NoGodBlog.com

It's all about personal liberty, something the republicans despise when it's anti-baby jesus, and something the democrats despise when it's anti PC.

You can go ahead and lump in the failure of the War on Drugs in there too.

I've been saying for years that there is absolutely no justification for making prostitution illegal other than a religious or moral objection just like the objections to gay marriage. If I meet some guy on the street and we have sex this is legal but if I pay for the sex somehow it magically becomes a criminal act. Stupid, stupid, stupid and none of the government's goddamned business.

Alex

It is stupid but then this is America - Land of the free (don't ever pay for it) and home of the brave (STD? Who me?).

alex, I agree, and I am straight:)

What you do with a willing partner, in just about every case, is your own business.

Laws against prostitution is a religious law. Sodomy laws are religious laws also. Boy, have I broken some laws?

Talk about religion getting into personal lives. What second grader would watch Howard Stern.

http://liz727.blogspot.com/2008/05/teacher-loses-job-for-bikini-image.html

Comment from: alexatheist

I've been saying for years that there is absolutely no justification for making prostitution illegal other than a religious or moral objection

Rather a short sighted view of things...

Try reading up on "retired" prostitutes and tell remind me of how happy and well adjusted their lives become...

Just like the gay community, prostitutes have a much shorter life expectancy then the rest of society.

You can disagree with that statement all you want, but facts are facts.

Following the other thread, I would imagine Dave would only report on republicans visiting a brothel...

Dems can do whatever they want...after all, if the republicans are considered the party of morality, then the Dems MUST be the party of immorality...

I do believe that the anti-prostitution laws are religiously driven. I also do not believe in the idea of a victimless crime -- no victim, no crime. As long as both parties are consenting adults, I don't see the problem.

As far as prostitutes being unhappy and not living as long as the general population, I think that it is more than simply that they are prostitutes. Little girls don't dream of growing up and being prostitutes, they end up being prostitutes because there is nowhere else to go. The kind of person who would typically end up being a prostitute is going to be unhappy anyway because of a long series of bad decisions in their life.

"Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy."
H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

I absolutely agree that prostitution is only a crime because of prudish, nosy religious idiots prying into other people's lives. And that it should be considered a seperation of chruch and state issue.

It has always struck me as being amazingly hypocrtitcal that, if you buy somebody dinner and a movie, and then have sex with them, it's not considered prostitution. But if you just hand them the cash, then it is. Unbelievable double standard - but that churchy sanction makes everything okey dokey. Just another example of the complete lack of morals that religion instills in its' follwers.

It also seems to me that marrying somebody for teh secks (or whatever else you want from the relationship) is merely hiring a copnsiderably more expensive prostitute long term. Prostitution is just an up-front agreement about the financial end of things. If you marry them, and pay for their care, it's not prostitution. But if you don't marry them, and still pay for their care, now you're engaging in an illegal act.

I also see that the phreakish religiously insane moral scold who tosses out non-facts into the discussion has weighed in. Without backing up his superstitious nonsense about life expectancies with, you know, facts and stuff. Par for the course. Watch him ignore this comment (like he has ignored pretty much everything every time he is challenged on his occult fairy tales) once again. And did he just say that Dems must be the party of immorality, without any basis in reality upon which to make that statement? After Diaper David Vitter and the rest of the Republican't corruption crew that has set new records for illegal and immoral behavior for the last seven years? Nice set of blinders you gots there...

DD
Sodomy laws are religious laws also.

Thankfully, all remaining sodomy laws were struck down by the Supreme Court a few years ago so gays and straights both are now free to engage in consensual oral and anal sex without fear of commiting a crime (yes sodomy laws covered straight people too). Now if they would just do the same with laws against prostitution.

phreedum

Try reading up on "retired" prostitutes and tell remind me of how happy and well adjusted their lives become...

Since when is protecting a person's perceived level of happiness a justification for infringing on their personal liberty? the most miserable twat that I know of is a friend's mother who is a bat shit crazy fundamentalist xian and is in a constant state of severe depression because she thinks that everyone she knows and cares about is hell bound so she spends her days wringing her hands and sighing and is a psychological mess. Five minutes spent around this woman drains all the life out of a person and she looks to be about 90 years old when in fact she is 60. Should we ban her right to be stupid and believe what she does? it certainly has destroyed her happiness.
Phreedum you just don't grasp the concept of perrsonal freedom and not sticking your nose in other peoples business. I have never used the services of a prostitute, I don't need too, but I don't want the US government getting involved in regulating consensual sexual acts between adults. There is no secular justification for the prohibition of prostitution. None.

Just like the gay community, prostitutes have a much shorter life expectancy then the rest of society.

The statistics that you are quoting were provided by professional homophobe Paul Cameron (father of xian idiot Kirk Cameron) of the right wing Family Research Council ("Gays should be exterminated" and "Gays should be forced to wear warning labels") who based his "fact" on obituaries in a gay newspaper during the worst years of the AIDS epidemic and have been totally debunked as bad science by the CDC among other organisations. This "fact" that gay men die on average in their early 40s is reguritated over and over again by xians who, not surprisingly, never actually bother to check the facts so I have provided them here for you:

http://www.washblade.com/2005/6-17/view/actionalert/weird.cfm

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_cameron_obit.html

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,018.htm

Phreedum, please explain to all of us here how much time you save by not actually doing any thinking for yourself and relying on others to do it for you.

Wyy are my blockquotes above all wonky? I did them the right way.
Argh!

(:tom:),

I rarely comment on this site but read it often, if for no other reason than for the laughs I get when you dress down "the moral scold".

Did she really suicide? I read somewhere that she was the Veep's call girl, and he had her killed to keep her from exposing his "contributions".

OOH. gossip!

Prostitution is legal in Nevada, and I'll wager that the legal prostitutes there do not have shorter-than normal lives. Criminalizing activities like prostitution and drug use drives them underground where they are uncontrolled and unprotected.

Quoting from GT5463a but, the question is open to all:

As far as prostitutes being unhappy and not living as long as the general population, I think that it is more than simply that they are prostitutes. Little girls don't dream of growing up and being prostitutes, they end up being prostitutes because there is nowhere else to go. The kind of person who would typically end up being a prostitute is going to be unhappy anyway because of a long series of bad decisions in their life.

How much of the unhappiness and problems are caused by the way they are treated by society?

Although there are gender differences, I think a substantial amount of perceived differences are a product of society, that is, learned differences not hardwired differences. I would like to turn the table a bit and narrow the scope for illustration.

Suppose the scope of prostitution was limited to two women and one man. Each of the women want to have sex from time to time but, prefer not to complicate their lives with relationship issues and they don't like the issues involved in the socially acceptable one night stand approach. The man doesn't like the one night stand approach basically for the same reasons that the two women don't, however, the man likes to pamper women but doesn't find a day to day monogamous relationship to be fulfilling. The man offers to pamper the women but wants to be compensated for time and expenses.

Now, the christians will object, saying that their god-idea finds such activity "sinful" but, aside from that fairytale issue is the activity itself harmful? Or is the problem a misguided social norm, put in place to solve some seemingly or actual related issues?

Our society says sex is for all intents and purposes mandatory if married but, should be unacceptable otherwise. However, the sex act is unchanged, the change is in various other factors. If there is a problem that needs to be addressed it lies in the other factors not the sex. The law needs to be directed at the actual problem not at a convenient scapegoat.

Anyone who is interested in the absurdity of consensual victimless "crimes" should read this book. I bought it back in 1996 when it was first published.

http://www.amazon.com/Aint-Nobodys-Business-You-Consensual/dp/0931580587

Is there really a such thing as "victimless prostitution" though, Dave? And, if so, how do we make sure that there are no victims?

QF's blog: http://irrationaltheorist.blogspot.com/

Is there really a such thing as "victimless prostitution" though, Dave? And, if so, how do we make sure that there are no victims?

By that, I mean to say that it isn't always consentual if there is a pimp involved. I've heard that the pimps hire somebody to kidnap/smuggle the girls into our country, then the pimps slap the girls around, drug them, and force them into prostitution. If that is the case, then I can't quite say it is "consentual" but forced.

However, I suppose there are some prostitutes that are independent of the pimps that run them?

So answer me this:

For those of you who state that prostitution is a victimless crime, what about the sexual exploitation of half our society that squats to pee by the other half that pees standing up?

Christianity says women are chattel to be used for propagation purposes and exploits them. Women should never have been given the vote,
they exist solely to satisfy their husbands needs and must obey them unquestionably,
can not be priests,
can not own property,
can be beaten and killed with impunity,
they are less than humans.

I thought that as Atheists, we were above the sentiments of Christians as spouted above. Doesn't anyone respect women?

I thought that as Atheists, we were above the sentiments of Christians as spouted above. Doesn't anyone respect women?

So you'd rather a woman be forced to sell her body on the streets rather than in a well regulated brothel? People will always pay for sex. Making the practice illicit merely creates a black-market.

KnowledgeIsPower: So you'd rather a woman be forced to sell her body on the streets rather than in a well regulated brothel? People will always pay for sex. Making the practice illicit merely creates a black-market.

Okay, you've convinced me. Prostitution should be legal then.

There will always be people who want to pay for sex and there will always be people who want to be paid for sex. What does making it legal or not legal have to do with respecting women?

I like Thomas Jefferson's criterion for illegality. Something should not be illegal if it 'neither breaks my bones nor picks my pocket.'

Somewhere in Europe, I think it's in Germany, they deal with the issue by making it illegal to be a john, but not to be a prostitute.

Consenting adults should be free to do what they want. Period.

Circumstances such as sex slavery, child racketeering, pimped drugs addicts etc are not consenting adults. They are under age and under duress. Limits could be circumscribed around it like any other industry.

And hey, Jebus best buddy was a hooker,

For those of you who state that prostitution is a victimless crime, what about the sexual exploitation of half our society that squats to pee by the other half that pees standing up?

Kidnapping, sexual abuse, and slavery are all crimes as well they should be and no one here is arguing for that. Consensual sex between adults in exchange for money is the issue at hand and for which there is no secular argument against the practice.

What's wrong with my blockquotes today? I have triple checked them before sending my comments but they still are screwed up.

GT and Alex,

Your responses to Peter are spot on.

The freedom for an individual to be a sex worker has nothing to do with respect for all women. I consider the granting of that particular freedom to be far more respectful than the denying of it.

Prostitution, as long as it is a personal choice for all involved, should not be regulated except to make sure the prostitutes are free of STDs (or as free as possible) and that the customers are aware of possible risks.

Peter,

If women want to behave in a way that makes society look down upon them why is it more respectful to deny them that right than to give them that personal freedom?

I'll answer for Peter: because human liberty is much more important than societal perceptions. Full stop.

We don't deny people being $cientologists even though most people look down on it as a crazy cult because in America we recognise that personal liberty trumps societal perceptions.

alatham,

Prostitutes don't make society look down upon them.

rna2dna,

Ok, fine. "Make" was not the right word. But I'm sure willing prostitutes are fully aware of just how unloved their chosen profession is before starting it. My criticism of Peter's comment stands.

Prostitution is actually quite the rewarded business in the Bible, as in, kill the whole town but spare the prostitutes. It happened in the OT.

QF's blog: http://irrationaltheorist.blogspot.com/

alexatheist:

Wyy are my blockquotes above all wonky? I did them the right way.
Argh!

Did you remember to put the forward slash in the closing blockquote tag?
</blockquote>

Recently I watched a doc on the History channel about Prostitution during the Civil War. It mainly discussed one Union camp in Tn. The began having huge issues with STD (about 70% had one) and begun to try to stop the prostitution. They tried arresting them at one point even loaded a 1000 onto a steamboat and shipped them away. The result, 1000 new prostitutes moved in and then the 1000 that left came back resulting in double the amount of prostitutes.

Finally a radical plan was hatched.
legalize prostitution. They made ever prostitute be certified each month by a Dr. Those showing signs of STDs were admitted to a hospital for treated. This reduced the std to incredible lows.

Yup, I've been using blockquotes daily for years so I don't know whats wrong. Here goes again...

Finally a radical plan was hatched. legalize prostitution

Anyway, the Netherlands has a similar legal prostitution plan where it is regulated by the government and there are checks on health and safety of the sex workers which seems to work out just fine over there. Like anything, when you enact prohibition and attempt to drive it underground it only results in crime and chaos.

Just look at the high-ranking political figures who were among Palfrey's clients. . . Does society want to drive these men to commit suicide too?

Only some of them. It might be easier than trying to unseat them through elections.

alatham,
Peter wasn't specific enough in his comment for me to be sure what he was referring to.

Personally, I think I respect women and men about equally. Although I will admit to being attracted to women so that occasionally causes an unfair advantage for the women (I'm not proud of that unfairness).

I'm sure willing prostitutes are fully aware of just how unloved their chosen profession is before starting it. My criticism of Peter's comment stands.

Society can't be trusted to make unbiased judgments. In this case we can do a rough comparison. Christian preachers exploit people emotionally and as we have seen they also use their postion to take advantage of children and adults sexually. However, society thinks christian preachers are lovable.

I'm not intending to criticize your observation but, I do criticize society for the double standard. Even worse society gives the preacher tax exempt money for exploiting people. Not to mention overly lax reporting requirements.

Now, if the women are prostitutes unwillingly then, that is of course not acceptable.

I think we should tax it and use the taxes to pay to study STD's.

I thought this wanker was banned.

Rna2dna,

I agree.

*OT*

British Airways bans beef on flights to avoid offending hindus

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23483255-details/British+Airways+takes+beef+off+the+menu+to+avoid+offending+Hindus/article.do

Just one more reason I am thankful everyday that my family left the UK for America-religiously based political correctness is raging totally out of control over there. Can't eat beef/pork because of silly religious restrictions? then don't choose it when flying on the national airline but don't use your personal superstition to deny those who would eat beef. Mark my words, it's only a matter of time before alcohol is banned on BA to avoid causing offence to the muslims.

British common sense is now officially dead.

Religion is just BA's excuse. The skyrocketing price of beef is the real reason.

what this tells me is that America is like ripe fruit ready to be plucked.every customer in her records should be exposed and punished.i suspect most are married respected pillars of the coummunity.as for legalization what age of consent for workers,customers where do you allow it,how do you tax it sales or income tax or both.my point is that legalization may not be as simple a solution as we think.

I think prostitution in the US is a tax problem as a result of a religious one. Many states have difficulties taxing this industry because of their laws based, to some extent, in biblical ideas and myths and to conform with some religious groups. By the way, it is disturbing to see the amount of prostitution taking place in the bible itself; and it is punished horribly.

Rusty Shackleford:

Somewhere in Europe, I think it's in Germany, they deal with the issue by making it illegal to be a john, but not to be a prostitute.

Isn't it Norway, or Sweden?

Peter:

I thought that as Atheists, we were above the sentiments of Christians as spouted above. Doesn't anyone respect women?

I'm sorry, but what exactly does decriminalization/legalization of prostitution have to do with respect towards anyone? If anything, making it illegal is decreasing (real and imagined) respect towards both men and women working as prostitutes. Not only do you punish them, you also brand them as criminals, and thus label them with a social stigma.

If you mean to imply that prostitution in and of itself is disrespectful towards women, the only way out is to make sure there's no more prostitutes. And making prostitution illegal is obviously not the right way.

And until you, or anyone else, can figure out how to solve that issue completely, I'd rather be on the side that doesn't throw those men and women in prison, forces them to take drugs and commit suicide and stigmatizes them.

quantum_flux:

By that, I mean to say that it isn't always consentual if there is a pimp involved.

What is a pimp?
Someone mentioned that prostitution is legal in Nevada. Penn & Teller showed a brothel in one of their Bullshit! episodes. A brother that has prostitutes, as well as an owner. Now, would you call that brothel owner a pimp, just based on his/her position? How does that differs from any business owner or employer?

Or would you define a pimp by the way he acts (those things you described)? If so, then legal status of prostitution is irrelevant, and the problem is in that person commiting things already illegal independently of prostitution. And, come to think about it, don't you think that prostitutes would be more keen to report such a person, if they weren't threatened with a prison sentence themselves?

Karen,
Palfrey's death was the second suicide associated with the case. A woman who worked for the escort service, former University of Maryland professor Brandy Britton, killed herself in January 2007 before she was scheduled to go to trial on prostitution charges.
Makes it hard not to wonder.

All of the blog comments so far have been so women-centric as far as the prostitutes go. Gay men and women who want sex with men for pay rarely have legal options. Why no sympathy for the hustlers out there -- and their customers? If you've seen the show Pleasure for Sale, you'd see that all the women are very good at making decisions and sell themselves for lots of money. They don't get my pity. It's the ones who can't afford to leave their families to move to the ranches and have to walk the streets to make a buck that I feel pity for.

One thing not mentioned here is that not all people can find a person willing to become a spouse, even if they wanted to. Severely-disabled persons really face a challenge in that regard. Why should our laws practically ensure that severly disabled people not receive sexual pleasure and relief when they are physically able without paying the premium price caused by legal restriction / limited access? The disabled community should really rise up.

And finally, why is everyone so down on pimps? Pimps and madams, in a legal scenario, provide a valuable service by conducting the business and security end of things. Priests and pastors do the same thing for religiously-inclined folks. Here are the rules, and here is the enforcer.