NoGodBlog.com

Just say NO to organized homophobia and Jebus-based discrimination.

has this benefit been granted to an organization that promotes religion or discriminates based on religion.

They also discriminate against gays.

Support the Girl Scouts instead which have no policy of bigotry towards atheists or gays.

Good point Alex,

The Girl Scouts are TOTALLY DIFFERENT from the BSA. In fact, the local Girl Scout troop showed up at the "Atheists in Foxholes" event to hand out chocolate bars to our veterans. The Girl Scouts are ethical, and they DO NOT DISCRIMINATE.

The Girl Scouts are ethical, and they DO NOT DISCRIMINATE.

Also, delicious cookies.

Some of my best memories come from my time spent in Scouts... but I guess I was fortunate that I was in a troop in New England, and everything was very laid back and accepting, it wasn't until after I had achieved my Eagle Scout rank that I noticed much of the bigotry that is prevalent in the organization countrywide. It's sad, so many good things can come out of scouts, and it shouldn't be limited to only those that fit the "norm" of the bigots who run the organization at this time.

I too am an Eagle Scout.

Why should any parent question any man that is gay for wanting to go out in the woods alone and unsupervised with their children. Oh the shame of those parents.

I'm also a former Boy Scout. I made Star rank before I turned 18. I have mostly good memories from it, but some of the more recent things I've learned about the organization disgust me. The insistence that I went to 'church' during some of the longer camping trips always made me uncomfortable, but sleeping in a bag in northern Wisconsin was always much worse so I never thought about it much when I was still a member. I was definitely an atheist at that time, though I wouldn't have known what the word meant. It was simply 'normal' not to believe in a deity in my household, it wasn't 'atheistic.' When they spoke out against atheists (I can only recall this happening once or twice) I had no idea what they were talking about.

DeepDiver,
I normally like your posts, but your conflating gayness with pedophilia is disgusting and I'm going to have to reform my opinion of you as a result.

Are we to assume that you believe that Girl Scouts are in constant danger of being raped by Girl Scout leaders?

For what it's worth, I can't recall a single camping trip that didn't involve multiple adult supervisors. Even the one-off single weekend trips. There were always at least two leaders and the scouts were always encouraged to stay in groups no smaller than two people as well.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if more scouts have died as a result of driving to and from meetings than have been raped by a scout leader.

I can't believe I'm actually defending the BSA.

If a troop is willing to send out a group of their scouts on a trip with only one adult, then something is wrong with the decision making process in that troop and with the parents.

Furthermore:
The assumption that just because someone is gay that they will abuse children absurd...
Do you automatically assume any straight person will automatically want to get an under aged girl?

In Boy Scouts they maintain a 2-1 ratio, where there must be at least 2 scouts to 1 adult. No adult is ever supposed to be in a purely 1-1 interaction with a scout for precisely the same reason that you're trying to get at with your insinuations. The moment I turned 18 in my troop (which is when you are considered an adult in Scouts) I had to attend a lecture on how adults were supposed to interact with the scouts, and how to look for signs of abuse.
I'm not saying that system is perfect, but I think it to be ludicrous to make the point you're getting at.

I know, lets try our favorite game of substitution here: Would your accusations really hold up if you replaced "gay" with "minority x"?
You may try to argue that because gays are sexually attracted to the gender of the youths they are supposed to be supervising, that this makes things different, but I think you can only make this argument when you also make the foolish assumption that all gays are corrupt and immoral...

WOW, my utter sarcasm really did not come across clearly.

To set the record straight. Never was forced to go to church while I was in the scouts. There was ALWAYS more than 2 or 3 male leaders with us. I am sure there was at least one that was gay, can't prove it but suspected it. Never felt uncomfortable with any of the leaders at all.

The only thing I really disagreed with was the god thing which was not that big of a deal.

Now the title of this thread

Commemorative Coin for Bigoted Scouts of America

kind of ticks me off.

'Bigots' really gets thown around here alot. Especially when it comes to gays.

When I was in the scouts, religion and sex was never an issue. It just did not come up.

Now it is an issue and the scouts are BIGOTS!

I disagree. The scouts are not bigots as a whole. There are bigots in there but as an organization, in whole they are not.

As far as the girl scouts, I have seen much more abuse when it came to religion.

alatham: Never meant to imply gayness with pedophila. I was being sarcastic as being role models. Obviously after reading that post I made, it does sound wrong.

Bottom line is, I do not agree on calling an entire organization bigots for what a few stand for.

http://www.jewishscouting.org/

http://www.scouting.org/media/factsheets/02-209.aspx

Jews, Buddhists, etc are supported by the Scouts. Does not sound bigoted to me.

DeepDiver

The scouts are not bigots as a whole. There are bigots in there but as an organization, in whole they are not.

Isn't it official policy that homosexuals cannot participate in the BSA? If so, then the organization is, in fact, bigoted. Or at the very least, discriminatory.

Thank you, DD, for the clarification. I retract any negative things I said or implied about you and I apologize.

That said, I disagree with your disagreement about the word 'bigot.'

The BSA's official policy is:
http://www.bsalegal.org/morally-straight-cases-225.asp

Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. Scouting’s position with respect to homosexual conduct accords with the moral positions of many millions of Americans and with religious denominations to which a majority of Americans belong.

In light of that, I think it's perfectly acceptable to call the BSA (as an organization) bigoted. I do not, however, believe that Boy Scouts (in general, as individuals) are bigots.

One more thing, from that same link:

Boy Scouts of America will not employ atheists, agnostics, known or avowed homosexuals, or others as professional Scouters or in other capacities in which such employment would tend to interfere with its mission of reinforcing the values of the Scout Oath and the Scout Law in young people.

All of that is perfectly legal when the BSA acts as a private enterprise (which has not always been the case), but also clearly bigoted.

I figured out that there were no gods right around the time I entered Boy Scouts, but was too frightened about being ostracized by my family or the BSA that I didn't reveal my atheism to anyone until college. My scoutmaster pushed all in our troop to get their respective religious award. He went to the same church as my parents. Result being, I actively lied about my beliefs. Aces for Obedient, but I kind of screwed up Trustworthy and Reverent. The BSA should annul my Ad Altare Dei award and my Eagle rank. Anyhow, I have mixed feeling about the scouts. Regarding discrimination, I strongly disapprove, but the rest of the program was really good for me. So it's a baby-bathwater thing about the scouts in general. Government support for the BSA is the issue at hand, though, and has been out there for far longer than even the following articles.

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/bsa1.htm

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/bsa6.htm

'Bigots' really gets thown around here alot. Especially when it comes to gays.

Now it is an issue and the scouts are BIGOTS!

I disagree. The scouts are not bigots as a whole. There are bigots in there but as an organization, in whole they are not.

Would you please offer an alternative term to replace "bigots" for an organisation which has as it's official policy "No gays or atheists allowed"?

Individuals involved in the scouts are free to hold whatever prejudices they wish but the problem is that the Boy Scouts as an organisation wants to have bigoted policies while simultaneously receiving public funding and support.

They discriminate against Unitarian Universalists too! The BSA stopped awarding the Religion in Life award to Unitarian Universalists (because of the UUA's criticism of their discriminatory policies against atheists and gays).

Queen Scout, here. Maybe they are doing something right, given the number of atheists here that went through their system. Seriously, though, before I get myself in trouble, two or three anecdotes aren't evidence.

It would seem that BSA have painted themselves into a corner when it comes to preventing abuse. It makes me think that in arriving at the bigoted policy against gays, there may have been just one or two people that reacted badly, due to homophobia, and set the organization on this path.

I looked up the current Scouts Canada policy manual. Looks like the BSA could use them as an example.

7001.6 – Discrimination:
Scouting is a worldwide, multicultural movement. We welcome people to membership regardless of gender, race, culture, religious belief, sexual orientation or economic circumstances.

Why not a coin for the boy & girl scouts at once ,It's kind of one sided ,but then the girl scouts found a way to support themselves selling cookies so they dont need a handout.

On a related note this appeared in our paper on the Scouts.

http://www.statesman.com/opinion
/content/editorial/stories
/05/14/0515krause_edit.html

So I wrote in a letter to the editor and said I can't volunteer though capable because I'm an atheist. We'll see if it gets printed... I usually have about a 15% print rate in the paper at best.

And I couldn't find an email on the local BSA website for the 3 men listed in the article so I sent a copy of the letter to the generic email address info@bsacac.org

no reply still

It's sad, so many good things can come out of scouts, and it shouldn't be limited to only those that fit the "norm" of the bigots who run the organization at this time.

Indeed it is sad. I think as a whole, the BSA does promote useful life skills, teamwork, and a sense of unity. I love to go to the local troops' powwow, where I've stood alonside veterans and nonveterans alike and we bawled our eyes out during the POWMIA dance (with a single dancer draped in a flag). I was so moved I donated to the construction of a permanent arbor on their campground.

On another note, my husband and I watched a progran called "Going Postal" a few weeks ago. We couldn't help but notice that a majority of the men who "went postal" were former respected scout leaders. Coincidence?

Would you please offer an alternative term to replace "bigots" for an organisation which has as it's official policy "No gays or atheists allowed"?

"Blind to certain lifestyles"

A bigot to me is someone like "Archy Bunker". Anyone not 100% like him is wrong. According to his view of course.

Just because someone disagrees with someones lifestyle and accepts most others, is not a reason to call that person a bigot.

For example. (And do not in anyway connect what I am saying here as a referencce to gays) If a murderer serves his time in jail and is released, would you want that person to be a scout leader? I for one would feel uncomfortable. By your definition, I would be a bigot? Now you have gays that want to be leaders. Somepeople are not comfortable for their own blind reasons. People are awakening to the fact that gays are not the evil people they were once thought to be. In a few years, the BSA may wake up and change their stance. Screaming "bigot" is not helping your cause. People do not respond well to open hostility.

Screaming "bigot" is not helping your cause

What's wrong with calling something exactly what it is? The boy scouts of america are bigots and there is no other term for it.

alex, do need some help witf your blockquotes?

Nope. I know how to do blockquotes just fine but for some reason they sometimes turn out a bit wonky. I have taken to double and triple checking that I did them correctly before sending my comments but for whatever reason there is an occasional one thats not right. I have every confidence that you can manage to read my comments though.

Um, is anyone writing their senator? Or are we just chatting?

If the govt. is going to commemorate the Bigot Scouts with a coin and paying them $3.5 million of our tax dollars, they might as well do the same for the John Birch society or perhaps the racist National Alliance too.

Here, I'll make it easy. Google your state's senators and send the following message:

The House recently passed H.R. 5872, the "Boy Scouts of America Centennial Commemorative Coin Act". Please consider that many of your constituents are opposed to this bill for the following reasons, among others:

1. The bill directly gives up to $3.5 million in taxpayer money to this private organization for no apparent government purpose.

2. The organization that is the beneficiary of this bill actively practices discrimination against people with minority religious beliefs or sexual orientations. For these Americans, minting a coin to honor the Boy Scouts is the equivalent of doing the same to honor the John Birch society or the National Alliance. This is a violation of the Constitution's equal protections clause and of the first amendment.

3. The cost to the US Mint of this exercise in political pandering will be tens of millions of dollars. In a time of mushrooming government debt and with the future of Social Security and Medicare in doubt, can we really afford such a frivolous waste? At some point, courageous leaders must stand up and say no.

Please consider these points when this bill reaches the Senate. Thank you for your time.

So Boy Scouts worldwide are not bigoted like the US organization?

Why don't we ask them to do something about the US Scouts?

If the Anglican Communion can do that to the American Episcopalians, why can't the Boy Scouts do the same?

So.. since I was a member of the BSA, I guess I am a bigot?

Thanks Chris B

DeepDiver

So.. since I was a member of the BSA, I guess I am a bigot?

Not necessarily. You just belonged to an organization that incorporates bigotry as official policy.

The Secular Coalition for America sent out the following action alert yesterday. Any of you who want to send a letter to your senators will find an easy way to do so at the end.

Last week the House of Representatives passed legislation (H.R. 5872) creating a commemorative coin for the Boy Scouts of America, an organization that explicitly discriminates against nontheists (as well as gays) in admission, employment, and even volunteer opportunities. By directing the U.S. Mint to produce commemorative coins as a fundraiser for the Boy Scouts of America (BSA), the House is sending an estimated $3.5 million dollars directly to their organization. Now the Senate is beginning to organize efforts to pass the Boy Scouts legislation this summer. You can take action to stop this bill from moving forward by pasting the following address into your browser:

http://action.secular.org/t/5367/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=24662

I know I came in late on this, but I defend the Boy Scouts whenever the opportunity presents itself. Especially when there are so many folks who deliberately distort what the Boy Scouts stand for!

First, it is intellectually dishonest to hijack the term "bigot" and apply it to anyone or any organization that is simply exercising their Constitutionally guaranteed right of free association! This is the heart of the matter as you can't force people to accomodate those that do not share their beliefs.

The Boy Scouts is a PRIVATE organization and has every right to restrict membership to those that believe in God and share the same moral values. This is an example of justifiable discrimination. To discriminate isn't always a bad thing, folks!

I've had many a heated discussion here in the past on this subject and I'm willing to stand up for what is right.

-Tim

It's about values, folks. The arguments used here against the Boy Scouts have a lot in common with those arguing for so-called "Gay Marriage."

Marriage is a social institution and there is no inherent "right" to have it apply to just any type of union between individuals. Like it or not marriage, like the Boy Scouts, receives public support in various forms. Are the majority of Americans bigots because they do not support changing the definition of marriage? We are not and it's absurd to cling to such an argument.

In much the same way as the majority support the traditional definition of marriage, they support the Boy Scouts right to define their organization's tenets. The U.S. Supreme Court has done so as well.

Get over it.

Intolerant:

Not tolerating or respecting beliefs, opinions, usages, manners, etc., different from one's own.

Intolerant refers to an active refusal to allow others to have or put into practice beliefs different from one's own. Bigoted is to be so emotionally or subjectively attached to one's own belief as to be hostile to all others.

from: www.dictionary.com

When I read the above definition again, I realized it applies more readily to folks whose comments I see here.

-Tim

I will explain why I do not believe I am a bigot or intolerant as defined by a lot of folks here.

First, I am not "hostile" to those who do not share my beliefs. I'm willing to live and let live, but where I draw the line is when people actively attempt to deny anyone else their right to practice their beliefs.

For example, the Boy Scouts have a certain set of beliefs. Some of you here may not share them. Unfortunately, it doesn't end there as witnessed by people and organizations like the ACLU actively trying to deny the scouts the ability to run their organization according to their beliefs. If the shoe was on the other foot, you can be sure there would be loud protests and wailing about rights!

Second, I respect the right of others to believe what they want WITHOUT calling them bigots for doing so! There's plenty of intolerance coming at Christians today, but do you ever hear the practitioners being called bigots? No.

Finally, I think the majority of conservatives and Christians are a lot more tolerant than they are given credit for. In fact, I think we tolerate a lot of things that are demonstrably unhealthy for our culture, our children, and our country.

-Tim

Tim

Who doesnt like helping grandma across the street....

the boy scouts cannot call themselves the boy scouts of american when they do not support the 1st amendment....no law respecting an establishment of religion.....

the boy scout management are trashing the club with dumb ideas...

suck it dumb ideas

Tim,

You seem to be trying to convince yourself that you are not a bigot. How is that going? You might consider contacting the Boy Scouts of America, they are a bigot friendly organization. Now keep in mind, don't go with the Girl Scouts, you won't find your bigotry there.

Most christian organizations will also be supportive of various bigoted ideas. There are so many different christian god-ideas I am sure you will find one with just the right blend of bigotry to suit you.

Tim, as you know, the government of the United States by order of the Constitution of the United States must make no law respecting an establishment of religion. The Boy Scouts of America requires its members to be religious therefore, the Boy Scouts of America is an establishment of religion. Legally, the United States government can NOT pass a law that requires the funding of the Boy Scouts of American BECAUSE to do so would require respecting an establishment of religion.

Quoting The Constitution of the United States:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

Bigots hate it when you point out that they are bigots.

rna2dna,

As always, my friend, you can really get things convoluted!

Did you even read my post carefully? I won't try to convince you what the definition of bigotry is because you are obviously not interested in knowing.

On the subject of the constitution and the Boy Scouts, you have really tied yourself into a pretzel! First of all, the Boy Scouts is a PRIVATE organization, NOT a governmental entity! Hello!

Like most people who use your argument, you either don't understand or deliberately misrepresent the intent of this passage in the Constitution! What the framers clearly meant was a STATE religion like the Church of England. Of course it would be unconstitutional to establish a state religion!

Secondly, folks like you ALWAYS leave out the next sentence, "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Sorry to inform you that there is no "wall of separation" in the U.S. Constitution! There is no freedom FROM religion in this country.

Tim,

Get with reality little one.

In no way did I suggest that the bigoted organization known as the Boy Scouts of American is a governmental entity. Grow up little one.

Tim, you're so young. Let me make it more simple for you wee one. You would like the Constitution to say THE establishment of religion, that isn't what the Constitution says. The Boy Scouts of America requires its members to believe in a god-idea, that is discrimination based on religion.

Clearly, young Tim, the second phrase is not at issue under this topic.

Tim when you grow up consider being a comedian, you are quite funny.

Tim:

First, it is intellectually dishonest to hijack the term "bigot" and apply it to anyone or any organization that is simply exercising their Constitutionally guaranteed right of free association! This is the heart of the matter as you can't force people to accomodate those that do not share their beliefs.

By that logic, the Aryan Brotherhood & the John Birch society should receive perhaps a round of cheers for their exercise of their constitutional rights?
& NOT be called bigots?

The Boy Scouts is a PRIVATE organization and has every right to restrict membership to those that believe in God and share the same moral values. This is an example of justifiable discrimination. To discriminate isn't always a bad thing, folks!

Smokin' some more of that ideological crack, I see.

I've had many a heated discussion here in the past on this subject and I'm willing to stand up for what is right.

Hey, we've danced THIS dance before, too.
The Scouts can discriminate, as is their right.
Problem is, they're minor bigots, & as the post points out, MY FUCKING TAX DOLLARS ARE GOING TO A BUNCH OF NECKERCHIEFED ASSHOLES whom I do NOT support.
Pretty much a congressional rubber stamp on discrimination.
They want to ostracize gays & atheists? I can't stop 'em.
They sure as hell can't rifle thru my fucking wallet, either.

rna2dna,

I'm quite sure you are younger than I, both in physical age and maturity. Be that as it may, I will look past the condescending tone and try again.

Read the Federalist papers and come back when you can make a cogent point about the Constitution.

KA,

Join the club. My tax dollars go to organizations that don't share my beliefs as well. As citizens, we don't have the line-item veto.

If the Aryan Brotherhood, the KKK or any other organization has members that are bigoted, then call them bigots if you want. My point still stands in that all I seem to see are people calling anyone who doesn't agree with them "bigots!" Say it ain't so!

Tim,

Ha Ha :)

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that you are chronologically older than me. After all you have had the time to erect a monument to yourself within your own mind.

If you have anything of value to present, do it. Or not, it doesn't matter to me. However, don't expect respect based on what you have presented.

Keep in mind though, I can't help you if you are not willing to help yourself. Tim, you are a bigot because you choose to be not because your bigotry is required.

Tim-MAY!

Like most people who use your argument, you either don't understand or deliberately misrepresent the intent of this passage in the Constitution! What the framers clearly meant was a STATE religion like the Church of England. Of course it would be unconstitutional to establish a state religion!

England's not a state, dufus.
So, what applies to the parts doesn't apply to the sum?

Secondly, folks like you ALWAYS leave out the next sentence, "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Sorry to inform you that there is no "wall of separation" in the U.S. Constitution! There is no freedom FROM religion in this country.

Ummm...hello? Establishment clause? Amendments? They get amended?
Jefferson said it was a wall. Madison said it was a line. Rush wrote a letter protesting the for/against clause.
Playing your little word games. Again.

My point still stands in that all I seem to see are people calling anyone who doesn't agree with them "bigots!" Say it ain't so!

It's so. It is.
When you exclude people based on ideology, sexuality, race, or gender, that makes you what?
Don't say 'a private citizen'. That dog don't hunt.

As a bisexual, and atheist I am ok with the boy scouts not allowing people who share my sexual orientation, and beliefs in, as long as they stay a private organization that is either self funding or gets private donations. This coin that they are putting out is in plain terms the government directly funding them intern funding bigotry. I am not ok with that. As a human being, and as a bisexual atheist I will not stand for it.

rna2dna,

Thank you for the affirmation! I feel so ... Liberated!

You are a moron, but at least you have a sense of humor!

KA,

WTF, man? Can you not discern a simple historical example?

England WAS a country, arguably the most powerful on earth, at the time our forefathers framed the Constitution. THEY knew (unlink you apparently) that a state religion was anathema to freedom! Hence the wording in the Constitution.

Sometimes things really ARE as "plain as the nose on your face." Where have you been looking?

Finally, I'm done with the bigotry definitions - get a dictionary you moron!

Ok everyone needs to chill out. This should be a place for the friendly exchange of ideas. So please calm down, and lets talk like mature individuals.

Thanks,
Brutelord

brutelord,

Well said. "Moron" is about the strongest word I use, but at least it's accurate.

I try very hard not to make things personal here, but I do have my limits!

I try very hard not to make things personal here, but I do have my limits!

Coulda fooled me.

KnowledgeIsPower,

O.K., I will sincerely try to do better!

Its mostly the tone, I think. Lots of exclamation marks, lots of capitalized words. I'm rather sensitive to writing that seems 'busy'. Its why I don't read many of phreedm's posts anymore. The ellipses drive me nuts.

Of course, no reason to change your style on my behalf.