faced liars on the planet.

Never mind...

Comment from: phreedm

Listen folks, Christian preachers spew hate ALL THE TIME, and nobody accuses the parishioners of agreeing with everything they say (because nobody believes their preachers anyway).

Atheist arrogance at it's best...

Coming from an arrogant christian arsehole, that statement has such resonance with the audience! Such gravtias that azll athiests should rethink their entire philosophies, and embrace fairy tales about an invisible sky fairy.

Or maybe it's just the same old same old religious insanity coming from the same vacuous pue-hole that it always does around here...

Gee Dave...you became an atheist at the tender age of 3...

Exactly how many of the 852,000 churches in America have you attended...?

Probably one less than you, elitist christian phreak...

It's irrational, emotional comments like this that discredit many atheists...

...as opposed to irrational crap from religiously insane idiots like you.

Oh wait, actually knowing facts makes no difference...kind of like...

...there being no facts to support any of the big books of religious fairy tales?

...the way religiously insane idiots like you, phreakshow, completely ignore any sort of factual accuracy in your comments here?

...the way christians ingore or trivialze any facts that don't agree with their pagan superstitions?

There is no God in the entire universe....ok. I get it.

Do you? Do you really?

Maybe if you could find some, like, facts and stuff, that would support your wild-a$$ christian delusions, you might some day be qualified to comment on this topic.

I'm relatively sure that won't stop you from dropping steaming loads of christian horse hockey all over the comments sections of non-religious web sites like this, though...

The reality is...the Dems have lost in November. Period.

Um, mental midget – the reality is that it is March, and the election is in November.

Did the voices in your head, er, your invisible sky fairy, tell you that the Dems will have been losers by the time 2009 rolls around? Or is this some radical new faith based time travel you gots going on here?

As I've stated several times, it's all by design.

Coming from a religiously insane idiot who believes in intelligent design, this statement is semantically null. Like so much that exudes from the big hole in the front of this phreakish melon.

McCain was able to grant the major media great power through the farce known as campaign finance reform...he's going to get elected as payback.

When he can’t even follow his own campaign finance rules?

Oh, wait – Republican’ts don’t have to play by Republican’ts rules. That’s for suckers, er, Democrats, to do!

Even Soros has funded McCain...

Yeah – I believe you. Honest. With no proof that what you’re saying has any connection whatsoever to reality as we know it.

Did Rush or Sean Hannity tell that to you for the past year?

Shawn Hannity has been talking about Obama's pastor for over a year. Don't you find it the lease bit odd that now, after the delegate count assures Obama the nomination, that now the major media is all over this story?

I don’t find it the least bit odd that a paid shill for the Republican’t Party has been trying to disseminate Republican’t talking points through his Republican’t owned and controlled media outlet while performing his Republican’t duties of advancing Republican’t lies and disinformation, no…

The black community already believes Obama is the nominee. This story will not go away, and it gives good cover to the super delegates to vote for Hillary. If that happens the black community is going to feel cheated. Since the historical black vote is around 95% for dems, if they stay home, it's a huge hole for Hillary to fill.

Do some research...it's all a game.

Coming from someone who appears to do absolutely no research, presents no facts or rational argument to support their wild a$$ allegations, and continually tosses illogical religiously insane off-topic comments into an atheist web site, this ‘analysis’ seems to be somewhat lacking IMHO. Perhaps if you would try and pull your head out of your anal sphincter once in a while, you might notice that your buffoonery is only good for parody around here.

But, by all means, keep on giving us all a poignant example of just exactly how mentally deranged religious insanity can make some people act like complete and utter arseholes to their fellow human beings. Pointing to your scribblings has already caused some fervent church contributors to rethink and reject the religious beliefs they were brainwashed with from infancy.

Comment from: atheistmike

And how many of those 852,000 churches have YOU attended?

It doesn't matter how many I've gone to. I'm not the one making a blanket condemnation...besides. I wouldn't be so arrogant to assume I knew what went on in every one of them...

The conservatives like Rush Limbaugh love this battle. They don't have to defend McCain but just watch Obama and Clinton bicker. It's perfect for them.

'Harlem Preacher says Obama got a White Mama'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgtIqeV-6mk


hahahah

What, did you actually just compare Obama to Lincoln? They're both from Illinois, but other than that...

If the Iraq war is really the important issue for you, I advise you to closely examine Obama's position.

He won't commit to a date for complete withdrawal (even 2013 strikes him as too soon); his plan would keep at least 60,000 troops in Iraq; and those removed from Iraq would be redeployed to Afghanistan!

And, in 2004, he stated that his position on the war was very close to Bush's! (And he was telling the truth!)

Like it or not, Hil-dogg is actually a better choice for those who oppose the war.

But Obamanation will go on, hearing only what they want to hear.

The cult of Obama will not only dismiss the maniacal ravings of Mr. Wright, but also the blatant anti-Americanism of Michelle Obama, who "wasn't proud" of this country until her husband became wildly popular.

Excuse me while I vomit.

This will all be forgotten soon, just like McCain's sport-fucking of lobbyists has already been forgotten. In August nobody but 29-percenters will still remember who the Rev. Wright is.

Oh man this one's even better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khuu-RhOBDU&feature=related

'Obama is a long-legged, mack-daddy!!'

What
"Your question was offensive. Our rights as guaranteed in our Constitution apply to all of us. Would you tolerate Phreeky telling you to go elsewhere if you don't like the influence of xianity in our country?"

If I ever got to the point where I publicly proclaimed that America was evil and my life here was intolerable, yet I stayed, then yes I would welcome phreedum advising me to leave. The difference between rev wright and myself is that he hates America whereas I love this country. America isn't perfect but without a doubt it is better than anywhere else.

I call this The Loony Preacher Political Doctrine, it points out the difference in the parties:

Democratic presidential candidates are better off if they avoid loony preachers.

Republican presidential candidates are better off if they are loony preachers.

Comment from: phreedm

Comment from: atheistmike

And how many of those 852,000 churches have YOU attended?

It doesn't matter how many I've gone to. I'm not the one making a blanket condemnation...besides. I wouldn't be so arrogant to assume I knew what went on in every one of them...

...you'd just be arrogant enough to tell an atheist that he knows nothing of what he's talking about because he didn't attend services in every one of those 852,000 churches. Plus, you're a religiously insane idiot who thinks he can spew irrational illogical kimchee like this and be able to get away with it.

Feel free to ignore this, like you ignore everything else that points out to the rest of the world how much of a religiously insane brainless moron you are. Maybe you can selectively quote me now and pull a pithy, off-topic question out of this and pretend to answer it - the way you do whenever you feel that people aren't paying enough attention to your occult superstitionist diatribes around here.

And - Suck it, jeebus phreak!

What,

Addressing your reply to my comment that slavery is over and blacks need to get over it you stated:

"Some lesions are not benign lacerations or infections but rather malignancies that if untreated, and sometimes despite treatment, can grow and kill the host. Obama addressed a malignancy and I am glad he did."

Exactly how do we treat what you call this "malignancy"? As a country we have extended Medicaid, welfare and affirmative action. Yet, according to many blacks, we still owe reparations for our "sins". Again no mention of the fact that Africans sold their own people into slavery, which evidently isn't to be held up to the light.

You are dead wrong on this issue. Slavery is over, has been over, and blacks need to move on. Yes, there is still prejudice in some dark corners of this country, but I don't hear you giving your country any applause for the positive things which have been and are being done for blacks. I don't see you holding up the many blacks who have benefited from the programs this hateful country so willingly offered.

I need look no further than my own family to see that holding dear and fanning the flames of wrongs long since past only destroy the lives of those who don't move on. I have a grandfather and a husband who suffered terrible wrongs early in life. Those two chose to move on and have led successful and outstanding lives. On the other hand I have a grandson who chooses to dwell on the past and blame the world. His life is a disaster. I compare these situations to that of continuing to seethe over a country's policy which is no more.

What Obama did in his speech was more or less change the subject. He told us, if you read between the lines, that it isn't that what Rev. Wright said that was inexcusable, but rather that we whites had fallen short. What Obama was saying was that if Wright and blacks in general are angry and occasionally say hateful things that there is reason, and that we whites, if we are surprised, haven't been paying attention.

I don't know what it is about Obama that has blinded so many people, but I can assure you that he is not the great semi-white or semi-black hope the world has been waiting for.

Unless I'm wrong he will be elected our next president. But in the rhetoric of "change" I hear a disturbing hint of buried anger and a sense of approval for his pastor's disgraceful statments along with a hidden sense of racial righteousness.

So go for it. Vote for him. Won't it be great to have a president with a dedication to another country ahead of his own and a wife who finally has found reason to be proud of her country because her husband has blinded so many voters, and I presume, a pastor making regular trips to the Whitehouse to spew hate from a larger pulpit.

EJ

What, did you actually just compare Obama to Lincoln? They're both from Illinois, but other than that...

A few folks here have been repeating Obama-experience mantra of Clinton and the rethuglicans. Lincoln had one term in the US House of Representatives. Obama has one term in the US Senate. Obama beats him on experience. Where's your argument?

If the Iraq war is really the important issue for you, I advise you to closely examine Obama's position. He won't commit to a date for complete withdrawal (even 2013 strikes him as too soon);

Really? If you want to know his position then read it. Here it is from the issues section of his website:

Bring Our Troops Home: Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.

and then you say:

and those removed from Iraq would be redeployed to Afghanistan!

Afghanistan! You do realize that Afghanistan isn't a city in Iraq, don't you?

But Obamanation will go on, hearing only what they want to hear.

Looks like someone his reading what he wants to read.

What,

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound comparing Obama to Lincoln?

Lincoln was active in politics for 28 years before he was elected president. He was key in forming a new political coalition and ultimately a new party. And by all accounts, he eloquently delivered many speeches more rousing than Mr. Obama's on topics much more controversial.

Don't be silly.

So Obama has ran far leftward on Iraq? What makes you think he won't change his position *again* (anti-war in 2002, pro-war in 2004, and anti-war again now that he's campaigning)?

Thanks for the geography lesson; my point is that Obama has no plans to reduce our military commitments--in fact, he wants to expand the size of the military.

I implore you to read Matt Gonzalez's criticism of Obama:

http://www.counterpunch.org/gonzalez02292008.html

Examine the man's voting record. Please.

EJ

Lincoln was active in politics for 28 years before he was elected president.

Obama has more substantial experience in the federal government than did Lincoln. Don't be silly by denying that fact.

So Obama has ran far leftward on Iraq? What makes you think he won't change his position *again* (anti-war in 2002, pro-war in 2004, and anti-war again now that he's campaigning)?

It appears you can't bring yourself to admitt that you were wrong. You were wrong when you stated Obamas posistion and now you simply state that he was prowar in 2004. How dishonest can you be. Prove your accusation or, this time, admit that you aren't do the most basic research into Obama's position on the Invasion of Iraq.

Thanks for the geography lesson; my point is that Obama has no plans to reduce our military commitments--in fact, he wants to expand the size of the military.

Once again you are making statements about his positions that conflict with what HE says about his position.

You should do the most remedial research first before putting words in the candidates mouth.

What,

You didn't even bother reading the article I linked?

In it, you will find a quote from Obama in 2004, saying that he wants to keep troops in Iraq for counterterrorism, which most analysts say will require a troop level of 50,000-75,000. He also said that his position on the war, in 2004, was "not that far from that of President Bush."

Politicians will say anything to get elected, and Obama is no different, no matter what you would like to believe. Here's another link showing how his position on Iraq has changed:
http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/barack_obama_flip_flopped_on_iraq/

Now I've cited *two* sources for you. I highly doubt you will bother to actually read either, as I suspect you are afraid of the cognitive dissonance.

I should have been more clear before--I am familiar with Obama's stated position, but I have no reason to believe him, when for *years* he supported the idea that withdrawal would be catastrophic for Iraq, and he only changed his position during his presidential campaign.

Once again you are making statements about his positions that conflict with what HE says about his position.

You mean you haven't heard his "expand the armed forces by 100,000" mantra? It's on his website, and you seem to be familiar with that!

Here it is:

Expand the Military: We have learned from Iraq that our military needs more men and women in uniform to reduce the strain on our active force. Obama will increase the size of ground forces, adding 65,000 soldiers to the Army and 27,000 Marines.

Well, turns out that Obama's math, and mine, were wrong--it's only 92,000. But it's an increase.

He also wants to increase military spending. Seriously--go check out all the new equipment he wants to order. It's on his website!

Maybe you should do some remedial research before you project your own views onto a political candidate!

And start with the Gonzalez article. You will be very surprised by what you read.

Correction: he changed his position on Iraq for his presidential campaign, not during it.

EJ

Man you are all over the place.

In it, you will find a quote from Obama in 2004, saying that he wants to keep troops in Iraq for counterterrorism,

Counterterrorism? Oh you mean "Al Qaeda in Iraq"? Given the intelligence of Obama I would expect that he understands that there is no "Al Qaeda in Iraq". Unfortunately the BushCo propaganda machine has got the lazy MSM believing that there is and thereby forcing all candidates to speak about this nonexistent threat. So Obama responded to this nonexistent threat by saying that if Al Qaeda in Iraq attempts to build a base in Iraq he would go back in. Now, why would he say such a thing? Because there is no "Al Qaeda in Iraq" and therefore no need to go back into Iraq.

The group that the MSM refers to as "Al Qaeda in Iraq" does not call itself by that name. They call themselves The Islamic State of Iraq. They are a Sunni nationalist group that simply wants us out of their country. Al Qaeda - the lame little bogeyman - is a Sunni group of religious fanatics.

McCain does not know the difference between Sunni and Shia as he displayed three time in one 24 hour period this week. And he keeps pushing the lame "Al Qaeda in Iraq" nonsense.

It's very difficult for any candidate, even an adult like Obama, to respond to the challenges of our times within the context of the tangled web of propaganda woven by BushCo. A tangled web that McCain promotes as much as Rudi 9-11 Gulianni.

which most analysts say will require a troop level of 50,000-75,000.

Ah, so is that your way of adnitting that, opce again, you put words into Obama's mouth that were never spoken?

MX,,how many people have you known and liked in your lifetime?Are you willing to be responsible for their every utterance?Of course you would'nt,nor would any reasonable person expect you to be.This nonsense of ,one person, who knew another person ,who said some stuff,and because the one guy knew the other guy,well that suggests that they are indeed in agreement on the subject that the one guy was talking about.Thats fucking ridiculous!!!Its just more smoke being blown up your

MX,,how many people have you known and liked in your lifetime?Are you willing to be responsible for their every utterance?Of course you would'nt,nor would any reasonable person expect you to be.This nonsense of ,one person, who knew another person ,who said some stuff,and because the one guy knew the other guy,well that suggests that they are indeed in agreement on the subject that the one guy was talking about.Thats fucking ridiculous!!!Its just more smoke being blown up your ass in an effort to divert from any real issues.Really,its all about getting their particular assbag elected.

HATESPEAK?!?! What exactly are you referring to Dave? What exactly do you consider "Hatespeak"?

Is this another crazy jew, ADL inspired witch hunt against anyone who acknowledges Israels apartheid & ethnic cleansing campaign against non-jews in Palestine?

Which statement made by this preacher was false, let alone legally considered "hatespeak".

If you believe we should "talk about the war, the economy, and the price of gas", which war should we start with, the war on drugs, the war on terror hoax, the war on crime, the war on poverty, the illegal war on Iraq, the war on Afghanistan, the US funding of the war against non-jews in Palestine, the war in Darfur, ...????????

whoops,sorry,for the double,i was going for launchcast,and ...well...I missed

In addition to Dave's rabid ranting and finger pointing, I'm really disappointed at the other disturbing comments that reek of racism by Alexatheist and God Free.

Their comments sound like something that would be preached at a Klan meeting, not on a so-called freethought blog.

Freethinkers should be aware of the injustices faced by people both past and present as well as the laws created to ensure the equality and protection of all people- things like the Declaration of Human Rights, the UN Charter, the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, Geneva Convention, etc.

The disgraceful simple minded fallacies expressed used to justify genocide, illegal war, racism, imperialism, and blind faith nationalism is something I'd expect from cult members, not self righteous atheists.

If McCain were elected we would be in Iran in 2009. Sorry, correction, poor Americans with limited opportunities would be fighting and dying in Iraq. We would be footing the multi-trillion dollar price tag while the captains of industry got even richer.

More Wars, Less Jobs
Assbag (thenks flashbazzzbo) for Pres

Iraq -> Iran
Just ask McCain.

And can the flag waving proud Americans here explain to me and others just how acknowledging, addressing and condemning the horrendous crimes and injustices committed by the US government, US military and US citizens is equated to "hating America"???

Since when is the USA defined by it's crimes? Since when does anything but a cult-like, blind faith, head in the sand, nazi-like allegiance to the government make one unpatriotic?

I'm proud to support & defend the US Constitution & the rule of law, but ashamed and embarrassed to be an American because of the crimes my government & fellow citizens committ
and the level of stupidity & arrogance embraced by so many Americans.

And NO, I won't leave, I choose to stay and fix things and fight fascism and stupidity.

any white who votes for obama is gullible.this is funny as hell watching white liberals squirm.black preachers have always preached hate whitey.obamas' mother wouldn't be allowed in that church which shows absolute lack of character on his part.
obama is trash turning his back on the family that raised him how dare he insult his grandmother when his black father didn't lift a finger for him.
the preacher is from older gen.but obama has no excuse being biracial and younger why didn't he find a multiracial church they do exist.

Secularman
we will never rest until the gov't compensates us for our lost property in slaves.

Secularman,

I don't know how anybody can twist thoughts as you have. I do not condone genocide, illegal war, racism, imperialism, and blind faith nationalism, nor did I say anything like that.

All I said, and will say again, is GET OVER IT, MOVE ON, FIX WHAT NEEDS FIXING NOW, AND QUIT HARPING ON SLAVERY. The past is OVER!

I'm almost afraid to ask...

Comment from: SecularMan

I'm proud to support & defend the US Constitution & the rule of law, but ashamed and embarrassed to be an American because of the crimes my government & fellow citizens committ

Hmmm...what crimes?

I choose to stay and fix things and fight fascism

What fascism?

EJ

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Don't get me wrong, I like Obama, he's my senator and I've voted for him. But, he is not the hope that people are looking for. I can't understand how Obama can run on his Iraq record when he wasn't even there at the time of the vote to authorize the use of force. That would be like Hillary taking credit for opposing the Vietnam war. Supporters point to his speech in 2004 but if words are so important then how do they explain the my position is bush's position quote? If you want to go by Obama's record he has voted to fund the war every single time, while others have voted against it. Obama is more of a politician than people realize and I think there will be a lot of disappointment from the left when they come around to realize it.

phreedm

Hmmm...what crimes?

After WWII there has been a few,(only country to use nuclear weapons and on civilian non-combatants, CIA conducting acts of terrorism and false flag operations in central & south America and Iran to overthrow democratic nations) but recently: Bush election fraud, Bush telling lies to the American people and international community in order to launch wars of aggression, starting an illegal war of aggression, kidnapping, imprisoning & torturing people without charges, continued approval, support & funding of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, etc which boils down to the crimes of violating the US Constitution, UN Charter, Nuremberg Principles, and Geneva Convention. And that just an easy reader starter.

What fascism?

If you bother to see the forest through the trees, you might notice the erosion of civil rights, corporations & banks controlling politics and media ("corporatism" blending state and corporate power), supremacy of the military, rampant nationalism, demonization of scapegoats, disdain for human rights, arts and intellectuals, labor power suppressed, obsession with crime & punishment and national security, rampant cronyism & corruption, fraudulent elections,corporate power protected by the government, religion and government are intertwined, rigid sexuality/sexism /family values preached by government... anyone with an open mind can see all these traits in the "good ole USA" and these are all defining traits of fascism.

GFG,
there was no twisting. You believe that the only thing the USA ever did wrong was slavery of kidnapped Africans and the genocide of Native Americans and it should all be dismissed. Yes the past is the past. The slavery and genocide the USA was founded upon is long gone, but there have been more recent things like oh, Jim Crow laws, constant violations of treaties with surviving native americans forced on reservations, ...
And your rationale is outrageous that since native Americans fought amongst each other, the US policy of extermination and manifest destiny, which makes Hitlers final solution look weak, just isn't that bad in your eyes, just like the US national industrial slave trade and cultural extermination being not that bad to you since there were tribes within the continent of Africa who had forms of slavery and that some of those tribes from that continent sold those of rival tribes to European slave traders.
You have no problem with preachers hooting "God Bless America" giving divine support of US military Aggression and corruption but are angered by a preacher that says "God Damn America" in disgust with the crimes and injustices of our country? Onward Xian Soldiers is okay, but a preacher who preaches against national wrongs is horrible?
Are you going to accuse history teachers who teach kids about slavery, race laws, segregation etc, of hate speech and teaching hate?
I fully support the words of Cosby telling people to take responsibility for their fate and lives, but that doesn't mean that the byproducts and effects of the national criminal policies of the USA should be dismissed as a whole, especially when some of these policies were only a generation away.
You claim you have "blood kin who have died to protect the freedom of those like Obama's minister who would damn the country which gives him the freedom to curse it." So which of your blood kin fought in the revolutionary war for independence? Because the last time troops from this continent fought for freedom they were firing muskets at guys in red jackets.

SecularMan

Most of the liberal-bashing numbnuts can't even get over 8 years of Clinton yet they feel free to tell blacks to get over hundreds of years of slavery and gut wrenching discrimination. Their suffering from the anxiety of a cognitive dissonance provoked by a black man making their traditional white politicians look like rank amateurs despite their so-called "experience".

Their -> They're

EJ

You mean you haven't heard his "expand the armed forces by 100,000" mantra? It's on his website, and you seem to be familiar with that!

So not only have you misrepresented Obams's position but now you misrespresent mine. Did I say I was opposed to the expansion? Did I even mention it?

Our military is being destroyed by BushCo and his sidekick McCain. I am all for restoring what they have destroyed and getting some adults into office that know how to restrain themselves from throwing temper tantrums that kill 100s of thousands, displays millions and cost trillions of dollars.

I am also all for getting adults into office that know the value of regulating
the traditional banking system and the investment banking system. Do you think that John Keating-Five McCain is that person? If you do now then you wont in a few months when it becomes obvious just what deregulation has wrought. I hope you are ready for what is to come.

displays -> displace

NEW YORK In an interview that will appear in this Sunday's New York Times Magazine, controversial televangelist Rev. John Hagee declares, "It's true that [John] McCain's campaign sought my endorsement."

I knew I'd regret asking...

SM, are you related to "What"?

Basically...you need to learn what fascism really is...

Government control of industry and policies such as minimum wage are just a few characteristics...

But you're filled with so much rage and hatred there's no way that wall will ever be scaled with facts...

Just out of curiosity, what do you find good in life...?

Getting back to the original thread...

For anyone who has actually served his fellow man and gone into the inner city, it's obvious that there is reverse racism in many areas. Not everyone, but it's definitely there. It's always been a curiosity as to why some within the black community don't want to integrate.

Listening to Rev. Wrights sermons sheds some light on the problem...

It also makes perfect sense why Michelle Obama made the statement about "finally" being proud of her country...

Secular man,

Again, you put words in my mouth.

However, beating a dead horse has yet to cause it to rise to it's feet and win the race.

Phreedm,

You made the same point about your supposed anti-fascism a few weeks ago and were called to task on that. And yet here you repeat the same nonsense.

From wikipedia:

Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: patriotism, nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, autocracy and opposition to political and economic liberalism.

Those are adjectives that describe you much better than the people you call "fascist."

For anyone who has actually served his fellow man and gone into the inner city, it's obvious that there is reverse racism in many areas. Not everyone, but it's definitely there. It's always been a curiosity as to why some within the black community don't want to integrate.

I agree with you here, it's a difficult problem.

One of the problems is the use of terms like "reverse racism." Blacks who hate whites are racist, they are not "reverse racists" and that behavior is just as disgusting as whites hating blacks. But this is just a minor point.

The problem as I see it is that people draw artificial lines in the sand (such as which church you go to, or your skin color, or how you dress) in order to build a community in order to exclude others.

How do we get people to stop drawing these lines in the sand? How do we get people to accept those that are different? We need to find the source of these problems instead of constantly fighting the symptoms as we so often do. If I had a solution, I would present it, but I don't.

It also makes perfect sense why Michelle Obama made the statement about "finally" being proud of her country...

I applaud her comment. America has done horrible things in the recent past and I do not feel proud of the direction my country is currently headed.

You do not need to be proud of something in order to recognize that it needs to be fixed. America's ego is part of the problem, it needs to be tempered.

SecularMan,

I'm with you all the way. There is plenty of American history that we should be disgusted by, not praising. And the present is the same way.

I'm not proud of America at the moment, but I do have hope for its future.

Why can't Phreeky read?

Comment from: phreedm

I knew I'd regret asking...

...stupid religiously insane questions at an atheists stite. Yet, somehow, you neven stop...

SM, are you related to "What"?

phreakshow, are you related to the Westboro Baptist Homo Haters?

Basically...you need to learn what fascism really is...

...and who better to tell everyone what they know nothing about than a religiously insane phreakshow?

Government control of industry and policies such as minimum wage are just a few characteristics...

...but, somehow, phreakshow forgot to mention the controlling of the media, abuse of government power to harrass and intimidate your political opponents, or any of the other fascist tactics being employed by today's Republican'ts. Funny, that...

But you're filled with so much rage and hatred there's no way that wall will ever be scaled with facts...

...unlike the hatred and rage coming from you, phreakshow. Right?

Just out of curiosity, what do you find good in life...?

Just out of curiosity, why is it that you expect to be able to be considered seriously when you ask questions? Especially when you have the bad habits of ignoring others' questions to you, and insisting that others answer you while ignoring everyone else?

Nice distortion of the comments and positions of someone else around here, too, you sick cultist. Did your invisible sky fairy give you some sort of waiver for all the sinful behavior you engage in here? Perhaps you might ponder that a bit before you open the vacuous pie-hole in the front of your melon again.

Alatham

You do not need to be proud of something in order to recognize that it needs to be fixed. America's ego is part of the problem, it needs to be tempered.

I have never been a fan of pride or patriotism. Pride and patriotism are very similar to piety and theism.

Tom

Did your invisible sky fairy give you some sort of waiver for all the sinful behavior you engage in here?

Have you read the Amber Spyglass yet? Phreeky is Father Gomez.

4-F Freedy's anti-facts have been destroyed by truth... again...

Sad that he never learns... but expected...

What,

I agree, to an extent. I don't think pride is an inherently bad thing, but it must come as a reaction to personal actions or thoughts.

It is stupid to be proud of belonging to a certain family, or belonging to a certain country (if you were born there), or having a certain skin color. These are things that nobody has any control over, so when they take the credit for it (by feeling proud) it's really just a way of shutting others out.

For instance, according to my father (who is not crazy) I'm a distant relative (though not descendant) of Abraham Lincoln. His son, Robert Todd Lincoln married the daughter of Senator James Harlan. I happen to be a member of the Harlan family, though my exact relation to James Harlan is a bit unclear. This is a cool piece of family history, but I'd be fooling myself if I decided to feel proud about it. Doing so would be no different from saying "look how much better than you I am, Abraham Lincoln's son shows up on my family tree." Big deal.

On the other hand, I feel plenty proud of the music I write, the toys I've helped design, my girlfriend, and that I live a life full of rationality. I don't feel this pride is misplaced or uncalled for (not that I think you would suggest such a thing).

In the end, I have no problem with pride as long as it's reasonable. But patriotism very rarely falls into the "reasonable" category. I think you'll agree with me here, patriotism is a detriment to fixing America's problems.

Also, I see the Phreedm Father Gomez connection. Terrifying but true.

obama and mccain have both sought the support of bigots and should not be elected president.

Pictures and meetings of Hillary and Bill Clinton are now surfacing connecting them with Rev Wright as well as other religious nuts. I guess the difference between the Clintons and Obama is that the Clintons were not in church (a very sacred place to us atheists) when Wright was ranting. Oh wait neither was Obama.

what
obama does not seem to be hurt too bad by all this.religion on the other hand did not come out looking too good.

Comment from: atheistmike

Kind of blows holes in the "liberal media" thing, doesn't it?

Only if one believes McCain is a true conservative...

Here's a prime example of why I no longer response to "tom" or his twin "What"...

Comment from: phreedm

Government control of industry and policies such as minimum wage are just a few characteristics...

and his response...he obviously doesn't know what "just a few" means...

Comment from: (: tom :)

...but, somehow, phreakshow forgot to mention the controlling of the media, abuse of government power to harrass and intimidate your political opponents, or any of the other fascist tactics being employed by today's Republican'ts. Funny, that...

According to your counterpart...deregulation from the republicans is destroying America...and yet you claim the republicans are the one's who want more government control...

You guys better do a better job with the inner office memos...

Comment from: alatham

The problem as I see it is that people draw artificial lines in the sand (such as which church you go to, or your skin color, or how you dress) in order to build a community in order to exclude others.

So very true...and it's generally the Dems who develop policies based upon artificial lines...

It also makes perfect sense why Michelle Obama made the statement about "finally" being proud of her country...

I applaud her comment. America has done horrible things in the recent past and I do not feel proud of the direction my country is currently headed.

Here is her exact quote...

Michelle Obama proclaimed yesterday that for “the first time” in her adult life,”

For those who didn't see Pat Buchanan's column on Obama's speech:

Pat Buchanan
3/22/08 Editorial in Response to Barak Obama Speech re: Pastor Jeremiah Wright


Whites have right to be angry, too

How would he pull it off? I wondered.
How would Barack explain to his press groupies why he sat silent in a pew for 20 years as the Rev. Jermiah Wright delivered racist rants against white America for our maligning of Fidel and Gadhafi, and inventing AIDS to infect and kill black people?

How would he justify not walking out as Wright spewed his venom about “the U.S. of KKK America,” and howled, “God damn America!”

My hunch was right. Barack would turn the tables.

Yes, Barak agreed, Wright’s statements were “controversial,” and “divisive,” and “racially charged,” reflecting a “distorted view of America.”

But we must understand the man in full and the black experience out of which the Rev. Wright came: 350 years of slavery and segregation.

Barack then listed black grievances and informed us what white America must do to close the racial divide and heal the country.

The “white community,” said Barack, must start “acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination—and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past—are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds… .”

And what deeds must we perform to heal ourselves and our country?

The “white community” must invest more money in black schools and communities, enforce civil rights laws, ensure fairness in the criminal justice system and provide this generation of blacks with “ladders of opportunity” that were “unavailable” to Barack’s and the Rev. Wright’s generations.

What is wrong with Barack’s prognosis and Barack’s cure?

Only this. It is the same old con, the same old shakedown that black hustlers have been running since the Kerner Commission blamed the riots in Harlem, Watts, Newark, Detroit and a hundred other cities on, as Nixon put it, “everybody but the rioters themselves.”

Was “white racism” really responsible for those black men looting auto dealerships and liquor stores, and burning down their own communities, as Otto Kerner said—that liberal icon until the fed put him away for bribery.

Barack says we need to have a conversation about race in America.

Fair enough. But this time, it has to be a two-way conversation. White America needs to be heard from, not just lectured to.

This time, the Silent Majority needs to have its convictions, grievances and demands heard. And among them are these:

First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known.

Second, no people anywhere has done more to lift up blacks than white Americans. Untold trillions have been spent since the ‘60s on welfare, food stamps, rent supplements, Section 8 housing, Pell grants, student loans, legal services, Medicaid, Earned Income Tax Credits and poverty programs designed to bring the African-American community into the mainstream

Governments, businesses and colleges have engaged in discrimination against white folks—with affirmative action, contract set-asides