NoGodBlog.com

sounds great!!!!...but who is coming out??...and dont you think as ronald reagan jr says"i would be unelectable im a atheist as we all know that is something people wont except"...also never underestamate the ignorance of the american public...just being pragmatic.

sounds great!!!!...but who is coming out??...and dont you think as ronald reagan jr says"i would be unelectable im a atheist as we all know that is something people wont except"...also never underestamate the ignorance of the american public...just being pragmatic.

Hey Dave,

Can I borrow those rose colored glasses? :)

Seriously, I fervently hope you are right, but I just don't see it, at least not in my lifetime (I hope another 30 years if I'm fortunate). I'll bet if you asked ten people at random on the street, at least half of them wouldn't even know what the word atheist means. Then, once you explained it, you'd get an extremely negative reaction from nine out of ten.

But whatever it takes, and however I can help - sign me up!

Sorry, I'm just not that optimistic, especially living in the backyard of all these Mor(m)ons. I see on a constant basis the massive ignorance involved in religion, and it's sheep, and that's going to take a hell of a lot longer than 15 years to change, even by a decent amount.

Do you honestly think things will change that much in 15 years in the buybull belt?

Do you honestly think things will change that much in 15 years in the buybull belt?

Just look how far the gay rights movement has come in the last 15 years. Once people have had all that they can take the anger can be very motivational in organising and bringing about change.

Yesterday near my town a two-year-old boy being looked after at a church day-care fell into a forgotten sump-pump tank and nearly drowned. Today, word from the hospital is that he will recover, but apparently it is thanks go GAWD! How do I know this? Because the NBC affiliate gave the preacher lots of air time to tell the listening area how great Gawd is, how it was Gawd's will, how Gawd was looking out for this precious child. (Excuse me, I have to run to the bathroom and throw up!)

A moment later I clicked on this blog and see that in another fifteen years all the discrimination will be behind us. Wow!

I would love to believe that I will see the day when atheists are the norm rather than the exception, but how much hope do I have? Zip! Nada! NONE!

But dream on, the world needs dreamers.

Dear friends,
I have thought long and hard about the decision I made about withdrawing my sponsorship of "The Atheist Viewpoint".

This has not been an easy decision to make because I am torn between what the board did to Ellen and the fact that the voice of Atheism and rational thought must never be dimmed.

Today I read and heard numerous times of the comments that "reverend" John Haggee made about the catholic church and also that "god sent Adolf Hitler to the jews"...

I am attaching just one of the articles on Hagge and how John McCain has now rejected the Haggee endorsement. Hopefully this will show the nation how ridiculous and frightening fundamentalist religion really is.
After seeing that Haggee will be picking up where the (thankfully) departed delusional Jerry Falwell left off in his outrageous "faith filled" mindless spewing of hate, I have decided while I do not agree with the boards decision to fire Ellen, I must (after really thinking hard about this) yield to the greater good of continuing to give American Atheists a "voice" in the very catholic and evangelical/ protestant populated city of "saint" cloud, MN.

I have decided to continue my membership in American Atheists as well as continue to sponsor "The Atheist Viewpoint " here on Charter Cable Channel 12 on Tuesday evenings at 7:30 PM Central Time.

Please know that my greatest and most sincere hope is that Ellen and the board can work through all of their difficulties and Ellen will be re-instated as President and Co-Host of "The Atheist Viewpoint".

I care about Ellen and I care about the future of American Atheists.

I finally had to realize that much, much more was at stake here than we realize.....

The very survival of the human race is in jeopardy if fundamentalist, irrational religious zealots like John Haggee are not challenged with rationality, proof of the lies and errors of the bible and stopped.

I hope that all of you, especially Ellen can understand my position.

I met so many of you wonderful people at the American Atheists convention in Minneapolis and you all made me proud to be counted among you as a fellow secular humanist.
Please. Make me proud again. Let's all try to work together for a rational world and put our differences aside once and for all for the common good. Our world and the future of our human species is literally at stake here.

Timothy, please continue to mail me Atheist Viewpoint Episodes.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Jack Richter An American Atheist...just like YOU!

McCain Denounces Hagee Updated 5:10 p.m. By Juliet Eilperin and Michelle Boorstein Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) today rejected the endorsement of megachurch pastor and ardent Zionist John Hagee after learning of a sermon in which Hagee posited that Nazism was God's will. Hagee's sermon was delivered in the late 1990s but a video of it began circulating widely this week on the Web on the site talk2action, which monitors the religious right. The sermon calls Hitler a "hunter," a reference to the Book of Jeremiah, which quotes God saying he "will restore [the Jews] to the land I gave to their forefathers." Hagee is one of the country's best-known evangelical Christian Zionists; he founded a pro-Israel alliance of Christian groups and has donated tens of millions from his Texas-based ministry to support humanitarian causes in Israel. He has said he is driven by the belief that the creation of the state of Israel, and the return of Jews to Palestine, are God's will. "A hunter is someone with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter," Hagee says in the sermon. "And the Bible says -- Jeremiah writing -- 'They shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and from the holes of the rocks,' meaning there's no place to hide. And that might be offensive to some people but don't let your heart be offended. I didn't write it, Jeremiah wrote it. It was the truth and it is the truth. How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen. Why did it happen? Because God said my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel." When asked what McCain thought of the remarks, campaign spokesman Tucker Bounds responded with an e-mail from the candidate, denouncing Hagee. "Obviously, I find these remarks and others deeply offensive and indefensible, and I repudiate them," McCain said. "I did not know of them before Reverend Hagee's endorsement, and I feel I must reject his endorsement as well." The comments represented a significant shift by McCain, who had refused to reject Hagee's endorsement despite controversial comments Hagee has made about Catholicism and his implication that Hurricane Katrina represented divine retribution. After learning of those comments, McCain said just because he accepts -- or seeks -- someone's endorsement doesn't mean he endorses that person's views. At roughly the same time McCain rejected Hagee's endorsement, the reverend issued a statement saying he was withdrawing it to prevent any further damage to the presumptive GOP nominee's candidacy. "Ever since I endorsed John McCain for president, people seeking to attack Senator McCain have combed my records for statements they can use for political gain. They have had no qualms about grossly misrepresenting my position on issues most near and dear to my heart if it serves their political ambitions," Hagee said in the statement. "I am tired of these baseless attacks and fear that they have become a distraction in what should be a national debate about important issues. I have therefore decided to withdraw my endorsement of Senator McCain for President effective today, and to remove myself from any active role in the 2008 campaign." The senator also made an effort to draw a distinction between his link to the controversial megapreacher and Sen. Barack Obama's (D-Ill.) ties to Chicago Rev. Jeremiah Wright. Wright's incendiary remarks about the U.S. government have dogged Obama for months. "I have said I do not believe Senator Obama shares Reverend Wright's extreme views. But let me also be clear, Reverend Hagee was not and is not my pastor or spiritual advisor, and I did not attend his church for twenty years," McCain said in the statement. "I have denounced statements he made immediately upon learning of them, as I do again today."

an organization needs both "dreamers" and "doers". most folks can do one or the other but some can do both.

if you had a well funded army of one million atheist dreamers/doers it would still be my opinion that atheists will not be accepted by the majority of earthlings in the foreseeable future. even if it could be proven conclusively that there was no god, it would still take several hundred years to even have 50 percent of the world population accept it and give up the fairy tales. it's just human nature and you can't change that even with hard facts.

example, in a jury trial, the truth is less important than who can sway the jury. a good defense attorney may know the truth but many times it is irrelevant to the defense strategy.

hell, the pope may think deep down that god may not exist, but he still ain't gonna spill the beans to the flock. the big con must go on.....

Completely off-topic, but may be especially fun for atheists:

http://www.adultswim.com/games/fiveMinutes/

It's a shockwave game in which the main character decides that if he receives one more meeting request he's going to kill himself. The request comes and he's off to the races to find anything and everything (or anyone) that is willing to kill him.

There are two Workplace Preachers (we all know the type) in this game. You can provoke them into doing harm to you with religious stupidity and good old-fashioned smiting. The theme of the game is suicide which, if you have been paying attention really pisses xians off. You know, that whole "you'll burn in hell if you commit suicide" deal (though muslim fundamentalists might be right at home with the idea as long as a few infidels are harmed in the making of this suicide bombing).

There's a few pop culture/movie references to get a smile out of you (especially if you take the elevators to the floors above and below).

Yes, it's optimistic and aggressive, but it IS doable, and it IS within reach. It took women over a 100 years to reach general equality, and the gays will do it in 40 (OK these are general statements, don't jump on me for specifics and don't diverge into "what is general equality"). We can do it in 15 IF we don't give up before we try. Internal and external forces are all pointing our way.

My prediction is that 15 years from now we'll either have achieved most of our goal or lost miserably. Complete change? No. But we can make so much progress than you expect.

I'm a dreamer, yes. But I'm telling you this dream is doable. An organized full-scale assault against our weakened enemy will not bring them to bankruptcy, but that's not what I'm seeking. I'm looking only for a secure country and a secure constitution, with secure equal rights.

This is not an endless fight.

It's easy to say we should all cooperate, and I have some pretty good ideas on exactly how this should happen, but I think the big next step should be to get more congresspeople to come out as Atheists.

You might begin by avoiding bigoted comments, such as the ones contained in your previous post.

I find your penchant for intolerance eerily reminiscent of fundamentalism. As a non-believer I would like to see my point of view, particularly my view in opposition to sweeping dogma, represented by someone who is not sweepingly dogmatic. When you post such things as your previous post it makes you look petulantly immature.

The purpose of a for-profit corporation is money, but the purpose of a non-profit org is quite literally to go out of business because there is no need for the organization anymore. Non-profits are suicidal -- They want to die.

Dave...you've got to be kidding. Name one major non-profit group that wants to die...?

Name one major non-profit group that attained their goals and closed up shop...?

Whether it's "for profit" or "not for profit" the world revolves around money...period..

Dave

I think you are right. I don't think it is an overly optimistic appraisal. We are in many ways at a juncture similar to that see in Europe before religion took its nose dive there.

Jack

If AA does not come clean with respect to the firing of Ellen I will be taking my optimism to FFRF.

The clock is ticking ...

Wow! Phreeky really is THAT stupid.

It does feel as if the current level of hysterical fundy lunacy is collapsing in on them a bit. But it wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last.

Rather than merely have members of congress "come out", I think it would be refreshing to have ANYONE of lofty political status -- regardless of their religion -- to react to the blantantly unfair and assinine proposals of fundies with the increduous scorn it deserves.

We need to get to the point as a nation where religious descrimination taboos are extended to atheists as well. We need to get to the point where someone suggesting that atheists aren't American enough to have a high public office is as roundly condemned as suggesting the same thing about any other demographic.

Are we 15 years from that? I just watched an episode of South Park, one of the most evenhanded shows produced today (ep: "Red Hot Catholic Love") in which the thoughts and words of atheists in general were portrayed as being analogous to crapping out of our mouths.

I guess I'm not feeling it. As THX1138 has been suggesting, putting people on the defensive doesn't help us. Most Americans are decent, and if they have horrible opinions, it's not necessarily "actively" held so much as residual. Most Americans see nutjobs like Jerry Falwell for what they are. But few people understand how the worst fundies think -- only what they do. But few people in America have the slightest clue what an atheist is -- only what they do.

So when the only sound/video bytes, articles, protests, etc, most Americans see is atheists bashing fundies, is it any wonder why we get classed in the same boat and roundly dismissed?

Telling people "it's OK to be an atheist" doesn't really accomplish what we might think it does, any more than "we're here, we're queer, get used to it!" chants from the gay community accomplishes any more than what they think it does.

What needs to be brought to people's attention isn't that atheists are right, or fundies are wrong, or that "there are more of us than you think"-type actions. What needs to be brought to the forefront, IMO, is the fundamental unjustness of descrimination.

That's why the gay community has gotten as far along as they have in America, and women before them, and blacks before them. It finally got under people's skin to the point where more and more people are willing to consider them all to be, first and foremost, people that should be treated fairly, and "those people I don't like or agree with" second.

Dammit -- I should never post at this hour. My appologies for the length of this.

It seems to me that McCain is far and away the least religious of all the major candidates and although I sympathize with the frustration with the Iraq situation, I'm seeing the attacks on him as a way of opening the door to a certain moderator's preference for a socialized America. One thing that has always bugged me about this blog is the assumption that just because we're all atheists that we all have the same political goals.

Am I the only one here who feels this way?

Here you go:

1. Tammy Baldwin, D GLBT (relig. affil. unspecified)

2. John Olver, D unspecified

3. John Tierney, D unspecified

4. Earl Blumenauer, D unspecified

5. Neil Abercrombie, D Protestant (raised)

6. Nancy Johnson, R Unitarian-Universalist

Here are six who either are non-specified and unrepentant or give a non-major monotheist religion answer. Source: http://www.adherents.com/adh_congress.html#109

The SCA stated that there were several non-judeo-christian agnostic or non-believers in Congress.

put a silly hat and robe on someone and give them jesus on a stick....

its a lot poop

http://www.freakingnews.com/Pope-Pictures--618.asp

joelwe: No you are not alone.

Okay Dave, let's think about this. And by the way, you may be a dreamer, but I like your determination and I'm crossing my fingers for all of us.

You are thinking we should get more congress people to come out and say they don't believe. My thinking about those in congress is that this isn't a bad idea, I suppose, but not a great one either. Ninety percent of the public wouldn't know who they were even if they bared their souls unless it was (maybe) their own represenative.

We already have quite a few Hollywood types who are atheists and haven't been afraid to say so. Let's use them. Let's recruit them and make commercials--30 second spots that say, "Hey folks, I may be an actor, but I'm just a regular guy who happens to be a rational thinker (or whatever)." People, especially younger people, tend to emulate celebrities. And while we're at it, let's ask them to help pay for those commercials. It's their world too, and there is probably nothing better any of us could contribute to than to work toward the end of fantasy thinking.

This country is celebrity-stupid. I'm thinking celebrities are more recognizable than congress people and would make a bigger impact.

I appreciate you Dave but Texas being acceptable to atheism in 15 years? The big city folks wishing there weren't many atheists and towns like Cuero Texas that has a large sign as you enter town that says

Jesus is King of Cuero

are two different levels of optimism in mindsets changing.

yup. 15 years. Lots of Atheists in Texas. But God I like the celebs too.

I think a big part of our challenge is going to involve figuring out how best to sustain the momentum we have built. If we can do that, we stand to see great progress.

Dave,
Before you leave for the Memorial Day Weekend, may I respectfully ask if you have personally spoken with Ellen Johnson and has Ellen been able to tell you her side of the conflict with the American Atheists Board?

I want to remain an active dues paying member of American Atheists and also continue to sponsor the "Atheist Viewpoint" television program and I sincerly hope you will answer my above questions in the interest of fairness.

I think that in the interest of ethics and honesty it would be a wonderful thing if you could please post if Ellen has been able to present her side of this issue to the board and to you, and if you and the board have responded to Ellen.

I am just wondering if any dialog is taking place between all of you and if there is any chance that Ellen (as Bart Meltzer alluded too) could possibly be re-instated as President or if she will actually remain on staff as a board member.

I posted this on this blog as it is the most current blog.

Thanks very much Dave for your answer, much appreciated and please know my own wish to work for the betterment of all and move on with this issue. I just wanted to make sure all parties are acting ethically.

Hope you can understand.

Appreciativley,
Jack

Why do some posters see support for atheism as either/or, i.e. AA or FFRF. Why not both? Don't say because of cost as membership cost is peanuts in today's economy.
Niko Theris, supporter of both.

Niko, If fact, people should support the FFRF, AA, AAI, and their local groups. A little support goes a long way. Pitting an either/or is counter-productive to the cause we all support.

Jack, I have exchanged emails with Ellen. I have NOT heard her side, simply because she has not volunteered it. She can give it any time she wants and has had ample opportunity. Her account here is still active -- she can post anytime.

My guess is that because she is classy and dedicated, that she is not going to voice "her side" because the issue is already final and there is no reason to cause ill-will. We've had a very big problem in this movement with ill-will, and she's usually been on the front lines trying to fight it.

Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has asked her to keep silent. She is still a board member. She is still involved. She's just not in charge anymore. My very strong opinion is that this is permanent.

I think we're all trying to move forward.

Niko and Dave

Niko, If fact, people should support the FFRF, AA, AAI, and their local groups. A little support goes a long way. Pitting an either/or is counter-productive to the cause we all support.

It is certainly not my intention to pit one against the other. But I will put my support where I think it is best spent. My confidence in AA has been severely shaken by it's management of the issue with Ellen Johnson. The opacity that surrounds the event is very damaging. As I said I will be making my decision in June about where my support goes in the future.

Joelwe

It seems to me that McCain is far and away the least religious of all the major candidates

I don't agree . I think the differences between the candidates with respect to religiosity is insignificant. More importantly McCain has shown, like almost all of the GOP, that he is willing to incorporate into the GOP party platform the insanity of theists.

... and although I sympathize with the frustration with the Iraq situation, I'm seeing the attacks on him as a way of opening the door to a certain moderator's preference for a socialized America.

Is there something wrong with that?

McCain is a scoundrel. He was a member of the Keating Five - not somebody that you would want in office as the economy comes apart due lax regulation and oversight of the financial investment industry.

Joelwe

Oh and a big sarcastic thank you (It's only led to the deaths of 100s of thousands of Iraqis, the displacement of 4 million and the loss of 4000+ US service people and 500 billion dollars and counting) for sympathizing "with the frustration with the Iraq situation" - a situation that could have been avoided if McCain had not thrown his support behind our war criminal president.

Can you give one example where McCain has consistently shown good judgment of any consequence that differs from that of Obama?

David
atheism standing alone cannot carry the day.too often atheism is seen as selfishness now couple it with the chinese philosophy of legalism and we have a fighting chance.we should not lose sight that the essential nature of humanity is selfish and evil.

What
there is no difference between mccain,clinton,obama.none will pull out of iraq.

Dave,
Thanks very much for your response to my blog and your upfront answer.

I agree with your statement that Ellen is probably too classy to publicly comment on this blog on what has already been done, and being that she remains on the board of directors, I am sure we will not see a comment.

Thanks again for your response, and by all means I want to move forward.....

Jack

reason, are you essentially selfish and evil?

reason, Obama probably would (not if faced with overwhelming opposition), Clinton might, McBush would not.

But then, McBush saw the hand of his god-idea in the Grand Canyon. He didn't specify why his god-idea had lost its hand there.

reason

What
there is no difference between mccain,clinton,obama.none will pull out of iraq.

Like Rna2dna said. Care to make a wager whether Obama will follow the time line he has laid out. I will give you excellent odds. It would take an act of gawd to deter Obama which means its in the bag.

Besides Grand Ayatollah Sistani may be issuing a fatwa soon that declares it is OK for the shiite masses to kill the occupier. When that happens we will either have to leave or "liberate" every Iraqi. Only a mad dog like McBush would do the latter.

reason

Like Rna2dna said ... except for the evil part.

Dave

My guess is that because she is classy and dedicated, that she is not going to voice "her side" because the issue is already final and there is no reason to cause ill-will.

But Dave she has not offered her support for the present AA administration. Why is that?

Also saying that she is "not going to voice her side" because she is "classy and dedicated" could easily be seen as a taunt - an I-dare-you-to-say-anything-and-therefore-demonstrate
-that-you are-not-classy taunt.

Comment from: reason

I'm seeing the attacks on him as a way of opening the door to a certain moderator's preference for a socialized America.

Comment from: What

Is there something wrong with that?

This is what America will look like if Obama gets elected...and What, I'm sure you'll have no objections...

http://www.stoptheaclu.com/archives/2008/05/23/maxine-waters-socialize-the-oil-companies/

Notice how 2 of her colleagues laughed at Maxine Waters...

Now...talk about being stupid.

"I'll tell you my impression. We really in this last election - when

I say we, the Democrats - I think pushed it as far as we can to the envelope. We didn't say it, but we implied it, that we if we won the congressional elections, we could stop the war. Now anybody who was a good student of government knew that wasn't true.(none on this blog) But you know, the temptation to want to win back the Congress, we sort of stretched the facts.(can you say "lied?")"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=q4Uw5ypyf4g

What other lies do you believe...?

phreedm
i didn't write that.
i do think that we are going to see some expansion of gov't regardless of who is elected.
another prediction cal.voters will ban gay marriage.

Phreeky seems to not understand how many votes it takes to override a presidential veto. No surprise there. What a dolt!

Reason

I'm not an expert on the CA state constitution but I think that since the recent court decision was made by the California Supreme Court then at this point they would need an amendment to the state constitutional to ban gay marriage. That will not happen.

This may be of interest to some.

I've been told that the AA Board Of Directors voted to fund the Bill Moore Freedom Walk after all. Apparently this happened between the time Ellen posted on the blog that they weren't funding it (Apr 25), and the time Ellen was fired (around May 1).

I'm pretty sure the only Board meeting in that time frame was the conference call in which Ellen was fired. So the Board must have voted to fund the walk and to fire Ellen in the very same meeting.

So even though they didn't approve of it and thought it was too risky from a liability standpoint (Frank says), the Board voted to fund the walk. Then they undermined the walk in the worst possible way by firing Ellen right in the middle of the it.

66 days until my membership runs out. I can hardly wait.

How can I find out how Ellen is progressing on her Bill Moore Freedom walk?
Niko Theris

Niko,

She completed the walk on May 7.

More info here...
http://www.alabamaatheist.org/fw2k8/#UPDATES

Comment from: reason

another prediction cal.voters will ban gay marriage.

They already have...

Now what's that about a government by the people for the people...?

Thank you jeff_r

Niko Theris

JOO R SO FELLL RIGHT NAO!111!!!elven JOO DUN NO NETHIN BOUT STUFFZ

Atheistssuckballs,
I'd like to respond,but you will have to communicate in english please.

Atheistssuckballs

Pwning. UR doing it rong. Epic FAIL.

Now I'm gonna have to go back to high school and flunk out again.

As an atheist female, I'd much rather suck the penis :P

I see another intelligent xian troll has graced our presence.

Why, after that bit of insight, I'm all but convinced that we're wrong, and the troll is right.

Where the hell do these people come from?

And why don't they know how the english language works?

Chances are "atheistssuckballs" has revealed why christianity is on the verge of collapse. They really don't have anything to say as they try to sell the same lame ass fairytale over and over.

There are three major atheist organizations functioning today in America and chances are there are atheist meetups in most states. Couldn't have said that a few decades ago. We also have Homer Simpson to thank for cracking the foundation of religion and South Park slams atheists but not nearly as much as religion.

Turn on childrens cartoons to see kids today are exposed to a lot of aliens and I don't mean from Mexico. Kids are already open to the existence of life outside the Judeo/Christian fairytale(too bad many of those cartoons are violence prone).

Did you see Britian has just declassified their entire UFO coverup/investigation? In response, the pope had his astronomer state that yes indeed the god that created Adam and Eve also created aliens. This is all too funny. The baloon of religion is filling up with air and it is on the verge of implosion.

Just in the last couple decades many transitional fossils have been unearthed. The Hubble telescope has given us a glimpse at 230 some planets outside our little corner of reality. Astrophysicists via the Hubble telescope have reached the conclusion our universe is 13 1/2
billion light years across and by the way we are surrounded on all sides by other universes. Apparently we are like a frog egg in a pod of frog eggs and no one knows how big the pond is. If you made it to the convention you also heard Lawrence Krauss explain that nothing is something.

Also after all, archeology has dug down farther then the Jewish folk tales can explain.
Just how long can religion explain away reality? How long can they downsize truth?

We will probably not convert too many adults here but I'm certain we are supposed to be trying to prevent new dogs from learning old tricks.
We need to move beyond the present turmoil and set a coherent example of how to live without the crutch of religion.

The dude "atheistssuckballs" has my sympathy, his little world is falling in around him and he has nothing to say in defense of it.

Why do most people on this blog not use their real name? How many of you are christians here to bicker like "ASB" is here to create turmoil.

Mark Farris

Comment from: phreedm

This is what America will look like if Obama gets elected...and What, I'm sure you'll have no objections...

http://www.stoptheaclu.com/archives/2008/05/23/maxine-waters-socialize-the-oil-companies/

this is what amerikkka will look like if the republican'ts steal the election again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy

I'm sure phreakshow will not be able to express any dissent, or allowed to have any objections, once McClueLess declares himself gawd king (after he gets rid of the current one)...

Mark Farris

Just how long can religion explain away reality?

Good question. Here's my response to it.

One of religions worst enemies is time - in particular time-scale. In the past the time-scale of scientific/technological discovery was relatively long as compared to present day. Religions could take advantage of this long time-scale by quietly modifying religious doctrine and allowing it to slowly come more in to sync with new facts. This allowed them to maintain the essential ingredient to religion - the appearance of an absolutist philosophy. But today's (and possibly tomorrow's) shorter time-scale of scientific/technical discovery makes the catch-up game that religion has played-out quietly in the past more easily detectable in the present. Religion can therefore be expected to lose the facade of absolutism as the catch-up game becomes more obvious to the masses. Without this essential ingredient religion will fade away.

Our goals are obtainable in 15 years IF we overcome the following obstructions and operate with 100% efficiency:

1) NON-SCIENTIFIC APPROACH. We can see that science is the most reliable source of information we have, but we are doing nothing to study the most effective way of acheiving our objectives. What is the most effective recruiting strategy? What motivates action and donation? How localized should the organization be? How have minorities succeeded at gaining their rights in the past? How have they failed? Karl Rove built an organization of experts studying polls, focus groups, demographic facts, and voting maps and got a draft dodging buffoon who can't speak in public elected president within a few years. What's our excuse for producing little more than rants?

2) UNITY & DEDICATION. Members and activists need to quit being so sensitive that some group of people quits en masse every time the organization does anything. Likewise, leaders need to keep a "big tent" approach instead of having the organization take positions on irrelevant topics. Not everyone can be boss and nobody gets everything they want. Deal with it or continue to be marginalized.

3) CREATING REWARDS. Church members receive a social and professional network, recreational opportunities, community support and charity, child care, education, facilities usage, psychological comfort, and support for their political ambitions from their organizations. Atheists just blog and rarely meet each other. No wonder xians get more dedication out of their flock. It's time we filled the void on our end by focusing on building vibrant local grassroots organizations that do more than meet up and argue.

4) COUNTERING STEREOTYPES. The word atheist for many people conjures an image of an angry, unstable person who simply finds religion repulsive on an emotional level and decides not to believe as an attempt to lash out. That's obviously false but it must be countered anyway. Why do you think leaders of the civil rights movement dressed in business suits? -To counter the stereotypes that blacks were uneducated or criminal. We will have to always be civil, moderate, and intelligent to counter the stereotypes against us (and not be baited into doing otherwise).

In other words, we can be effective or ineffective and I have no idea which way it will go... Your thoughts?

Chris B

1-4 are hard to disagree with. 100% efficiency?

In other words, we can be effective or ineffective

and anything in between. I think what we should do is pick an election and organize atheists to vote en bloc in that election as a show of force.

And I realized something: Our goals are attainable.

"Our goals"???
The problem with the "organization" and the "movement" are that there are no clear goals and that American Atheists has habitually resorted to making fun of christianity and islam while occasionally threatening legal action against establishment clause violations that are brought to light.

Atheists have done alot in being more vocal in hearing themselves talk and slapping each other on the back, but we haven't taken any steps forward in gaining a foothold in society while pushing religion to the side.

A couple popular books by Harris and Dawkins along with some conventions is no victory. Writings of Thomas Paine and Robert G Ingersoll didn't change American society to a state of rationalism and we shouldn't sit back and hope it happens this time because some contemporary freethinkers spoke out and got published.

Want change? Identify and set goals, make a temporary plan, start the plan, organize, adjust the plan(s) to changing circumstances, adopt successful tactics and strategies of other movements, keep focused on goals, put egos aside, organize, educate and outreach some more, set monthly, quarterly and yearly goals that support the major goals, set up a timeline of progress to work by, never give up or give in.