NoGodBlog.com

Un f*uckin believable

For anyone squeamish about watching it, the Wikipedia entry on the film (under "Fitna (film)") describes the events it depicts.

Unfortunately, people will probably just condemn the movie...

Critical and moderately provocative film about Islam? Racist! Facistic! Hate-speech!

...and be sympathetic towards Islam.

Executing those who never had a real chance of choosing their religion if they leave their religion? OK!

Executing gays? OK!

Executing those who insult fantasy? OK!

Indoctrinating and labeling children? OK!

It could've been a better movie though.

The message should be: "Stop all religion. Educate it out of the minds of the world", instead of focusing on just Islam... for that's the only cure to our problems.

I tried to watch the movie, but couldn't get through it. All I have to say is: Christian America is no better than the Muslim fanatics depicted in this film. We are simply more capable of killing on a greater scale. Everybody remember "Shock and Awe"? I would like to ask how dropping a 2,000 lb GPS guided JDAM on a group of "suspected terrorists" and killing their families in the process, is any better than cutting off the head of an individual? Murder is murder, and it is all being done in the name of the same god. Mankind will not truly be free until all religion is eradicated from the minds of everyone, the world over.

It's troublsome that some folks compare Christian fundamentalism to Islamic extremism. After 50+ years in the Baptist fundamentalist movement, I never knew of anyone getting the head literally lopped off, never knew of any preachers advocating killing their oponents, or preaching world conquest by force.

Westboro Baptist is the most extreme I've seen.

Seeker,

During my time in the Persian Gulf region, I can say first hand that I have seen hundreds of Muslims with their heads, arms, legs etc... blown off by DPICM (Dual Purpose Improved Cluster Munitions) by the good Christians in the US Military.

UBL was successful at killing roughly 3,000 Americans on 9-11. Since then, we have killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in response. People who's only crime is looking like the people that attacked us and worshiping the same prophet.

So yes, I am comparing Christians to Muslims. IMHO, the only difference is that we are more efficient at killing them, than they are at killing us. I will say it again; Murder is murder.

Seeker

It's troublsome that some folks compare Christian fundamentalism to Islamic extremism. After 50+ years in the Baptist fundamentalist movement, I never knew of anyone getting the head literally lopped off, never knew of any preachers advocating killing their oponents, or preaching world conquest by force.

Get real! In this country xians trade their support of a war that kills thousands for the mere hope of getting a couple of supreme court justices sympathetic to their delusions. They are just as guilty and do their killing on a very large scale.

Suck it Jesus and Mo!
(not the comic strip)

Oh and you to Moses!

I was a pastor of a fundamentalist church for over a decade. I had no desire to lop off anyone's head, infidel or otherwise. I knew no pastors who had such extremist ideas.

Believing in the supernatural may be absurd, but it doesn't necessarily predicate extremist violence. Consider the Amish, Quakers, Mennonites and other pacifists groups.

Seeker

Once again, tell us how the US evangelical that supported the invasion of Iraq thereby leading to the death of 100s of thousands of Iraqis is somehow less barbaric than your favorite whipping boy - the bogeyman islamofacist?

Seeker

I was a pastor of a fundamentalist church for over a decade.

It doesn't look like much has changed. You're still judging every one but yourself.

Seeker,

In our counrty, it is not necessarily the preachers that preach war to the people, it is the President, VP, SecDef, Secretary of State, et al, ad nauseum, that are the perpetrators of such barbarity, and it is their supporters, the Evangelicals, that enable them.

You can't tell me that George Bush doesn't think he communicates with God on a regular basis, or that God didn't tell him to invade Iraq.

Believing in the supernatural may be absurd, but it doesn't necessarily predicate extremist violence. Consider the Amish, Quakers, Mennonites and other pacifists groups.

That is a valid point you make, however, the groups you cite are an extreme minority in this country. Now consider the 80% of Americans that thought it was a good idea to invade Iraq when the war began. Not so much anymore, but the blood-lust was there at the beginning. What percentage of those that supported the war from the outset, do you suppose are God-fearing?

I believe it was Ann Cuntler that said it best; "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them all to Christianity." Now tell me there is no correlation between religiosity and the desire to kill.

One of the most common arguments made on behalf of religion is:

Question: If you don't believe in gawd that what stops you from killing?

Answer: Preservation of species and empathy. Both are encoded in our genetic material. However, some people are deficient. The fact that xians need a gawd fantasy to restrain them from killing supports the assertion that their default tendencies are one's that need restraining.

seeker, last I looked, the Deep South is deeply Baptists, but I don't suppose they were involved with around a hundred years of lynchings. Of course not.

There were lynchings in the North too, like in Duluth, Minnesota, no xians their I suppose. To give you an idea, see the book "Without Sanctuary". Here is the site.

http://www.withoutsanctuary.org/main.html

Notice the big happy proud crowds in many of the pictures. Couldn't be any xians there, could there? But these postcards were a popular subject among many at the time.

Seeker,

I was a pastor of a fundamentalist church for over a decade. I had no desire to lop off anyone's head, infidel or otherwise. I knew no pastors who had such extremist ideas.

This is an argument from personal experience, which is inherently limited. I, for one, do not believe that all religious people are bloodthirsty. But I do believe there are enough examples and enough logical connections between delusion and righteousness and violence to indicate a problem.

Religions are intolerant. You're right that there are varying degrees of intolerance, but please don't just assume the extremes don't exist. If there were a way for us to dissuade only the extremely religious we would, but religious moderates surround the terrifying extremist core and protect them.

Believing in the supernatural may be absurd, but it doesn't necessarily predicate extremist violence. Consider the Amish, Quakers, Mennonites and other pacifists groups.

You're right, extremism is in no way necessary. Can you think of a better way to separate the moderates from the extremists? It's the "pack mentality" that allows religion to flourish unabated.

I also wouldn't point to the amish, etc, as good examples of religion. They cap their children's education at a very young age in order to destroy their ability to survive in the real world, thus forcing them into a life that many of them would not have chosen otherwise. There are also examples of abuse within their communities that they hide from the general public:
http://www.newsnet5.com/specialassignment/2342993/detail.html

That article makes the claim that an Amish girl was raped and the rapist confessed and was shunned for 8 weeks. Quite a fitting punishment, right?

Again, it's not the average Amish person that's guilty, it's the community at large that's guilty because they protect the extremist core. It's no different from the USA attacking Iraq ostensibly because they were hiding religious extremists.

How many innocents have to die before we figure out that we're all just human and really not that different?

Sorry, I made an error:

It's the "pack mentality" that allows religion to flourish unabated.

This should read "It's the "pack mentality" that allows religious extremism to flourish unabated."

Ren: You are an idiot.

I am as anti-Christian as one gets but to consider current Islam to be equal to the Christianity we live with is an exaggeration.

However, if we did not live within the present culture, there exists, without doubt, a faction of
dedicated Christians who would scream loudly for the death of all blasphemers.

Ren, you are smart. :)

Sorry. I didn't intend to start of firestorm.

Most philosophical disciplines have extremists. Westboro Baptist Church's Fred Phelps, Christian Identity's James Wickstrom and Jeremiah Wright could be tagged as extremists among American Christianity.

My concerns are:

• The slaughter of innocents is not unique to religionists. Consider Maximilien Robespierre, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse-Tung, etc as atheists whose violent extremism equals that of the Muslims.

• Violence is a human, not religious, condition.

• Exaggeration discredits atheism.

• The core problem with religion is the belief in that which is not real. To that end, the notion that evangelical Christians are no different Muslim extremists bears the same fault as religion: It's a myth.

• Hateful attacks against evangelicals smacks of the same intolerance and phobias typical of racists.

As I noted in a previous thread: There is a difference between atheism and anti-theism. Recommended reading: How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of Science 2001 ISBN 0-613-35413-3

Also, consider imbibing in the musing of atheist John Ray here:
http://dissectleft.blogspot.com/

and here:
http://snorphty.blogspot.com/

The slaughter of innocents is not unique to religionists. Consider Maximilien Robespierre, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse-Tung, etc as atheists whose violent extremism equals that of the Muslims.

Please be advised that they did NOT do theses things "in the name of" atheism. The problem lies in their unthinking devotion.

the notion that evangelical Christians are no different Muslim extremists bears the same fault as religion: It's a myth.

DeepDiver,

I am a lot of things, fortunatly, idiot is not one of them.

Fuck you and everyone that thinks like you!

**got cut off**

the notion that evangelical Christians are no different Muslim extremists bears the same fault as religion: It's a myth.

Na-ah. given the same climate there would be no difference between the two.

There is a difference between atheism and anti-theism.

Yes. Atheism is a belief that there are no supernatural beings. Anti-theism is the wish that irrational beiefs would disappear.

Is this syllogism is true?

Islamic extremists oppose the war in Iraq
Peter Pacifist opposes the war in Iraq
Peter Pacifist is an Islamic extremist

Seeker

Anymore stupid questions?

Can somebody fill me in. What prompted DD to call Ren an idiot? Was it the 80% comment? That was hardly deserving of the idiot label. I have know Ren to be straight-talker (eat your heart out McCain). What gives?

Believing in the supernatural may be absurd, but it doesn't necessarily predicate extremist violence. Consider the Amish, Quakers, Mennonites and other pacifists groups.

Are there not similar groups within the Muslim faith? If so, then you do not seem to be considering them as much as you do the pacifistic christians.

The core problem with religion is the belief in that which is not real. To that end, the notion that evangelical Christians are no different Muslim extremists bears the same fault as religion: It's a myth.

I think your are mis-stating the argument here. the notion is that christian extremists are no different than muslim extremists. And I would have to agree with that to a certain degree. The radical anti-choice elements, as well as the radical anti-gay elements, within christian groups are ever y bit as incendiary. Tire irons to the head might not be as glamorous as lopping one's head off, but the end result id the same.

They both rationalize their own pedophiles, and the pecadillos of their fellow religious leaders.

And, while cruel inhuman monster have been in power under pretty much every type of political organization, and so they all have harbored these types of abusive characters, religions have long tried to institutionalize their preferred brands of inhuman behavior towards those they deem to be immoral. Inter-racial relations were violently deterred by christians within the last fifty years, for starters. Sally Kern's speechifying about how teh gayeez are more of a danger than terrorists only wanted to prevent them from engaging in most forms of civilized contact with the rest of the good part of society - a lifetime of isolation, shunning, and abuse with the threat of violence never more than a heartbeat away - might not be as bad as a quick slice from the scimitar to some. But I don't think it's all that productive to be concerned about how many times over which form of religious insanity wants to kill the gawdless heathens. Anything more than zero is wrong. Especially from those who proclaim their morality is superior and we'd all be better off if we'd just accept the superior wisdom from their exalted lips.

Can somebody fill me in. What prompted DD to call Ren an idiot?

I was wondering that too. Just catching up after being gone for a day, and I don't get it.

I wasn't all that impressed by the video, btw. Seen it all before, and the way it was presented didn't really hit me hard. Maybe that says more about me than the film? Am I too jaded?

But th[e] true God is A L I V E !!!!

Well that settles it then!!!!
I know I'm convinced. Anyone else?

Waiaiaiat-a-minute; to which, of the thousands of gods are you referring?

Seeker,

The slaughter of innocents is not unique to religionists. Consider Maximilien Robespierre, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse-Tung, etc as atheists whose violent extremism equals that of the Muslims.

I agree with this. The one thread that combines all if them is Authoritarianism (if someone can prove me wrong, please do so). The real problem with many religions as I see it is that it cannot dissociate itself from Authoritarianism.

I'm not an anti-theist, but I am anti-Authoritarian. But as far as the vast majority of the American public is concerned, those two qualities amount to the same thing.

karen,

I wasn't all that impressed by the video, btw. Seen it all before, and the way it was presented didn't really hit me hard. Maybe that says more about me than the film? Am I too jaded?

No, just educated. This film wasn't meant for us. When we watch it, it's no different from preaching to the choir.

I do hope that people who have never paid any attention to Islam take a look and then do their own research. I am wary of relying on what amounts to a propaganda film though.

Thanks to all that have stuck up for me. I have never had a problem with DD before, so it really came out of the blue for me. Perhaps if he had stated why he thinks I am an idiot, I would have responded differently. As it stands, though, I replied with a quid pro quo. Given time to think about it, I actually feel bad for my reply, but it is out there now and I can't take it back.

So what's the deal DD? Please explain what I said that makes you think I am an idiot? I stand by everything I said, but I am willing to discuss it, if it will smooth things over.

Karen, I can't comment on your level of jadedness, but I wasn't able to get past the first half of the first part of the video because of all the triggers. Like you said, I have seen it all before and don't need to see it again.

Maybe this video will incite riots among xians:

Gay Scientists Isolate Christian Gene
http://www.slatev.com/blog.html

Heh.

Google syndication has decided that the word frequency here means that we could be interested in using a Muslim dating service, object matrimony, of course.

The picture in the ad would seem to imply that burkha aficionados are being excluded.

Missing Preacher Found at Strip Club:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080329/ap_on_fe_st/pastor_strip_club;_ylt=Ai7OJGo1paKOKDENa76WYfis0NUE

seeker, if you are trying to make a point, you should at least get things straight.

Robespierre was not an atheist, but a religionist and created the cult of the Supreme Being. He opposed the Hébertists for being anti-xian, among other things, and opposed atheism in general. You might say he was a sort of puritan Republican.

A George Bush of his day. "The Terror" for him was a means of instilling virtue in the public.

Ren and What:

I haven't posted here in a while, but I note that the both of you are still up to your old ways. By that I mean you attack anyone who has different opinion or different perspective than you. Even if you think someone is wrong you shouldn't fly into a rage against them.

Now go ahead, and flame away at me.

alexatheist [Member]

Gay Scientists Isolate Christian Gene
http://www.slatev.com/blog.html

*******

Are you gay?

What i know, God only created Man and a woman.

In the garden of Eden there are only three creatd in God's image, Adam (man), Eve (Woman) and Satan that tempted them to disobey God.

Gay? Do you think it's Satan's? Genes?

Christ is in the Way:
I've said a thousand times, and I'll say it again.
Do you realize that if the story of Adam and Eve were true, the human race would have extinguished itself a long, long time ago?

If you really think about it, and you sincerely believe that rubbish of Adam and Eve, then you approve of incest.

Who's the morally bankrupt one, now?

alatham,

[blockquote]The one thread that combines all if them is Authoritarianism[/blockquote]

Yep!

alatham,

The one thread that combines all if them is Authoritarianism

Yep!

Apple_Christmas,

I note that the both of you are still up to your old ways. By that I mean you attack anyone who has different opinion or different perspective than you.

You must have me mistaken with someone else. I didn't attack DD for having a differing opinion than me, I believe everyone is entitled
to their own opinion. I fired back at DD for calling me an idiot without explaining why he felt that way.

Even if you think someone is wrong you shouldn't fly into a rage against them.

After posting here for roughly two years, I really shouldn't have to explain myself, but here goes.

I suffer from a stress related illness. PTSD that was brought on by my service in the Army. I spend fully half my life enraged, and that is thanks to all the medication I take. If it were not for the meds, I would be pissed off ALL the time. That is why I spend so much time here; because I am afraid of getting arrested whenever I go out into public.

Notice I often show remorse after I have unloaded on somebody. It is not my intention to be upset all the time. I am sick, and it shows. I will, however, say that I feel fully justified in my rage at the war in Iraq, and those that support said war.

Are you gay?

Yes, dear. Are you curious?

What i know, God only created Man and a woman.

You KNOW this? How? because some dusty old book says so?

In the garden of Eden there are only three creatd in God's image, Adam (man), Eve (Woman) and Satan that tempted them to disobey God.

Show me some proof of this extraordinary claim.

Gay? Do you think it's Satan's? Genes?

I don't believe in satan because I can think so the devil is off the hook for homosexuality. What I do think based on current medical science is that being gay is genetic and/or hormonal. At the end of the day does it matter why people are gay? isn't it enough that some of us are?

"In the garden of Eden there are only three creatd in God's image, Adam (man), Eve (Woman) and Satan that tempted them to disobey God."

Why would a "loving" god knowingly create someone who he knew would disobey him and tempt others to do the same? If all three were created in god's image, then god is a two faced bitch, since Adam and Eve were pure/good and Satan was evil.

I think you need to re-read your book, because as I remember it god only created one being, stole a rib from him and turned it into a woman. So as the story tells it, Adam came from absolutely nothing and god apparently needed a rib to make Eve.

Also, I don't recall there ever being a Satan in the eden story. Maybe Lucifer, the fallen angel, but not Satan. And another thing, it was a fucking snake, not a guy in a red suit with a tail and horns, that tempted those two idiots to disobey god by eating healthy.

I'm an Atheist and even I know how the fable goes.

Apple

If you have an argument to make then make it. If I think it's lame I will probably tell you so. I generally flame the folks that are obviously not here to make sincere arguments.

Tell a lie often enough and it becomes truth...


Comment from: Ren

Comment from: Obeah

Please be advised that they did NOT do theses things "in the name of" atheism. The problem lies in their unthinking devotion.

Of course it was...

Just like everyone on this board...hate those who don't believe as you do...

http://www.vbs.tv/shows/north-korea/

Tell a lie often enough and it becomes truth...

Isn't that official Rovian doctrine?

I'll put my first hand experiences up against your talking points any day.

"Tell a lie often enough and it becomes truth..."

At least for phreedumb, or any other xian for that matter.

Just like everyone on this board...hate those who don't believe as you do...

That's funny! My next door neighbors are devout Christians. Go to church every Sunday, yet I love them to death. I would do anything in the world for them. Reason? Because they respect my right to believe as I wish, just as I respect their right to believe as they wish. It is only those that try to force their beliefs onto me that I take issue with.

Take yourself for example. You come here to our sanctuary, spewing your horse shit, and you catch hell for it. I don't give a rat's ass what you believe personally, regarding religion, just keep it to yourself. Nuff said!

Ren

Isn't that official Rovian doctrine?

The soon to be indicted Rove? Yep, that's the one.

Say Ren,

You're as bad as Dave. Both of you can make claims and when asked to back them up you both quickly change topics...

Hey...I figured you'd love to see the kind of guy you're supporting for Prez...

Didn't you even caucus for him...?

Obama’s Former Pastor Getting $1.6M Home in Retirement

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/27/obamas-former-pastor-builds-a-multimillion-dollar-retirement-home/

"Christ is the way", you need psychiatric help.

Rusty Shackleford, thanks for that information about wikipedia which I just read. Now I can skip the video. I once saw a video showing a muslim cutting off somebody's head, and I don't need to be grossed out again.

It's very obvious Muslims are insane, but it's important to remember Christians are equally insane.

Look at this crap, written on a Christian blog today by a pastor: "The Bible teaches of Salvation by Grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Without that faith, it doesn't matter how many good works a person performs...If they have not put their faith, hope and trust in Jesus Christ....they will not go to Heaven, but will wind up in the Fiery Pit of Satan called HELL." http://tinyurl.com/34yvyn

Notice this part: "it doesn't matter how many good works a person performs"

I don't care which sky fairy a religious person believes in. All religious people are scum.

"Jesus is my hope and trust"

Why don't you make the world a better place and drop dead right now so you can see your jesus preacher man.

Idiot.

That's funny! My next door neighbors are devout Christians. Go to church every Sunday, yet I love them to death. I would do anything in the world for them. Reason? Because they respect my right to believe as I wish, just as I respect their right to believe as they wish. It is only those that try to force their beliefs onto me that I take issue with.

Well said.

well seeker, it is certainly better said than what you didn't know about Robespierre. You are giving phreedom competition.

wisconsinatheist,

The Genesis creation account has a few other glitches.

Note, for example that the light and darkness (day and night) appeared, not the mention 24 hour days, before the sun was created on day four.

Another problem is the existence of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers -- their geographical locations included -- prior to Adam and Eve being expelled from the garden. These would have been erased by Noah's universal flood.

Another problem is the very existence of Satan. His objective is to dethrone God. However, if he were to succeed the entire universal -- both physical and spiritual -- would cease to exist; including Satan himself. Is Satan on a suicide mission?

I posed these problems many times and have yet to receive a satisfactory response. Phreedm is welcome to respond, if he/she cares to do so.

Now, back the subject of Muslim terrorists...

Christians suck...

Seeker

You are arguing about what the fairies said when there is no evidence for the existence of fairies? Matter of fact, can you give an operational definition of fairies so that I might recognize them?

bernarda,

I've read several biographies of Robespierre and have yet to see any indication that he believed in theism. Some claim he was a deist.

In fact, he had no toleration for any opponents of the revolution. The Hebertists (atheists) were no exception). "Atheism is aristocratic," he wrote.

In his waning days, when some historians believe he was insane, he attempted to defer the religious from their traditions to the state by creating a state religion, "Cult of the Supreme Being" when his "Cult of Reason" failed to displace religion. Max, it turns out, positioned himself as the Supreme Being.

Here's an interesting bit of history:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/robespierre-supreme.html

Atheist wish to distance themselves from Robespierre. Who can blame them?

You're as bad as Dave. Both of you can make claims and when asked to back them up you both quickly change topics...

Wrong again. I'm not changing the subject on anybody... I'm just ignoring your ignorant ass.

Oh, and BTW; Thanks for the kind words Seeker.

What,

The soon to be indicted Rove? Yep, that's the one.

Are you refering to his role in the prosecution of the former Alabama Governor? I would love to see him in leg irons almost as much as I would love to see him swing from a rope.

Obama’s Former Pastor Getting $1.6M Home in Retirement

So another shepard sheers his flock. Big whoop. Tell me something I didn't already know.

BTW, do you hold yourself accountable for everything your preacher-man has ever said and done? If not, why the double standard? Oh wait, I forgot. It's standard operating proceedure for a Christian like yourself.

Sneaker,

In the United States the christian is the problem, they try to force their strange quackery on everyone. Almost every legal tender I receive has the disgusting phrase "In G** We Trust" on it, however, being a concerned citizen I almost always remove that phrase or change it to a family friendly statement such as the far more honest phrase (although not universally so) "In Dogs we trust".

Like all religions, christians follow and believe without question the babble that comes from the mouths of their preachers. The christian believes that the more destruction, the closer to geebus they are getting. The christian is seeking the destruction that will mark them as special and chosen as per the myth of their god-idea.

Anyone that doesn't believe in the preplanned destruction that is required of the christian will not be asking and hoping for that destruction. In order to have any hope of living in a peaceful and sustainable world, all god-ideas must be removed from the policy of society. Policy needs to be set according to facts and clear reasoning, not by catering to those that want to chase a fantasy to its destructive conclusion.

Removing all religion from governments does not guarantee sanity but it does lead to an environment in which reasoned and fact base policy can occur, that cannot happen with a government that respects religion.

rna2dna,

I don't disagree.

My points are...

that the head-lobbing, car-bombing, plane-crashing extremism of Islam is not characteristic of American evangelicals.

not all religionists are violent-prone extremists and not all atheists are rosy-cheeked pacifists.

Does it bother anyone that some of the above posts by atheists smack of the same puerile hatred of which we accuse religionists?

Sneaker,

Religionists use the weapons they have access to. The christians have access to weapons that allow them to control the air space over the world so the christians use bombs that are far more destructive than car bombs. The christian dominated government of the United States doesn't talk about the victims of their bombs because the christians don't want you to know about the innocent lives that they destroy. You can sympathize with the christians all you want but the christian destruction is still far greater.

As I stated before, removing respect for christianity from government does not guarantee sanity but, it does provide a platform where reasoning and facts can be used to set policy.

As christians have become frustrated while waiting, they have become increasingly forceful in trying to isolate and belittle others that do not believe in their fantasy.

Sneaker, I don't like christians because their goal is destruction and they force theirselves on innocent people. We have already tried to reason with the christians, however, the christian response was to ignore us. I will not give christians respect until the christians respect me.

Sneaker, have you contacted your government representatives and asked them to support the removal of the disgusting phrase from the legal currency of the United States? How about removal of the disgusting phrase from the Pledge of Allegiance? The christians are trying to force the United States to become a christian theocracy.

Unlike you Sneaker, I will not simply watch as the christians push their way to destroying the planet. Don't expect me to accept your love a christian message.

Suck it, jesus!

Seeker

that the head-lobbing, car-bombing, plane-crashing extremism of Islam is not characteristic of American evangelicals.

Your willingness to overlook what the radically xian Bush administration has done in Iraq and instead focus on the behavior of a relatively small number unrelated muslims is repulsive.

Does it bother anyone that some of the above posts by atheists smack of the same puerile hatred of which we accuse religionists?

Of which "we accuse"? Stop feigning atheism. I don't think anyone here is buying your schtick.

Ren

Are you refering to his role in the prosecution of the former Alabama Governor?

Yes indeedy I am.

... as much as I would love to see him swing from a rope.

Oh darn! The rope was a bit too long.

What:

Ren said...

Christian America is no better than the Muslim fanatics depicted in this film. We are simply more capable of killing on a greater scale.

I had just watched that movie and a lot of my friends and associates died in these terrorists’ attacks. America is NOT a Christian nation. Comparing Muslim fanatics to America is asinine.
If you believe war is sterile, then you are very naive. You do not drop a bomb and have it say, hmmm, it will only kill the enemy. It would be ideal but not reality.
Our war is not against Muslims but perhaps it should be. There is no outcry from the Muslim community when there is a terrorist attack. The terrorists live in the same Muslim communities. There is a large percentage of Muslims that do not want us to have personal freedoms. A large percentage of Muslims are just plain crazy fanatics.
We are at the beginning of a war that is not Christian against Muslim, or America against Muslim. It is a war for the freedom of all peoples.
Just to set the record straight. I do not believe we should have invaded Iraq. We should go after any that are responsible for the attacks against us. No matter what country or community they are hiding in. If innocent people are killed along with them, that is their fault for harboring them.
Those Muslims in this country that speak hate and intolerance of others need to be sent back to a country like Iran. They obviously do not believe in the American way and have no business in this country. Sedition needs to be dealt with quickly.
So Ren, your comment had three things that really pissed me off.
1. This is not a Christian America.
2. Comparing us to Muslim fanatics.
3. Your comment that we are simply more capable of killing on a greater scale. Are you implying that we enjoy it? These Muslim fanatics do enjoy it and want to kill all of us that are not Muslim. And the ‘peaceful Muslims’ are doing what to stop these acts?
If you have an idea on how we can get rid of these animals without hurting these innocents that they live among, then please let us know. I am sure you have the answer, genius.

Karen, I watched the video and believe he could have made it more graphic. For example, he did not show the entire beheading of Pearl.

I too have seen most of this before, but a piece here and a piece there. He has done nothing but put it all together in one film as a documentary.

Is anything he depicted incorrect?

By the way, Ren. You are not an idiot and I am sorry I flew of the hinge and called you one. In my opinion, it was your comments that were idiotic. I will try to control my fury in the future.

You just touched a very sensitive spot.

There was only one of your comments I agreed with, at all. And I agree 100%

Mankind will not truly be free until all religion is eradicated from the minds of everyone, the world over.

"FEAR THE LORD AND YOU WILL HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR"

I absolutely adore this!
It is on par with: Everything I say is a lie.
***

I haven't been following the discussions lately. Can someone explain the animosity toward Seeker. It seems out of proportion to what I've read.

Christ is in the Way-
You affirm that most xians are mindless robots who have nothing of value to add to a conversation/debate.
I would like to hear your evidence for the authenticity of the Adam and Eve story.

You have wasted many pixels on this blog, to this point.

DeepDiver,

Thanks for clarifying your statement. No offense taken.

While I am no idiot, I am not a genius either. But thanks anyways.

If you believe war is sterile, then you are very naive. You do not drop a bomb and have it say, hmmm, it will only kill the enemy. It would be ideal but not reality.

Unlike most of America, that believes war IS sterile, I know firsthand that it is not. That is why I am so wrapped around the axle about us starting a war against a country that had nothing whatsoever to do with the attacks against us on 9-11. How many hundreds of thousands of humans do we get to kill before it is WE that are the terrorists?

I have lost four soldier friends in this war, that I know of, and probably many more. I will never know how many of my friends have been maimed for life by it. Another big beef that I have is all the soldiers coming home without so much as a scratch on them, but their minds will forever be damaged, just like mine, from the carnage they have witnessed and been a part of.

America is NOT a Christian nation. Comparing Muslim fanatics to America is asinine.

I was not saying that America is a Christian nation, I was referring to the part of America that IS Christian. I was blaming the Christian majority for their blood lust in the run-up to the war in Iraq. The Christians and especially the Jews (Pearl, Feith etc..) that trumped up this war are, in fact, no better than the muslim fanatics that attacked the United States. I am sorry if you thought I was referring to ALL Americans. I was referring to the administration and their supporters.

Your comment that we are simply more capable of killing on a greater scale. Are you implying that we enjoy it?

Unfortunatly... Yes! There is a certain segment of the American population that very much enjoyed Shock and Awe. Think back to March of 2003 and what the attitude of the country was like at the time. I just saw on TV last night, again, for the thousandth time, the opening salvo in the war against Iraq. I remember people watching explosion after explosion in Baghdad, a city of over 5 million human beings, and cheering like it was a fourth of July clebration.

If you have an idea on how we can get rid of these animals without hurting these innocents that they live among, then please let us know. I am sure you have the answer, genius.

For starters, we never should have taken our eye off the ball in Afghanistan. I fully support our mission there, because the Taliban government gave safe haven to the terrorists that DID attack us. If every soldier currently in Iraq, was suddenly removed and sent to Afghanistan, I would not only NOT complain, I would cheer. The Afghan/Pakistan border is where we should be fighting terrorism, not in Iraq.

Invading Iraq because of 9-11 is the moral equivilent of invading Canada in order to stem the tide of illegal Mexicans flooding across our southern border.

Ren:
We are in agreement on much.

I was one that agreed with going to war with Iraq, but only because we have a leader that lied about the WMDs. I was pissed as hell when news came out about how we were misled. Sadam did not help by playing games with us by not following the international laws.

I would not lose one minute of sleep if Bush was charged with war crimes.

One thing keeps coming up though which is in need of correction.

People keep saying that we killed 100,000 people. How many were killed by the Muslims over there?

Seeker...you can't answer these questions?

Note, for example that the light and darkness (day and night) appeared, not the mention 24 hour days, before the sun was created on day four.

Another problem is the existence of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers -- their geographical locations included -- prior to Adam and Eve being expelled from the garden. These would have been erased by Noah's universal flood.

Another problem is the very existence of Satan. His objective is to dethrone God. However, if he were to succeed the entire universal -- both physical and spiritual -- would cease to exist; including Satan himself. Is Satan on a suicide mission?

Comment from: Ren

BTW, do you hold yourself accountable for everything your preacher-man has ever said and done? If not, why the double standard? Oh wait, I forgot. It's standard operating proceedure for a Christian like yourself.

Not before he bcame my preacher, but I certainly do hold him accountable for everything he does now...

Wouldn't you...?

You still are avoiding my original question...

DeepDiver,

People keep saying that we killed 100,000 people. How many were killed by the Muslims over there?

The numbers I have seen and tend to believe is over 600,000. IMHO, it doesn't really matter how many were killed by us, or by them. It was us that unleashed the dogs of war in that country, and therefore, are ultimatly responsible for every single death due to violence there. We are also responsible for all the deaths due to a breakdown of their society, i.e. people that got sick but would have been cured had it not been for the fact all the doctors were murdered or fled the country.

In the words of Colin Powell, "Pottery Barn Rules... We break it, we own it"

Not before he bcame my preacher, but I certainly do hold him accountable for everything he does now...

Wouldn't you...?

No! I wouldn't have a preacher in the first place. I am responsible for my own actions and to a great extent, those of my children.

I may not be a leader, but I'm no follower, either.

DD

What the hell are you trying to say. Even when you clarify your comments you just get in deeper.

We attacked Iraq without provocation. The WMD crap was a sham from the beginning and those of us that were actually paying attention knew so in feb 2003.

There is no way that this would have happened without the backing of the xian right. So this is very much a xian war.

Do you get it? We killed Iraqis that posed no threat to us.

If you really want to know what is going on with radical Muslims read The Far Enemy.

And get off this paranoid delusion about the islamobogeyman.

You are truly ignorant if you think Sadaam was misleading the US with respect to WMD. He said they had none and they HAD NONE.

The neocon PNAC (Project for New American Century) was pushing for an invasion of Iraq for many years and they found a convenient dolt in G. W. Bush.

Do your homework!

What,

I would like to add something to your statement above.

If having WMDs is the basis for invading another country, who is going to, and when are WE going to be invaded?

Not only does America have a stockpile of WMD capable of killing every living creature on the planet, several times over, but unlike the 'terrorists', we have actually used them. We used fosgene and mustard gasses during WWI and of course nuclear weapons during WWII.

WE also gave Saddam the ability to produce his own WMD, by training his scientists at the University of Missouri in the early 80s, and then looked the other way while American and European companies supplied him with the precursor chemicals to produce said weapons. Then we gave him sattelite data on Iranian troop locations in order for him to use them more effectivly. If we were going to invade Iraq because of WMD, it should have been done in the late 80s, after the Anfal campaign and the Halabja incident.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/ANFALINT.htm

http://www.kdp.se/old/chemical.html

To our great credit, we are currently destroying our stockpile of biological and chemical weapons, but that has more to do with the fact they are old and unstable than to the fact we are humanitarians. Bio-Chem weapons were outlawed by the Geneva Conventions shortly after WWI, but the United States continued to manufacture them up until the early 1980s.

DeepDiver

Is anything he depicted incorrect?

Not that I know of. It all seemed to be taken from news clips edited together.

Ren

I fully understand why you couldn't watch it. In fact, I thought of you while I was watching it. That's partly why I wondered if my heart has become a bit too hardened to the sight of this kind of graphic violence. I still think that images of the war should be blazing on the evening news in our country, forcing our citizens to be aware of the carnage we're inflicting. Make people uncomfortable while they're eating dinner, safe in their homes as the damage is inflicted "over there".

Seeker

I think the Christians are every bit as dangerous as the Muslims; they're just more subtle and not as ham-handed. Witness how they have insinuated their influence into our government and manipulated this war.

what said:

Of which "we accuse"? Stop feigning atheism. I don't think anyone here is buying your schtick.

that reminds me of a story I heard once, or twice... or actually a few times.

this devoutly religious man was exposed as a murderer/pedophile/adulterer/druggie/gay/into wet suits/whatever. when his fellow flockers found out, what did they say?

"oh, he must not have been a REAL christian" or "he must not have had CHRIST in his heart".

so, don't go following suit by applying the no-true-scottsman fallacy to seeker. he may not be right about a few things, he may not be quite as developed in his atheism as some people, but we have no reason to call him a liar just because we don't agree with him.

Comment from: karen

I still think that images of the war should be blazing on the evening news in our country, forcing our citizens to be aware of the carnage we're inflicting. Make people uncomfortable while they're eating dinner, safe in their homes as the damage is inflicted "over there".

Agreed...they should also show full images of the carnage from abortions...

A first trimester abortion is little more than a clot of blood and a tiny blob of tissue. The "carnage from abortions" to which you allude (discernible body parts) are from the now illegal and always incredibly rare "partial birth abortions" which the loony xians love to mislead people into thinking are what an early abortion looks like. More lies for Jesus from True Christians™.

So Alex...2000 babies torn apart is misleading the public?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/18/AR2007041802428.html?hpid=topnews

At what count would you consider to be to many?

You are the one who is attempting to mislead...

However I don't want to derail this thread into an abortion debate...

I agree with Karen that the horrors of war should be shown every night...
INCLUDING the 9/11 attacks which many networks refuse to show...

Off Topic

Does anyone here think there is any chance that a world court organization will ask for a trail against Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield et al and what would the new president's reaction be?

What:

Chill out and study this link.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4996218

I have done my homework.

Again, I am pissed we were lied to by the administration. Yes we should have not gone there. What else do you want me to say?

Sadam played with us and the international community. He was responsible for the deaths of many hundreds of thousands. Is he a hero of yours. I have seen you slam our country, but not one word against Sadam.

watched the film. Interesting that there are similar passages in the Judeo-Xian Old Testament about killing anyone who is not your religion, as well as specific ways to do it. Perhaps Islam is no more violent than the others (or at least how the others *used* to be).

Islam is a newer cult than judaism or xianity and as such has yet to undergo it's own moderating Enlightenment. Ancient judaism and Medieaval xianity were just as brutal as modern day islam but in those days weapons of mass destruction were sticks and stones and swords and horses not planes and nuclear bombs.

Wow, where to begin?

Karen,

Thank you so much for thinking of me as you watched the horrors of that vile film. I agree that every horror of war should be blasted on every channel of every TV until the public 'gets it'. That is to say, war is hell, no really, it is hell on earth. Of course, no need to be one sided about it. Show all sides and all the atrocities until it is burned into the brains of every living human being that, "WAR, uh good god y'all, what is it good for? Absolutly nothin'! Say it again."

However I don't want to derail this thread into an abortion debate...

WTF? Did our phreddy say that? Maybe there is a god, afterall.

DeepDiver,

I will be the first to admit that Saddam was a bastard, but he was our bastard in the region for a long time and on our dime. The world is better off without him and his thug sons. Like you, I am sure, I just don't think so many innocents deserved to die or be maimed to get rid of him. Now, if he had attacked us, or threatened to attack us, then all I can say is, "Game on." I am guessing that is how you felt in March of '03?

foot152,

A fella can dream, can't he?

alex,

Very well stated!

Alex, I have heard the same, 'but we can not bear to wait for Islam to mature to the somewhat peaceful level xtianity professes to be'. I am paraphrasing of course, but I believe that is close to the quote I heard.

Ren, don't forget the Shaw, Noriega, etc. We seem to not learn from history.

I do not think any innocents deserve to die, or be maimed, but until there is a weapon that can target ONLY those we want to hit, innocent ones will unfortunately pay the price.

Ren

Just to be clear, I don't connect you to the vile images of the war. I was thinking of how the images would be triggers for you and how they would affect you. And I did mean for all sides of it to be covered.

Ren

If we were going to invade Iraq because of WMD, it should have been done in the late 80s, after the Anfal campaign and the Halabja incident.

What happened in Halabja is anything but clear. Here is a NYTimes opinion piece that everyone should have read in jan 2003 but did not.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/020303C.htm

DD

Chill out and study this link.

I know the timeline like the back of my hand. If you have a point to make then make it.

Sadam played with us and the international community.

Sorry to burst your bubble (later than most) but it is the USA that played the UN.

He was responsible for the deaths of many hundreds of thousands.

Not nearly as many as you have been lead to believe. Read the op/ed piece at the link I provided above.

Is he a hero of yours.

Any more juvenile neocon-ass-kissing questions?

I have seen you slam our country, but not one word against Sadam.

Sorry, its a tradition with me to take responsibility for my actions and my countries actions. As I am sure you are aware by now the whole patriotism thing is over-rated.

As I am sure you are aware by now the whole patriotism thing is over-rated.

Not if you are lucky enough to have American citizenship. USA! USA! USA!

Seriously, living here is like winning the fucking lottery in life for those who get off their arse and do something instead of just sitting around bitching all the time. I'm the first to crticize American policy but not the opportunities to be found here.

/Flag waving rant over

Alex

USA! USA! USA!

Will you be chanting if we invade Iran based on phoney intel?

paraphrasing from someone...

dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

I'll bet all the people who got caught up in Germany's nationalist fervor in the 1930's and 40's felt pretty darn silly after it was all over.

- seeker, I don't think that anyone thinks that atheists are all pacifists. As far as I can tell, the main instigators of the Iraq War, the necons, mostly seem to be non-believers.

- Apparently nationalist fervor has declined somewhat. Did you hear fans loudly booing Bush at the opening game of the baseball season?

what:
From what country are you?