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Well, perhaps by Stephen Hawking's impossible standards nobody on Earth is intelligent and that would mean there is no intelligence at all in the universe, yet, except for Hawking himself.

"Primitive life is very common and intelligent life is fairly rare," he said, then quickly added: "Some would say it has yet to occur on Earth."

Hmmm. Did Hawking just meet Edward right before he made that statement?

How long has Hawking been in that chair? Maybe Pike was modeled after him?

Not as cool as the Spock's Brain episode. "Brain and brain! What is brain!"

Remember my Jupiter-Brain post? Its a little amusing to consider that we're always wondering if there are 'intelligent' extraterrestrial life forms out there when we may not even rate the description by other life-forms.

What would Jupiter think about? I haven't a clue.

OK So seriously. Life on other planets? Yes. Extraterrestrial life here? No. Why? We are too far from everything. Your thoughts?

It is very simplistic to think that just because we can't travel quickly through interstellar space that some other intelligence hasn't figured it out. Any sufficently advanced technology might appear as magic to us but that doesn't make it impossible. Trust me, there is intelligent life in the universe other than us.

OK So seriously. Life on other planets? Yes. Extraterrestrial life here? No.

Life on other planets? Maybe, it would be nice to know for sure.

Extraterrestrial life here? Maybe, how could we ever know for sure? Exogenesists would say we're all extraterrestrials.

I don't think we can say that there is life on other planets until we have evidence of it. If we start saying there is life on other planets without evidence to support it, we may have to accept the existence of other things that we have no evidence for.

Personally I think that life on other planets is possible, but we will never know. they are so far away on planets as tiny as ours that finding them would make the needle in a haystack metaphor seem relatively simple. For them to find us or us to find them would take a level of technology that Sci-Fi writers haven't thought of yet.

I like what the late Carl Sagan said on the subject. When asked if he thought there was intelligent life on other planets in the galaxy, he said, "I don't know." The reporter then asked him what he thought in his gut. He said, "I don't think with my gut."

alex

Trust me, there is intelligent life in the universe other than us.

How do you know?


illnoise

Triple post! Wow. ;-)

He's had a personal experience, if I remember correctly.

He's had a personal experience, if I remember correctly.

Yep, me, my mum, and my brother along with several other people had a very upclose encounter with something back when I was seventeen. It was NOT of this world I assure you and I really don't like to elaborate on it becasue it is so very disturbing (no I'm not crazy nor am I lying). Believe me when I tell you that they are here.

Considering that there are an estimated 60 billion galaxies in the universe and an estimated 10 thousand billion billion (i.e., 10 to the 22nd power) star systems in each galaxy (according to Chris Impey's book "The Living Cosmos"), the odds of there being life elsewhere in the universe is a statistical no-brainer.

Whether or not life has evolved on other worlds to an advanced state commensurate with, or far beyond, that of earth humans is another question. And whether or not an advanced civilization elsewhere in the universe has the technological capability to travel to our planet is yet another question.

However, I think we need to open our minds to the possibility that a civilization hundreds or thousands of years more advanced than our own may have developed the technology necessary to manipulate time, space and alternative dimensions of reality in order to take "short cuts" from one distant part of the universe to another. Simply because we cannot conceive of such technology with our extremely primitive understanding of the mysteries of the universe does not mean that it is impossible for such technology to exist or for a civilization far superior in intelligence to our own to have unlocked the key to such technology.

alexatheist:

Trust me, there is intelligent life in the universe other than us.

Trust you? You mean as in, let you do my thinking for me? You are talking like a fundamentalist.

THX,
I'm not trying to make you believe or not believe, I'm just telling you what I know.

Rob91316,

Considering that there are an estimated 60 billion galaxies in the universe and an estimated 10 thousand billion billion (i.e., 10 to the 22nd power) star systems in each galaxy (according to Chris Impey's book "The Living Cosmos"), the odds of there being life elsewhere in the universe is a statistical no-brainer.

Considering that those are estimates, the word "statistics" does not apply.

I agree with everything else you said, but the Drake Equation (and all the various updates of it) is not science, it is just a guess, it tells us nothing useful.

Given that planetary systems around stars seem to be common, and given that the elements life as we know it is made from, hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen are also among the most cosmically abundant, it would be surprising if life hasn't evolved elsewhere. Given the size of the universe, it is not at all surprising that we have not been contacted by aliens. There is no reason to expect that even an intelligent species would necessarily share our proclivity for developing technology, and our curiosity. If such a race did exist, but was millions of light years away, contact would likely be impossible.

"One option is that there likely isn't life elsewhere.

"Or maybe there is intelligent life elsewhere, but when it gets smart enough to send signals into space, it also is smart enough to make destructive nuclear weapons.

"Primitive life is very common and intelligent life is fairly rare,"

These choices are not exhaustive.
4. Maybe intelligent life exists and is not yet aware of us.
5. Maybe intelligent life exists and is not looking for other life. It either hasn't thought about it or it doesn't care.
6. Maybe intelligent life exists in a form that communicates so differently from us that neither of us is likely to become aware of the other.
And so on.
Given the life span of the universe, how likely is it that another form of intelligent life will exist at the same relatively tiny span that we exist?

"Watch out if you would meet an alien. You could be infected with a disease with which you have no resistance."

Isn't it just as likely that an alien disease would have no effect on humans because of differing biology?

an estimated 10 thousand billion billion (i.e., 10 to the 22nd power) star systems in each galaxy

I think that number is vastly overstated. There might be that many star systems in the universe but certainly not in our galaxy alone.

Them abductees are always probed.

I notice that life (single celled reproducers) showed up rather soon after the earth was formed. It only took about 1 billion years. But it took close to 3.5 billion more years for the ooze to evolve into relatively complex animals. Taking the ratio of the formation times in our sample set of 1 makes a weak indication that life should be much more common than intelligent life.

There are still about 7 billion (?) years before our sun will swallow our earth (and there are other end game scenarios), but larger suns expend their fuel quicker so leave less time for the complexity to build up.

My opinion is based on far too little data: Probably

I go with the "intelligent life is probable, but rare". If we take radio broadcasts to be a signal of intelligence, and SETI has yet to find anything despite all the years I ran their screen saver, then it at least is not common.

It can be rare not only in space but in time. If intelligent beings are "out there", now, it could be a billion years before we pick up the signal. If they were there a billion years ago, we may have missed them. We've only been listening for a few decades, after all.

I hope I am wrong about all this and it does turn out to be a Star Trek universe after all, but I don't think the evidence supports it (yet).

I continue my previous post to better describe my opinion. Probably there is intelligent life on other planets right now.

I don't think there is any intelligent life originating from other planets on our earth right now.

If we did discover even simple life somewhere; considering human behavior thus far, almost certainly, we would see the developement of kooky religions as a rusult.

I have asked something like the following question when this life-on-other-planets question came up before.

Let's say we have a single upside down red cup placed on a table. I then lift the cup to show you that a ball exists under the cup. I then ask you to close your eyes while I place one hundred white cups on the table after which I ask you if there is a ball under one the white 100 cups. What would your answer be? Would your answer change if there were a thousand white cups?

Comment from: alexatheist

Trust me, there is intelligent life in the universe other than us.

Based on what...?

Sorry Alex...didn't see you've already answer my question...

So...

I'm not trying to make you believe or not believe, I'm just telling you what I know

Why is your argument any different then mine?

interesting discussion and points made. i have to go with probability of occurrence. if we accept that the universe is "infinite" and that we evolved from primitive beginnings on this planet, then the probability of other life evolving either similarly or somewhat similarly, is high enough to be possible.

also, given the age of the universe and the time required for our evolution, it is equally probable that, the other life exists at a stages that vary from ours, some more primitive and some more advanced.

so i am in the YES camp on this one. and no you xtian trolls, this doesn't conflict with my disbelief in a god. since there is no evidence of a god there is no way to evaluate a probability of a god, so to me that means probability equal ZERO.

This would be a great topic to discuss if we possessed academic freedom in America...

Unfortunately atheists have a closed mind to anyone who doesn't believe as they do...

Take the comments from Alex...

He could just as easily been a Christian making such a claim...

I kind of like the answer the one atheist prophet gave in "Expelled"...

Life begins on the back of crystals...

So as long as a planet has crystals...life is possible...

Comment from: sayonara

this doesn't conflict with my disbelief in a god.

Of course it does...otherwise you wouldn't of added a disclaimer...

since there is no evidence of a god there is no way to evaluate a probability of a god, so to me that means probability equal ZERO

No evidence? Ok, for discussion...

How would one discover evidence when there's a Stalinist approach to free thought in science?

And since we're discussing space and exploration. Something to think about if Obama becomes president...

"Barack Obama's early education and K-12 plan package costs about $18 billion per year. He will maintain fiscal responsibility and prevent an increase in the deficit by offsetting cuts and revenue sources in other parts of the government. The early education plan will be paid for by delaying the NASA Constellation Program for five years, using purchase cards and negotiating power of the government to reduce costs of standardized procurement, auctioning surplus federal property, and reducing the erroneous payments identified by the Government Accountability Office, and closing the CEO pay deductibility loophole. The rest of the plan will be funded using a small portion of the savings associated with fighting the war in Iraq."

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/04/obamas_plan_for_nasa.html

phred, and that reaffirms my decision to why I did not vote for Uncle Osama in today's primary.

since there is no evidence of a god there is no way to evaluate a probability of a god, so to me that means probability equal ZERO.

Logically, this this is a maddeningly contradictory statement. You say that there is no way to evaluate the probability of a god, so you evaluate the probability in your own mind. You ASSUME a number.

What does our mental and scientific ability have to do with the actual probability of something (not just the presence of God)?

OK phreedm, i'm going to respond to you one more time because i am a nice guy and want to display to you that i have "xtian-like" values.

i have come to the realization that you ( and others like you) are not capable of the same level of rational thought that i am. this is not a cut on you it's just reality. because you do not have the same reasoning ability as me, you cannot always understand/comprehend something explained rationally. and you are not even capable of realizing that you are lacking in this way.

so i'm not going to address your queries directly because it's a waste of both our time. much like trying to explain algebra to one of my daughters and she just didn't get it no matter what while my other three kids picked it up with little help from me. you are like that algebra-learning-deficient daughter to me and i've accepted that now.

don't take it personally. you likely have some qualities that are superior to mine. rational thought just isn't one of them.

i hope that clarifies how i view you now and will deal with you on this blog henceforth. if i think that i can respond to you without it requiring rational thought on your part then i may still do so.

uoflcard asked:
"What does our mental and scientific ability have to do with the actual probability of something (not just the presence of God)?"

i am a scientist and an engineer. i have to make decisions on behalf of clients everyday based on limited data, history, what i can "see" with my own eyes, and the "probability" of something happening. i have been doing this for over 30 years and if i do say so myself, i'm pretty damn good at it.

so when it comes to a god for whose existence there is no data or evidence, who if exists as always existed or was formed from nothing to be the most powerful force in the universe, whose existence has no documentable observation by man, who has no history (i don't count the bible as a factually reliable history source), etc, etc. i can only place a probability on such a being at zero. there is nothing there to start with.

in the case of man, we exist and can see each other and can study ourselves and our history. then we can use this data to analyze our existence. non of this is possible with your god or anybody else's god.

i hope that explains it the best i can. please read my response to phreedm above regarding the variation in people's ability to grasp rational thought concepts.

I consider it an irrefutable fact that there is life on other planets, but as to whether it is intelligent life remains to be debated. Life is the necessary equalizer of semi-stable molecules, a purpose for existance if you must.

I consider it an irrefutable fact that there is life on other planets, but as to whether it is intelligent life remains to be debated. Life is the necessary equalizer of semi-stable molecules, a purpose for existance if you must.

.... oh, I forgot to say the possibility where intelligent life exists but they haven't quite discover radio waves yet, or where they've discovered it and the radio waves get attenuated by space debris around a planet. Gee, I'm better at this than Hawking is, it's because I have a better imagination :)

Anyone read this? It illustrates an interesting possibility... and is one of my favorite short stories.

http://baetzler.de/humor/meat_beings.html

OK folks random processes are not known to exist. Some processes appear to "look" random because of the level of ignorance of the observer of the process. This is true for classical and quantum physics. So the number of planets out there is irrelevant. There is either life on some of them our there is not and until we have evidence that there is life you simply can not say that there is. Just because somebody comes up with some probability p (0

OK folks random processes are not known to exist. Some processes appear to "look" random because of the level of ignorance of the observer of the process. This is true for classical and quantum physics. So the number of planets out there is irrelevant. There is either life on some of them our there is not and until we have evidence that there is life you simply can not say that there is. Just because somebody comes up with some probability p that life exists on another planet based on a certain model and ignorance level concerning its variables does not mean that a fraction p of the planets will have life on it. Such probabilities only have validity if the model is valid.

Jie

I liked the meat story.

There is just way too much misunderstanding of what probability means on this thread.

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=5801410974377137535&postID=3781620590034664685

http://irrationaltheorist.blogspot.com/

How did life originate?

I don't know.

Therefore God did it.

UFOcard

What does our mental and scientific ability have to do with the actual probability of something (not just the presence of God)?

What the hell is an "actual probability"? You are seriously confused.

Seeker

When you first started posting here I gave you a lot of flack for what I perceived as a feigning of atheism. I guess I just didn't appreciate your particular nuance. Anyhow please accept my belated apology.

Rob91316,

I agree with you. Unfortunately, some here have closed eyes. (yep gonna catch flack on that) Some here say something does not exist only because they are closed minded. It is a "I have not seen it, therefor it don't exist, period" mentality.

It is as illogical to say there is NO life off our planet as to say the god of abraham does exist.

What,

Your belated apology is accepted.

My world view embraces a libertarianism (ala Ayn Rand). That will always be a bone of contention with those (atheists and theists alike) who embrace a big-government agenda.

Actually, I started posting here two or three years ago when I was trying to find my way out of the religious illusion (hence the nick, "Seeker"), quizzing and challenging atheists on why they believed what they believed. Spanders was particularly helpful as was (surprise) Phreedm.

A quick search of old posts came up with this.

http://www.atheists.org/nogodblog/index.php/2006/07/26/coach_wins_school_prayer_issue#c47923

Two major UFO sightings from this week with multiple witnesses and video. The Phoenix video looks very similar to what I saw except it is much further away. We were no more than maybe 100 ft from a hovering UFO for several minutes. I'm telling you, they are here:

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-14011

http://www.local6.com/news/15953691/detail.html

I believe you alex, by the way, 4/20 is over. :)

Deepdiver,

Some here say something does not exist only because they are closed minded. It is a "I have not seen it, therefor it don't exist, period" mentality.

Who's saying that? I haven't found any posts that agree with that statement.

alatham,

This was directed at privious posts. I brought up reincarnation and was shot down with nukes. (a bit of an exagerations.)

Comment from: thx1138 [Member]
alexatheist:


Trust me, there is intelligent life in the universe other than us.


Trust you? You mean as in, let you do my thinking for me? You are talking like a fundamentalist.

I don't disblieve or believe we have/are being visited. Could be. But many sightings are proven to be from natural causes or our aircraft.

Alex, if you see these, I am not questioning you. Especially since their are pictures. But I am not yet convinced these are aliens.

Deepdiver,

Ahh, ok. I don't remember that thread.

alex... bad news dude....

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepagetopstory/stories/Phoenix_local_news_042108_new-lights-sightings.895be60f.html

sorry

Seeker

My world view embraces a libertarianism (ala Ayn Rand).

Oh don't get me started on Rand. Maybe on another more appropriate thread?

Comment from: DeepDiver [Member]
alatham,

This was directed at privious posts. I brought up reincarnation and was shot down with nukes. (a bit of an exagerations.)


Comment from: thx1138 [Member]
alexatheist:


Trust me, there is intelligent life in the universe other than us.


Trust you? You mean as in, let you do my thinking for me? You are talking like a fundamentalist.

It took me a while to piece together your breathtakingly specious logic. You conclude that because I refuse to take a stand on the existence of life on other planets I must believe there is none. That's "you're either for me or agin' me" reasoning. My point, the one that sailed over your head like a low flying biplane, was that I join the great Carl Sagan in having no opinion at all. I was merely saying I don't want *your* opinion ramrodded down my throat. I choose to have no position until more facts are in. The non-existence of life on other planets (for reasons that aren't altogether clear to me) is part of the agenda of the religious. The existence of life on other planets (see above) for atheists is that there is. I have no agenda.

You aren't diving very deeply, DeepDiver.

thx1138:
Forgive me. Your post to Alex appeared like you had no tolerance to someone believing in the possibility of extraterrestrial life and comparing that belief to gods. I do not see him ramrodding anything down your throat, anyone else. A fundamentalist does not look at evidence and Alex does. There for the comparison is nowhere close.

Trust you? You mean as in, let you do my thinking for me? You are talking like a fundamentalist.

Sorry, multitasking there. But you get my drift.

If a pilot claims to see a Unidentified Flying Object (UFO) that pilot will be FAA revoked due to psychosis. The funny thing is that the very FAA will never revoke a license to someone kneeling and praying before a flight at the very ramp in an airport. Even airports have churches for who ever feels to get in touch with their gods for a safe journey. That's crazy.

Kosher

What if you reporting seeing images of jeebus in the contrails?

What

*laugh* it has happened before, believe it or not! After seen something like that the whole vision falls into the 'miracle' category; it can be accepted as a "religious matters" for the FAA.
Have you ever heard or read the book "God is my Co-pilot" a 1945 book by Gen. Robert Lee Scott Jr., USAF (ret)? In aviation we get confused and call it 'Dog is my Co-pilot'
It is a very psychotic book nevertheless.

I'd like to respond to What's analogy. We know that certain conditions on earth have produced amino acids (Miller and Uray). Therefore the white cup produced its own red ball, making it possible that other white cups could produce a red ball. So, it is acceptable to say that there is increased probability with larger numbers that the white cups may have red balls under them under the same conditions.

Augustine

Therefore the white cup produced its own red ball

Deterministically. So chance and large numbers do not come into play. Probability is a measure of ignorance. It does not cause.

Kosher

I have seen the bumper stickers of god and dog variety. I did not know about the book. Thanks.

Augustine

I should have said thanks for the response. Thanks!