NoGodBlog.com

No kids here, but I do live in the Southern bible Belt and can certainly understand why homeschooling would be appealing to some progressives. At the same time, I support the California requirement because it makes sure the parent knows enough to teach. The idea that one is qualified to education children simply because of one's age is absurd. Nobody wants the meth-heads in my community raising children, much less teaching them!

Court of Appeal Grants Petition for Re-hearing

On March 25, the California Court of Appeal granted a motion for rehearing in the 'In re Rachel L.' case--the controversial decision
which purported to ban all homeschooling in that state unless the
parents held a teaching license qualifying them to teach in public
schools.

http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/CA/200803261.asp

• Considering that the academic of homeschoolers excels that of government school students, the question should be: Who should be certifying whom?

• Most readers of this blog will appreciate Neal Boortz views on relgiion, you will also appreciate his enlightened views of separation of school and state.

http://boortz.com/more/rules_kids_wont_learn_in_school.html

• Free thinkers will appreciate the views of Peter Brimelow in Worm In The Apple: How The Teacher Unions Are Destroying American Education

http://books.google.com/books?id=V8ajlBalAkEC&dq=worm+in+the+apple+how+the+teacher+unions+are+destroying+american+education&pg=PP1&ots=lrxwrki3sr&sig=bQZ-I_mBKzFh_a4XnZp4UGGR6TM&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=HPND,HPND:2006-26,HPND:en&q=Worm+In+The+Apple:+How+The+Teacher+Unions+Are+Destroying+American+Education&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail

• For more on Separation of School and state:

http://www.schoolandstate.org/home.htm

Sure, I don't see why rational people wouldn't support having the choice of homeschooling. Just because a lot of nuts do it doesn't mean it's only good for nuts.

I have two children and thankfully can afford to have them in private school. If I coudn't, they'd be home schooled. There's not a situation where I'd place them in a government school.

This decision bothers me a bit, but I guess liberals feel all kids should be government educated. Hmmm didn't Marx and Hitler have some certain thoughts about government and education.

As Seeker has already stated, homeschool kids are, on average, more intelligent than kids educated in public schools.

We're supposed to be rational, we should only care about results and evidence.

I don't have kids and I don't know the details of homeschooling. Are homeschooled children required to take the same "no child left behind" tests? Are children in non-public schools required?

How are children measured to determine which (or if any) system is better or even adequate?
From there, are the teachers to take the credit/blame?

I am a father and support home schooling ONLY if the kids have a monitored set of state tests each year that prove they are getting an education, especially in the sciences. If they fail, then it would have to be mandatory that they go to a public school the following year.

brad14146,

I would consider myself to be liberal. However, I want the government to do the least amount. I think children should be educated in what ever manner works effectively for them. But, of course, that is the problem with everything. What is effective? What is the purpose of education? Are we trying to create future employees, future christians, future liberals, future fill-in-the-blank. Everyone has an agenda, except perhaps, the children.

Define the problem, agree to metrics and time scale, and we can all agree on the results... Maybe..

This decision bothers me a bit, but I guess liberals feel all kids should be government educated.

I'm glad you aren't homeschooling your children because it appears you wouldn't be up to the job, at least in the reading comprehension department. In your blind rush to smear the caricature you have of "liberals" you failed to realize that the decision doesn't require children to go to "government schools."

We have seen time and again that in Texas and other states, the teaching of science is no longer being allowed and neither is health for children, i.e., abstinence for sex ed. So if you can't afford private education, what can you do for your child?

I doubt a homeschooled child taught real sex ed. or darwinism is going to pass a Bush education test since it will want some damn foolishness on genesis, not reality.

This of course not count for those in Massachusetts or other states where they try to teach reality.

As for the effectiveness of homeschooling, in those instances where the child is taken out of public education because of mostly racists reasons masquerading as religious, the test results do not measure up to the public education system.

Comment from: Peter

As for the effectiveness of homeschooling, in those instances where the child is taken out of public education because of mostly racists reasons masquerading as religious, the test results do not measure up to the public education system.

Got a link to prove this claim...?

Or are you simply using your opinion as fact...?

If I had a kid I would not send them to a state sponsored indoctrination facility for creating obedient worker drones aka public school. My kid would go to private school. As long as there is some oversight and standards to be met then I'm all for homeschooling.

Peter, Here is one link that would prove that homeschooling is more effective.
http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/

Damn! I want to homeschool my kids someday when I have 'em.

baresht1,

You sound more libertarian than liberal.

:-)

Comment from: phreedm

Got a link to prove this claim...?

Or are you simply using your opinion as fact...?

...the way phreakshow does on a regular basis whenever he comments on this site? How dare you! Don't you know that only religiously insane Republican't Putsch fellators are allowed to make unfounded, unsourced allegations, and using their opinions as fact?

If you don't, I'm relatively sure you'll see another example of phreakshow trying to utilize this standard tactic of occult superstitionists who don't have an intellectual leg to stand on when they try to claim their pagan fantasies have any connection to reality.

Suck it, jeebus phreak!

As to the question at hand: I would say that it depends on the home schooling in question. If they can pass the standard tests, then it matters not what else they try and cram into the youthful melons under their control. It might matter a bit further down the line (if, say, they grow up to be a blinkered philistine who ignores his familial duties in order to spout religious insanity on an atheists-oriented blog) as far as their ability to interact with their fellow humans in an intelligent and respectful manner. If they are intelligent and resourceful they will be able to get past any indoctrination and form their own attitudes and opinions about life, the universe, and everything. If not, there will be a intellectual heir for the phreakshows of the world.

...this group of home school parents has more formal education than parents in the general population; the median income for home school families is significantly higher than that of all families with children in the United States; and almost all home school students are in married couple families. Because this was not a controlled experiment, the study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools and the results must be interpreted with caution.

As you can read above from your site baresht1, this does not support the proposition that home schooled children are any better educated. If all parents who home school have two person households and one or both have advanced degrees and higher than average incomes, then yes, their children could be educated at home pretty well with the additional resources. But if they have all these resources, then why don't they send their children to private schools?

As for our little troll, I don't need no damn web site to tell me what I experience right here in Virginia. Robertson and Falwell both abhorred the situation when the schools were integrated and called for all white parents to pull their children out of public schools. They did. Most went into sectarian schools and the rest were home schooled.

As for the comment from alexatheist: "a state sponsored indoctrination facility for creating obedient worker drones", you left out the main reason for public education. It is not to educate, but to produce obedient children who can grow up to be obedient cannon foughter and die when they are told.

bareshtl,

Peter, Here is one link that would prove that homeschooling is more effective.
http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/

Actually, no it doesn't.

Here's a quote from the study:

Because this was not a controlled experiment, the study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools and the results must be interpreted with caution. The report clearly suggests, however, that home school students do quite well in that educational environment.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were on the side of the homeschooled kids.

While I won't suggest that homeschooled kids aren't as "intelligent" (whatever that means), it does bother me that they aren't necessarily introduced to other walks of life.

I read the link that Seeker provided about the lessons that kids don't learn in school and personally I think most of that is bullshit. I learned many of those lessons at an early age, most of them while I was in public school.

I still have to maintain that the responsibility of education ultimately falls on the student's shoulders, not the school's or the parent's (though they do, of course, have some responsibility). If the kids want to learn, they will. When I was in school, most of the kids simple didn't care.

From a personal perspective

Although we could easily afford private schools we have put our children in public school. Reason: Where we live the public schools are just as good if not better than the private schools and they both do a good job.

From a public policy perspective
It is crucial that those teaching children are certified to do so whether at home, private schools or public schools.

In my experience it appears that the proponents of uncredentialed homeschooling are also the proponents of stricter credentialing in public schools.

If I procreated, public school would not be considered. The dumbest of the group who will never attend higher ed hold the rest of the college bound back, and students are treated like prisoners.

That and the fact that my wife & I are more intelligent than the vast majority of public school teachers as well.

I don't have kids, but I was homeschooled so I guess I have a usefull opinion on this.

there are two reasons to homeschool kids. the first is because you want them to learn something you're worried they wont in public schools. the second is because you want them NOT to learn something you're worried they WILL in public schools.

my mother had her certificate to teach up to 6th grade, and I think the reason she homeschooled us is that she wanted to spend the TIME to really teach us things. she spent an impressive amount of time creating, among other things, posterboard diagrams of natural processes and an array of bead and wire figures so that we could more easily visualize mathematics. I've never seen a more impressive array of tools in any elementary school.

this is in contrast to parents who send away for creationist literature to feed their kids, and basically just have them doing worksheets and watching "educational" videos from charlatans.

homeschooled kids should have to perform on a test designed by some teachers association.

Actually if I ever had kids the Chapel Hill public school system is ranked near the top among all public school systems in the country so private school might not be necessary in my neighbourhood. Kids around here tend to have wealthy white or East Asian parents with advanced degrees and high end careers so the public schools are held to a much higher standard by folks here than most other places. My 1esbian friend does keep asking for my sperm so who knows?

Comment from: Peter

As for our little troll, I don't need no damn web site to tell me what I experience right here in Virginia

So much for credibility...

And here I thought Peter might actually have an intelligent, informative thread...

And I'm sure one of the villiage idots will make the argument...public schools must accept all students...

Sorry ));tom;((...didn't mean to steal your thunder...

Comment from: FlyingWeasel

homeschooled kids should have to perform on a test designed by some teachers association.

Really? You were homeschooled? And you make such a statement...?

The big problem with homeschooling is
teaching the kids how to be social since they are lacking it by not interacting with the other kids. How do you teach social skills without experience?

We can go round and round about opinions on homeschooling vs public education, but this court case has much deeper ramifications...

The question one must ask, are children merely resources of the "State"?

The recent ruling in Califoria is a direct result of the impact of "humanism" upon the public school system.

"Education is thus the most powerful ally of Humanism, and every American public school is a school of Humanism." ... 1930 publication, entitled Humanism: a New Religion, by Charles Francis Potter.

It's rather ironic that many on this board show a concern over this ruling and would also classify themselves as a humanist...

Our nation is built on the concept that "rights" come from the Creator and not from the state. The Declaration of Independence being the birth certificate to the Constitution...

This is a classic problem with atheists attempting to claim the USA as a secular nation. For if the rights do not come from "a creator" then they must come from the state...

The issue of what the state may or not do in regards to education has already been settled in several cases...one being Pierce v. Society of Sisters case...

1. The fundamental theory of liberty upon which all governments of this Union rest excludes any general power of the State to standardize its children by forcing them to accept instruction from public teachers only. P. 535.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0268_0510_ZS.html

The appeals court responsible for this ruling has agreed to hear this case again...

This ruling will be overturned...

Comment from: Jaydave

The big problem with homeschooling is
teaching the kids how to be social since they are lacking it by not interacting with the other kids.

This is actually another myth...

Recent studies have shown that the structured socialization within the public schools is actually more detrimental to a childs development...
(for 12 years only being exposed to kids the same age. Not like the one room school house of years gone by).

I will agree that it's the "negative soicalization" that is one of the deciding factors to homeschool...

Comment from: What

Where we live the public schools are just as good if not better than the private schools and they both do a good job.

And what part of the country would that be...?

phreedm:

absolutely. my mom homeschooled me because she cared enough to make sure my brothers and I got the best possible education, not because she was afraid of the standards set by entities such as the national center for science education or other teachers associations.

if the goal of homeschooling is to provide a BETTER education than can be provided in a public school, then homeschoolers should not be afraid to measure themselves against the public standards. if they come out ahead, then good for them. parents who get involved in their kids education are a good thing in my mind, as long as they are getting involved to fight FOR their kids education, not to hinder it.

I don't care how much you stress to your kid that evolution is only a scientific theory supported by the massive preponderance of evidence, as long as they UNDERSTAND evolutionary theory as it is commonly accepted, not the claptrap strawman that creationists rant about.

and if your kid fails the test, and goes to public school, where he fails those tests as well, then at least you cant pretend that he's had a valid education. maybe he can still be a televangelist.

This is a classic problem with atheists attempting to claim the USA as a secular nation. For if the rights do not come from "a creator" then they must come from the state...

This is a classic problem with theists claiming that freedoms have to come from a creator. If freedoms have to come from a creator, then those freedoms are at the whim of the fickle public that claims to communicate with that creator.

rights don't come "from" anywhere. they aren't "things". rights do not come "from" the state, they are GAURANTEED to us by that state, the state being a public trust.

to simplify that for you, our rights come from US. from ALL OF US agreeing that we will not stand to see someone else lose the rights that we have won for ourselves from one another. the only right I will take from you is the right to take my rights from me. you have the right to a free education, and we have decided as a nation that there are times when we must gaurantee rights to children when their parents will not. thats why we don't allow child labor, or allow parents to beat their children.

now I don't want to take peoples kids from them and send to to state-run "education camps" or something, but if I see a kid starving I'm damn sure gonna make sure his parents are feeding him. by the same token, I'm going to make sure his parents are providing for him the same educational opportunity that we gaurantee for all children. if you want to keep your kids out of public school, then TEACH HIM THE MATERIAL YOURSELF, thats FINE. as I said before, you don't have to beleive it. you just have to understand it.

phred:
I was always under the crazy assumption that our rights are of, by & for the people?

After all, I haven't seen any holy book contain anything closely resembling the BOR or Constitution.

"On average, homeschool students in grades one to four performed one grade level above their age-level public/private school peers on achievement tests. Students who had been homeschooled their entire academic life had higher scholastic achievement test scores than students who had also attended other educational programs."

Source: Educational Resources Information Center (ERIC) and funded by the Office of Educational Research and Improvement, U.S. Department of Education

"...academic achievement was equally high regardless of whether the student was enrolled in a full-service curriculum, or whether the parent had a state-issued teaching certificate."

"Even with a conservative analysis of the data, the achievement levels of the homeschool students in the study were exceptional. Within each grade level and each skill area, the median scores for homeschool students fell between the 70th and 80th percentile of students nationwide and between the 60th and 70th percentile of Catholic/Private school students. For younger students, this is a one year lead. By the time homeschool students are in 8th grade, they are four years ahead of their public/private school counterparts."

Link to National Home Education Research Institute:

http://www.nheri.org/

Related...

Here's Drew Carey (presumed atheist) on teachers unions and how they screw up government schools.

http://reason.tv/video/show/60.html

It will always be apples to oranges until we compare public schools to home schools where the home schools have 30 or more children to the parent teacher.

MX:

If I procreated, public school would not be considered. The dumbest of the group who will never attend higher ed hold the rest of the college bound back, and students are treated like prisoners.

That and the fact that my wife & I are more intelligent than the vast majority of public school teachers as well.

Did you attend public school? If so, then your point is moot.

Secondly, that boasting B.S. about being more intelligent than most public school teachers does nothing to further your position. It only makes you look like a self-important ass with an exaggerated sense of your own intellect.

How could you possibly prove (or know) you're more intelligent than most public school teachers? This declaration coming from someone who posted earlier that they only consider evidence is particularly contradictory.


---------------


And regarding the subject of this thread, I’m against home schooling for a number of reasons. First, there is a certain social aspect many seem to be overlooking. What will the ramifications of eliminating the benefits of children being forced to act independently of their parents while interacting with their peers? In this sense, home schooling may severely limit the social development of children, in my opinion. And secondly, I see home schooling as one of the worst forms of parental tyranny. The majority of families that I personally know that home school do so to keep tight control over the information their children receive. They are usually keeping them home to more effectively indoctrinate their children into their faith and limit their children’s exposure to information that conflicts with their particular holy book. Some even use it to keep their children from being exposed to ethnic groups — one of the worst forms of racism.

I have seen very little evidence that home schooling is any more effective than the public education system, and when one considers the motives and social implications of home schooling, the benefits of public education — at least for me — far outweigh those of home schooling.

Our nation is built on the concept that "rights" come from the Creator and not from the state.

If this were so, then everyone the entire world over, would enjoy the same rights we have here in America. The truth of the matter is; our rights come from the constitution, not from some omnicreator.

Ren,

I believe the idea is that the Constitution does not grant rights, but rather protects rights that are inherent to every human.

And as educated people (i.e., not 4-F Freedy) know, it does not mention a "Creator."

DvanW.

many homeschoolers are part of homeschooling groups, which meet for group activities at varying frequencies depending on the group. (regretably, most will meet at churches, my group usually met at a local rec center)

the only social handicap I experienced was a (near crippling) ignorance of fashion and pop culture during my first year of public school.

in retrospect, considering the fashion and pop culture prevalent amongst most middleschoolers, I'm almost entirely certain that it was more of a boon than a burden.

however, I'll concede that your point is at least mostly valid. if I had been thrust into the world of college or work rather than middle school, I might well have suffered more than a little temporary social awkwardness.

the truth is that a college education has become almost prerequisite to succeed in our society today, and education can no longer happen entirely beneath the wing of our parents. kids should have some time to adapt to a new social environment while they're still under parental care. public schools provide a valuable resource to that end.

Our nation is built on the concept that "rights" come from the Creator and not from the state.

Not true. The Declaration of Independence doesn't say 'THE Creator' it says, 'THEIR Creator'. Neither the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights mentions your God, or any other form of a creator (I think, it’s been a long time since I read them).

And secondly, rights are granted by the society in which we live — not by your God. If it were the case that your God is the one mandating human rights, then we would still own slaves and stone people to death for adultery. But as a society, we have elected a higher moral standard than your God would have us follow... mostly.

One word: Socialization.

Further, in response to Baresht1:

did you read the abstract?

"Because this was not a controlled experiment, the study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools and the results must be interpreted with caution."

Home schooled students may perform well on standardized tests, but there are confounding variables. Are the individual families who are able to school these kids in a different economic strata? Yes. Are the parent populations better educated? Yes. Do children with wealthy, educated parents generally fare well academically? Yes.

My opinion is not empirical, I grant that, but every home-schooled person I have met has been an isolated, self interested, naive brat (there were a good lot of them in my home town). A benefit of public school is that it doesn't churn out self interested ninnies nor the patrician brats of private school.

Should the American people have the option? Absolutely. Without a doubt.

But does it better educate? I do doubt that. Kids who get home-schooled would probably already excel in any academic environment.

Comment from: FlyingWeasel

This is a classic problem with theists claiming that freedoms have to come from a creator. If freedoms have to come from a creator, then those freedoms are at the whim of the fickle public that claims to communicate with that creator.

Wow...have you missed the boat. It was the Magna Carta that was one of the first attempts to limit the state.

rights don't come "from" anywhere. they aren't "things".

Just things? Yikes!!! So, just like the eternal universe, these rights just exist? No creating force?

rights do not come "from" the state, they are GAURANTEED to us by that state, the state being a public trust.

Who backs the guarantee? Exactly how do you guarantee my rights to life...?

No offense, but your views of how our nation was founded is frightening...

Comment from: mxracer652

I was always under the crazy assumption that our rights are of, by & for the people?

Glad to set you straight...

You've got the Gettysburg address mixed into your early American History...

Comment from: DVanWechel

The Declaration of Independence doesn't say 'THE Creator' it says, 'THEIR Creator'.

Wow...how weak.

Neither the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights mentions your God, or any other form of a creator (I think, it’s been a long time since I read them).

Of course they do...try reading them before making such a blanket statement...

And secondly, rights are granted by the society in which we live — not by your God.

Speaking of education...or lack of.

Rights are NOT granted by society. Period. Our rights are based upon a piece of paper known as the Constitution, which was the fruit of debate based upon the concept spelled out in the Declaration of Independence...

baresht1 -
It will always be apples to oranges until we compare public schools to home schools where the home schools have 30 or more children to the parent teacher.

True. It argues in favor of home schools. Teachers frequently complain of class size and parental involvement. Both are resolved through home schools.

There was a study released about one year ago which compared private to public school performance in reading and mathematics. I might be able to find it if my word is not good enough (never should be). The study, which was suppressed by BushCo, concluded that there was no significant difference between public and private schools (secular and religious) with respect to reading performance. There was also no significant difference between public and secular private schools with respect to math performance but the private religious schools did significantly worse than the public and secular private schools. No homeschooling info was available.

Phreedum,

Of course they do...try reading them before making such a blanket statement...

I did. You're a liar. No mention of a God, Gods or Creator in the U.S. constitution, including the first ten amendments (i.e., the bill of rights).

Maybe you could point out the amendments that mention a god or creator? I must have missed them.

Rights are NOT granted by society. Period. Our rights are based upon a piece of paper known as the Constitution, which was the fruit of debate based upon the concept spelled out in the Declaration of Independence...

Good one Phreeliar! You’re always good for a laugh. Not only does your post not address my point (i.e, that your God is responsible for deciding what human rights to grant us) but it also shows a complete lack of understanding as to the constitution's purpose. It wasn't created to grant us rights, it was created to protect them — therefore, our rights are not ‘based’ on the constitution.

F'ing idiot.

It's natural selection at work. The teachers' unions and the dominionists are in competition with each other to destroy education.

My goodness! It looks like phreakshow's sleeping on the couch these days. How else can one explain the inordinate amount of time a fifty-something year old supposedly happily married man with kids spends trolling an atheistweb site?

Comment from: phreedm

Comment from: Peter

As for our little troll, I don't need no damn web site to tell me what I experience right here in Virginia

So much for credibility...

...says the phreakish troll with no credibility of its' own.

And here I thought Peter might actually have an intelligent, informative thread...

...so you figured you'd sully it up with your superstitious nonsense? Good job, phreakshow!

And I'm sure one of the villiage idots will make the argument...public schools must accept all students...

...actually, it looks like the village idiot is supporting private schooling, based on the trollish comments you have left here so far.

Sorry ));tom;((...didn't mean to steal your thunder...

At least now you're admitting you're a thief. Acceptance that you have a problem is the first step…

Comment from: phreedm

We can go round and round about opinions on homeschooling vs public education, but this court case has much deeper ramifications...

The question one must ask, are children merely resources of the "State"?

No, the question one must ask is: why does a phreaskishly ignorant religiously insane troll continue to think it has the right to ask questions of others, when it cannot answer any asked of it?

Comment from: phreedm

Comment from: Jaydave


The big problem with homeschooling is
teaching the kids how to be social since they are lacking it by not interacting with the other kids.

This is actually another myth...

...says the person who is actually the main propagator of mythical fantasies on this blog.

Recent studies have shown that the structured socialization within the public schools is actually more detrimental to a childs development... (for 12 years only being exposed to kids the same age. Not like the one room school house of years gone by).

Please provide some sort of proof for this unsourced, unfounded allegation.

Comment from: phreedm

Wow...how weak.

Of course they do...try reading them before making such a blanket statement...

Project much? Typical religiously insane hypocrisy - calling others to task for the very things that they engage in on a constant basis.

Try working on your own strengths before you call others weak. Logical discussion and rational argument would be one place for you to start where you are sorely lacking in any sort of credibility on the subject, and merely expose yourself as a hypocritical fool by criticizing others for what you do around here all the time.

It would also be useful if you were to stop dispensing with the religiously insane blanket statements before you denigrate others for doing that very thing.

You religiously insane, chickensh!t, chickenhawk, hypocritical Republican't Putsch fellator. Suck it, jeebus phreak!

I went to public school, and learned a lot! My teachers were concerned, intelligent adults. My peers were easy to get along with. I even learned how to prevent pregnancy at my public school. I chose to not breed.

Maybe everything has changed since 1982?

DVan:

How could you possibly prove (or know) you're more intelligent than most public school teachers?

Testing scores, educational achievement, wordly experience, head to head competition, et cetera.

Yikes... ));tom(( must have learned his "blocks" in the public school...

Comment from: DVanWechel

constitution's purpose. It wasn't created to grant us rights, it was created to protect them — therefore, our rights are not ‘based’ on the constitution.

Hmmm...exactly. It was created to "protect" our rights. What rights? The rights spelled out in the Declaration of Independence...

Those rights given to us by "the" Creator... (in case you missed it. A capital "C").

And as I suspected, you have merely read the "Bill of Rights" and consider that the entire Constitution...

Try reading the actual document...then get back to me...

Comment from: phreedm

Try reading the actual document...then get back to me...

Try actually reasponding to actual questions actually asked of you before you actually ask others to actually read and get back to you.

Phreakshow must have 'learned' his debatering and strategery in a religiously insane private school...

This is really important and could save someone close to you. I had heard it before but now it seems to be endorsed.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/03/31/moh.cpr/index.html?eref=rss_us

Let's assume that given the current number of home schooled versus public schooled kids, that home schooled kids do better by some objective measure such as standardized tests. That doesn't mean home schooling is superior.

Most people are well aware that they don't have the education, skills, temperment, finances or gall to attempt home schooling their children, so they wisely send them to public schools. If [i]everybody[/i] home schooled, the average performance would drop like a rock.

comment from: Alatham: "While I won't suggest that homeschooled kids aren't as "intelligent" (whatever that means), it does bother me that they aren't necessarily introduced to other walks of life."

What bothers you? I am a mother of 2 ethical, caring and freethinking children. (BTW...I have homeschooled them from birth AND we now reside in the Bible Belt) We have lived around the World and my children are more social than any adult I have ever met. And they aren't sitting in a ridiculously, unrealistic setting of peers all of the same age. I'm not certain of what you meant by 'walks of life'. Could you elaborate? Do you mean humans only or ???
I'm wondering if you passed 'English'. Your grammatics are horrific. And I'm impressed by your choice of words (bullshit). Wow, way to get your point across!

Comment from Peter: "..I don't need no damn website..." I'm wondering if you have graduated from elementary school.

It 'bothers me' when someone comes upon a thread and drops their opinion without doing their 'homework'. Please leave.

Poor 4-F freedy... never lets his complete ignorance get in the way of his rants...

Of course God is not mentioned in the Constitution... everybody knows this fact...

Except the willfully ignorant...

first off, a definition of "rights"

–noun 18. a just claim or title, whether legal, prescriptive, or moral: You have a right to say what you please.
19. Sometimes, rights. that which is due to anyone by just claim, legal guarantees, moral principles, etc.: women's rights; Freedom of speech is a right of all Americans.

(from dictionary.com)

Wow...have you missed the boat. It was the Magna Carta that was one of the first attempts to limit the state

ok, thats fine. we live in a constitutional republic, we elect lawmakers and public servants who are bound by a constitution. that constitution was the result of public discourse, and amendmants to that constitution are a result of public discourse. In what way is "god" involved? the 19th amendmant seems pretty contrary to most biblical teaching. the 18th amendmant was pretty biblical, but it was repealed after it led to widespread organized crime. I'm sorry, but this is not what we would expect out of a document based on immutable laws handed down from an inhuman agent.

Just things? Yikes!!! So, just like the eternal universe, these rights just exist? No creating force?

no, I said they AREN'T "things". "right" in the context we're using is an abstract noun. it exists only as a concept acted upon by people.

Who backs the guarantee? Exactly how do you guarantee my rights to life...?

No offense, but your views of how our nation was founded is frightening...

your fellow citizens back the guarantee by (predominantly) respecting and enforcing laws based on the constitution. this is a "you got my back, I got yours" situation. do you imagine that god protects my right to free speech? what about my right to keep and bear arms? how about my right to the freedom to worship (or not worship) as I please?

and if he does, why do we need an army? for that matter, why do we need an expansive court system to identify and punish threats to the public?

society is built by people to protect themselves and provide an environment in which we can live (more or less) peacefully. at every level it is PEOPLE who protect the rights which WE have set forth for ourselves. show me one example to the contrary.

jeff_r:

good point, we should keep in mind that parents who aren't capable of educating their wretched spawn typically don't try.

typically.

one more thing phreedm.

you should be damn glad that you have flesh and blood people protecting your rights for you, because if all you had was god you can be damn sure we'd have japanese imperialists on our backs like white on rice.

I don't really know why I even bother but...

The 10 commandments and the Constitution and our Bill or Rights are 180 degrees out of sync with each other.

Show me 1 commandment in our Constitution or Bill of Rights.

DeepDiver,

Not to mention the fact that the only group in the Bible that had anything resembling our system of government was the Romans, who aren't really considered the "good guys" of the book.

A true "Christian" government would be organized around an infallible king whose authority comes not from the people but from the godhead. Pretty much the exact opposite of what we have in America, although very much like what the founders of our country revolted against. This irony is lost on the ignorant, like 4-F phreedy.

pastahead,

You mistook my tone and argument. In a sea of text, it's best to give the benefit of the doubt.

The thing that bothers me is exactly as I stated. It bothers me that home schooled children aren't necessarily introduced to other walks of life.

I never even came close to arguing against home schooling, per se. I have no problem with it. But it does bother me that some home schoolers will purposefully shelter their children from the real world. I used the word "necessarily" because children in public schools cannot be sheltered as completely as those in home school.

Granted, it could be argued that those in certain parts of the country will necessarily be more sheltered than others, but this is not something that affects public schools universally, only locally.

I'm surprised that you don't know what I meant by "walks of life," but I'll clarify just the same. It's a (possibly colloquial) term referring to several aspects of a person's life. People who come from different economic, social, or political backgrounds are said to come from different walks of life. I was again decrying the possibility of home schooled children being sheltered from diverse experiences.

I never meant to imply that home schooling is wrong, just that some home schoolers are not helping their children by way of eliminating diversity. Whether or not they make up a large or small percentage, I cannot say. I'm honestly surprised that you came to that conclusion when reading my post.

Also, "grammatics" isn't a word. You're the pot calling the kettle black here. Only my grammar is just fine, so I'm no kettle. Granted, I did use the wrong form of "simple." Such is the danger of changing your phrasing halfway through typing a sentence.

Finally, can you think of a better word than "bullshit"? It perfectly encapsulates how I feel about the argument presented by that link*. I prefer brevity to being pointlessly politically correct any day.

I'm willing to bet that we agree quite a bit about home schooling, that you have chosen to immediately use ad hominem (and irrelevant) attacks on me is very disappointing. You should be ashamed of yourself.

* - if Seeker is reading this, I do not agree with the amount of flack he's been receiving lately. I think many of his arguments are valid, just not that particular one.

pastahead,

One last thing. The reason I put intelligence in quotes is because it's a very poorly defined term and I noticed a few people trying to use it in their arguments. I was indirectly criticizing this.

You should note that I mentioned that I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were on the side of the home schooled.

I heard on the radio that some cities have a 50% dropout rate. I live in a small town and can testify that its not just the major ones.
I attend a private school and the education is much better, and so is the homeschooling. Here, it's taboo to be a pregnant teen. At Rabun County Public, there are kids younger than me working on their second set of twins. Even if we could agree that public school is better than the alternatives, how would anyone fix it? I think that it's a lost cause, and that we're going to have to accept it sooner or later.

It takes a hell of a lot of effort to homeschool. If you can handle it, it will work for your kids. FlyingWeasel gives us a good working example. For those few who can do it, you'll produce successful students.

However, most of us couldn't. In today's HotPocket world, it's hard enough to get a 30-minute home-cooked meal on the table every night. You expect everyone to be able prepare six or so hours of educational content every day???

If any of you are teachers, you'd know how hard it is just get your students' parents just to spend 15 minutes reading with their kids every day. I'd like to see those performance stats if suddenly 90% of the student population were homeschooled.

Augustine,

Even if we could agree that public school is better than the alternatives, how would anyone fix it? I think that it's a lost cause, and that we're going to have to accept it sooner or later.

In other words, you can't think of an answer so we should scrap the whole thing.

Can you disprove my idea that the kids are a bigger factor than the schools at present? If not, then the above argument is a jump to conclusions since we haven't yet determined that the schools are at fault.

Show me strong evidence that moving to an all-private or home schooled system will improve things and then we can start talking about dismantling the public school system.

You sillies! Of course God is in the Constitution! You just aren't looking properly.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

See the bold letters? Right there, we've got Wodin, Ra, Isis, Allah, and Thor, and that's just the Preamble! ;-)

OOPS. I italicized the "in" in Wodin, instead of making it bold, and apparently italicicized the rest of the Preamble too, by mistake. Sorry.

Alatham

Show me strong evidence that moving to an all-private or home schooled system will improve things and then we can start talking about dismantling the public school system.

Exacalactally! The evidence that does exist suggests there is little difference at all between math and reading abilities of private vs public schools.

The whole evidence thing seems to throw some folks.

THE most important factor in a childs success at school is a stable and nurturing home life. Public vs private is just noise in the system.

Good one, Karen!

Karen,

Until you find the FSM in there, complete with pasta and a-side of a-spicy meatballs, I'm not buying it.

is these any research on age relation.is it best to homeschool early then switch to schoolhouse or the reverse.
would sex segregated schools provide the desired result of a safe quality education that parents seek for their children.
you should have to pass a test in order to have children.we should have standards to be a parent right now the public schools are dumping grounds for offspring of human cattle who think their duty ends when sperm meets egg.you have to have a permit to drive but don't to make a human whats wrong with that picture folks.

What,

The evidence that does exist suggests there is little difference at all between math and reading abilities of private vs public schools.

I don't know that this is actually true. But I do agree with your conclusion.

So far, I see no reason to believe that the problems with public schools will disappear if public schools disappear. And we won't be able to know if that is the case until we know what the root cause of the problem is. My guess is that it's the students fault, ultimately. But I don't know how to prove that at the moment.

err....

So far, I see no reason to believe that the problems with public schools will disappear if public schools disappear.

This should read:
So far, I see no reason to believe that the problems with education will disappear if public schools disappear.

I have an impulse to support homeschooling for the Northeast and the West Coast, and deny it in most of the rest of the country. It's just a temptation.

Seriously, I have been active in the past in blocking legislation in CT that would have imposed certification on home school parents. This is not an easy area: in most respects parents should be free to make decisions for their children, as long as their security and health are not endangered. But when is, for example, their mental health endangered? And if it is, is "society" obligated or even entitled to attempt to prevent that?

At some point, society would be obligated to prevent parents from dragging their children to church. The HS issue is part of a much broader picture, and the lines are not sharp as far as I can see.

Since everyone is such a Constitutional expert on the board...

Where and why does the Constitution allow the president to take Sunday off?

Rusty:
Good point.

I wasn't aware of any passage in the constitution allowing for sundays off for the president, and a quick look didn't turn up anything. however, this may be relevant:

http://tinyurl.com/2bputu

anyhow, phreedy. the fact that the constitution has an obscure passage allowing for the religious predilictions of its (human and fallible) writers does not mean that it isn't a secular document. I should think that the whole FREEDOM OF RELIGION thing would more or less wreck the argument that our founders meant us to be a theocracy.

furthermore phreedy, we have ample historical evidence in the form of letters and correspondance which indicates (at least on the part of more famous framers of the constitution) that our founders intended the state to be neutral on the matter of religion.

I'll dig up some links because I know you won't do it...

here's a good start for you at least. the views of Thomas Jefferson on separation of church and state.

http://tinyurl.com/ynuyua

Of interest

WASHINGTON, July 14, 2006 NYTimes — The Education Department reported on Friday that children in public schools generally performed as well or better in reading and mathematics than comparable children in private schools. The exception was in eighth-grade reading, where the private school counterparts fared better.

The report, which compared fourth- and eighth-grade reading and math scores in 2003 from nearly 7,000 public schools and more than 530 private schools, found that fourth graders attending public school did significantly better in math than comparable fourth graders in private schools. Additionally, it found that students in conservative Christian schools lagged significantly behind their counterparts in public schools on eighth-grade math.

The study, carrying the imprimatur of the National Center for Education Statistics, part of the Education Department, was contracted to the Educational Testing Service and delivered to the department last year.

It went through a lengthy peer review and includes an extended section of caveats about its limitations and calling such a comparison of public and private schools “of modest utility.”

Two studies that came out in the past year showed that public-school students often tested the same or better than private-school students, after accounting for certain socio-economic variables and background characteristics. One, from the National Center for Education Statistics, compared fourth- and eighth-grade reading and math scores in 2003 from nearly 7,000 public schools and more than 530 private schools. The results: Public-school fourth-graders did as well in reading as the kids in private school and somewhat better in math. In eighth grade, public-school children did the same in math but somewhat worse in reading. A study from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign that looked at the same data found similar results in the math scores. "It's quite eye-opening for a lot of people," says Christopher Lubienski, a professor of education who co-authored the report.

Still, the studies are contentious: Harvard University researchers came to the opposite conclusion after evaluating the data with different methodology.

www.online.wsj.com

Report cites low graduation rates in many city districts

http://www.boston.com

The Department of Education says nearly 11,500 students, or 3.8 percent of those in grades nine through 12, dropped out before graduating. Nearly 2,000 were seniors who already had passed the MCAS exam.

http://www.boston.com

The report, which was scheduled to be released Jan. 28 by SchoolChoice Wisconsin, a group that supports the voucher program, concludes that an estimated 57 percent of the freshmen enrolled in private high schools in the choice program in 2002-03 had completed high school four years later, compared with an estimated 43 percent of those in the same 2006 graduating class in regular Milwaukee public high schools.

http://www.schoolchoiceinfo.org/news/index.cfm?action=detail&news_id=825

Most parents who claim their public schools are superior to private schools have never compared scores. Never compared graduation rates. (Especially among boys). And have never attended a single school board meeting.

With the recent news of how poorly inner city kids are doing, again I want to ask Dave and AA...

What is more important- A child's education or you pushing your agenda on the public...?

I do not believe I mistook your 'tone' in a 'sea of text'. I see what I see.

This is what I see and it boils my blood:
You:

"I never even came close to arguing against home schooling, per se. I have no problem with it. But it does bother me that some home schoolers will purposefully shelter their children from the real world. I used the word "necessarily" because children in public schools cannot be sheltered as completely as those in home school."
Me:
I could say the very same thing, only substituting 'home schoolers' for public school children. (and this really bothers me)

And 'public school' is the 'real world'? You're so funny

Thanks for taking the time to point out my 'mistakes'. It seems you took a lot of time researching on that. good job. Nope, I am never ashamed of myself. The word 'Grammatics' is not a word, yet, but it seemed so '...fitting'...I have a great list of these 'fitting' words. Bullshit is one of them.

Have a nice day!

Alatham,

One thing I have to ask. Were you a 'bully' in school? Seems you would have picked on those that were not the same "walks of life " as you. You learned a lot in your 'realistic' ,social atmosphere.

The "Sundays excepted" clause... an argument so weak only the most feeble-minded of theocrats dare advance it...

And one that nobody takes seriously...

4-F pfreedy strikes out again...

Shackled...

The "Sundays excepted" clause... an argument so weak only the most feeble-minded of theocrats dare advance it...

And one that nobody takes seriously...

4-F pfreedy strikes out again...

How do you know? No one has found the clause...

I guess it's part of the atheist tradition to make claims without being able to back them up...

Did you learn that from Dave and Peter...?

"I guess it's part of the atheist tradition to make claims without being able to back them up..."

Phree

Kinda like claiming there is a creator and he is of course the Christian verison of a creator ??? I love when you put your foot in your mouth !!!!

alatham,

Ok, one more thing.
You:

"One last thing. The reason I put intelligence in quotes is because it's a very poorly defined term and I noticed a few people trying to use it in their arguments. I was indirectly criticizing this."

I never questioned this. No need to justify. I gotchya. I asked what 'bothers' you.

"What is more important- A child's education or you pushing your agenda on the public...?"

Phree

Again the christians are the ones who want everyone in public schools to pray or prey to their particular god of worship ? so who is the one who is pushing their agenda's ????

Phreeliar,

Actually it's Article 1, Section 7...

If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.

And by the way, I've now read through my entire copy of the U.S. Constitution (currently sitting here on my desk) and as I suspected, you again prove yourself a liar. There is no mention of the words 'God', 'Gods', or 'Creator' ANYWHERE in it.

As a good Christian, I bet you'll continue to perpetuate this lie.