NoGodBlog.com

Hi Joe

How do you plan on making Texas high school students aware of your challenge? YouTube alone?

I like the idea a lot.

Yep Great Idea.....once young minds get past blasphemy they will be well on thier way to seeing how ridiculous religion, especially monotheism, really is....

maybe we should not be against teaching the bible in schools....as long as there are no blasphemy rules...and all questions can be entertained....hmmmmm

Will Joe or American Atheists help pay for the medical bills or funeral expenses of the kids that express their true opinions of genocide, rape and misogyny?

In a Jeebus drenched environment anyone that begins to speak the truth is likely to receive an extremely hostile reaction.

With the fervently religious deluded, ridiculing their stupidity in a Bible class is likely to evoke a reaction similar to what would happen if a person went to church and started yelling at the pastor.

I'm all for confronting stupidity and calling things what they really are, but I'd hate to see some bright young atheist teen in a hospital because fellow students decided to share the Good News of Gawd's luv.

Why not teach comparative religion like in Europe? why just bible classes? American kids are woefully ignorant when it comes to their own religion but even more so the religion of others.

Hmmm...Joe,

I believe you're going about it all wrong...

If a teacher were to use this class and discuss the very questions you bring up, it would be in violation of the restrictions placed on the teaching of the course...

However, if a child raises the questions you present, it opens the doors for the teachers to expand on what the bible teaches...

The bible is being taught from the standpoint of literature...

Not to insult your writing abilities, but just about every great author recognizes the bibles literary value...

You should have given a bit more thought to your challenge...

Question...

Since your so quick to complain about others work in society...

Under your leadership what charity work has the Texas chapter of AA accomplished over say the past year...?

It's not being taught "as literature". Literature is the excuse being used to teach the bible as truth.

What - I'm hoping to get some media attention for it, but yes, I'm able to reach a lot of people on Youtube, and at no financial cost. I also have a big e-mail list of Atheists I send these posts to, and I also post them to AtheistNation.net, this blog, and I'm set to do at least one guest spot on an online radio show for Atheists. So not just Youtube, although Youtube is awesome.

It would really help this project and our movement if we all check out and help pass around videos like this one.

UnGodly - I hear ya. Well this is why I said to use respect when asking these questions. Usually we don't have a problem with that, even among our young student Atheists.

No, if someone gets hurt because they asked these questions with respect, AA and I cannot pay for that. But if that were to happen, it would've happened eventually. It would also make a great lawsuit, and most teachers of any subject at all try to avoid litigation over their teaching.

We shall see how this turns out, if at all. I'm more concerned that too many Atheists won't ever hear about this. That's why I'm trying to get on talkshows about it.

Not to insult your writing abilities, but just about every great author recognizes the bibles literary value...

Like these pearls of literature?

God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all.
Genesis7:21-23
After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both mast##bation and birth control.Genesis 38:8-10
God describes the torments that he has planned for those who displease him. The usual stuff: plagues, burning fevers that will consume the eyes, etc. but he reserves the worst for the little children. He says "ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it," "I will send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children," and "ye shall eat the flesh of your sons and daughters."Leviticus 26:16 39
Under God's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins -- Wow! (Even God gets some of the booty -- including the virgins.)Lev 31:1-54
Two sisters were guilty of "committing whoredoms" by pressing their breasts and bruising "the teats of their virginity." As a punishment, one sister's nakedness was discovered, her children were taken from her, and she was killed by the sword. And the fate of the surviving sister was even worse: Her nose and ears were cut off, she was made to "pluck off" her own breasts, and then after being raped and mutilated, she is stoned to death.Ezekiel 23:1-49

Great stuff!!!!!

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, his mother, and wife, and children, and bretheren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple"

Luke 14:26

Comment from: Friday Pirate

It's not being taught "as literature". Literature is the excuse being used to teach the bible as truth.

How do you know?

Somebody said students actually need to learn about the Bible in order to learn about the history of the Western Hemisphere. I like to remind them that the Bible doesn't mention America or Europe, nor does it mention democracy, equality for women, blacks, immigrants, and it certainly doesn't mention anything about "innocent until proven guilty." After over a THOUSAND years of Christians being in charge of the Western Hemisphere, the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" came only recently. If the Bible was a good book, it could stand on it's own, but it cannot.

Good idea to encourage free thinking students to attend, really attend, these classes.

Couple of items of note:

-In the video, there was the statement that "of course they won't" be able to answer the hard questions on the bible. Might be true, but we shouldn't predispose students to expect a good or bad response to such questions. They should be told to scrutinize everything they are told... from "us" and from "them"...and not just take it on "authority".

-I did major in literature, and while I am no expert, I'd say that any written work that becomes important in human history (for good or for bad), becomes part of "literature". Bibles *could* be taught as literature, and I'd at least leave open the possibility (maintaining a healthy level of doubt that this is the case, of course). That in mind, if these students really look at what this "literature" says, and not what someone says it says, then I think they will have the best chance of really determining for themselves what the role this book or any other should have in shaping their lives.

Comment from: Joe Zamecki

I like to remind them that the Bible doesn't ...mention democracy, equality for women, blacks, immigrants

Joe...you're showing your ignorance of a topic you know very little about...

and it certainly doesn't mention anything about "innocent until proven guilty."

This I'll grant you...similar to the fact that the "myth" is found nowhere in the Constitution...

Can you give an example of a "non-christian" nation that developed this foundation for law?

If atheists enroll in these classes, it will just give the school board inflated class enrollment statistics with which to seek even more bible related curriculum.

fireemblem555 I don't think that's going to be a significant percentage of the overall classes. There are a great many public high schools in Texas, and not all of them will actually have these classes in the first place.
But just the sheer intellectual agony that many reasoning people experience when they sit through mass will probably keep most of our potential activists from joining those "classes."
If I wasn't an activist, I surely wouldn't join a Bible class, no matter how much you paid me. And even as a rabid Atheist activist, I probably wouldn't do it.
If a lot of godless students join these classes, we'll have that much more of an activist presence where it's needed.
I would think that a lot of Christians would avoid these classes. When I was a Christian, going to church twice a week for several years was more than enough, even when I was at my most devout.
I dunno...

mdetrano Well I've studied the Bible, and not by choice, but in a very intense and academic way. Catholic school.
If the Bible is "literature," then all that is "literature" is brought down in value to humanity, in my humble opinion.
Teaching a class on the Satanic Bible would be more appropriate just because it's a modern work, and we know exactly who wrote it.
There's a ton of other reasons to discard the Bible from any serious notions of "literature." All you have to do is pick it up and read the filth and abuse and glorification of religious war, and you really shouldn't consider it legitimate literature of any kind.
A public school is supposed to take academic revelance into consideration, not just historical. They should teach about what's been done with the Bible, not what's in the Bible. But they're not talking about doing that. The fictional garbage in the Bible renders it beneath the lowest of the low in "literature."
I guess if I had had a choice in whether to take Bible classes, I wouldn't care about it's content so much. We're talking about exposing porn in print to minors. It's just plain wrong.

"relevance"

Joe

Joe
anything in the works to teach students that the texas constitution treats atheists as 2nd class citizens.

reason - Just me. I'm going to mention that here and there to the media whenever I can. However it should be known to all that that particular part of the Texas Constitution isn't enforceable anymore, since Madalyn O'Hair sued over it. It's now null and void. She won, but the only way for that law to be removed from the Texas Constitution is for it to be repealed by the Texas Legislature, which ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes, probably.
I'm just glad that we Atheists have such liberties now that some other loudmouthed Atheists worked so hard on this many years ago.

keep up the good work Joe.texas demographics are changing it is going to get rough before the dust settles but it might provide a chance to spread enlightment.

Good work, Joe. I wish everybody could take the workshop I once took titled "The Bible Rated Triple-X" in which an old ex-Presbyterian minister exposed all the dirty parts of the Bible and each day ended up with something nice and beautiful from the Bible just to show that there's a lot of different stuff in the Bible. I particularly liked your Youtube video and the t-shirt you were wearing at the time. It was good to me to see a Church of Christ abandoned and boarded up. Here in Raleigh, NC i often see young dudes skateboarding on the porch of a big Baptist church-- they are putting that property to good use for a change!

very good

This is a little different, but still fun critique on god's existence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVNAluWQmAg

Does anyone know what requirements the teachers need to have in order to teach the bible? Does it fall under Literature? History? As a public school teacher who is "highly qualified" in both, and an atheist, I may be qualified for one of those jobs! It is a fine line those teachers will trod, but any self respecting teacher will teach those kids just what we all know: it is not good literature and it is NOT to be read as literal history. Maybe we will get some converts out of these classes. Imagine!

I found the PDF of this law.

http://www.tea.state.tx.us/sboe/schedule/2008/july/instruction/attachments/1_bible_a1.pdf

It looks like individual School Boards are being given the green light to design their own class standards and decide who will teach it. Joe, you should try to follow this if you can. There should be no hiring of preachers for this job.

By the way, I'm aware that most public high school students are currently out of school for the summer. So this is a long-term challenge, although there are now several public high schools that are year-round, and many many students attend them during the summer, having nothing to do with bad grades. I have a friend who's 15 and he's in all honors classes, and he's going to school now. So I predict that some Bible classes will start up before the end of summer.

With feedback from some of Pat Condell's beloved fans....maybe the Koran should be taught as well...

here are Pat's friends

http://www.patcondell.net/page4/page4.html

Now, hear me out, please. This is going to start out sounding strange.

I think Bible study classes are a great idea, given a proper venue. Why? Because most people who call themselves Christians have very little knowledge of what it is they believe in. They fulfil their moral obligation to God and family by dressing formal and sitting in a pew for an hour or two pretending to be interested in what some moron is talking about. Never examining whether what they hear makes sense or whether it is even possible.

Take the children of these pseudoChristian families, sit them in a classroom and subject them to a half period of religious mythology, then complete the period with an instructor who explains how these myths are impossible. If done from an Agnostic prospective rather than a purely Atheist dogma, it may just result in a classroom of free thinkers.

NeoWolfe

If the Bible is "literature," then all that is "literature" is brought down in value to humanity, in my humble opinion.

As an avid reader, writer, and a student of literature, I'm inclined to agree with that.

Besides, if anyone needs to learn about the Bible, there are churches for just that purpose. These Bible classes imply that there aren't any churches in Texas. Let's be realistic here.

Anyone can go to a Christian church in their neighborhood and learn all about the Bible, and even get a free Bible, probably.
Now couple that with the fact that those churches don't pay taxes, together with the fact that this situation apparently isn't enough for Christians' satisfaction. They want to control the public schools, and this is just one way. In Texas last year, four other religious laws were passed, including one that makes all "religious expression" in public schools allowable. The intent of these laws is clear, they want control over YOUR children and mine so every aspect of our lives has to be dependent on them and their bizarre death-focused religion.

In the future when Christianity is extinct, then it might be OK to study it as a piece of fiction, like Greek myths, demonstrating the brutal history of humanity. But as long as the motives of those pushing it are religious, it is completely unacceptable in my eyes.

So long as these bible calsses are elective I think tjhat its a great idea to teach kids about the bible. Once they become familiar with just how silly and violent it is they will start to ask questions. I totally support elective bible studies in public school but would like to see a comprehensive comparative religion course also taught just like in Europe. Knowledge is the key to understanding that all religion is just nonsense unworthy of respect.

Personally,
I wouldn't want the Bible or other similar scriptures anywhere near public schools. All they want is an opportunity to have the Bible viewed as equal to other historical or scientific literature. I have no doubt that atheists can win rational debates with Xtians; however IMO, winning a debate is not their ultimate goal. IMO, Xtians would love nothing more than an opportunity to defeat logic where it’s conceived; from the CLASSROOM directly into the minds of students, safely behind the walls our public schools system, by teaching their own faith based illogic and irrationale. The Xtian beast, as a movement, is still strong. If they get an inch, they'll take a mile. We should not under estimate their power by inviting them into a place where they currently have little voice or influence. I’m afraid that if we give them a voice, stage, and an audience they will create enough confusion to take advancements in science and reason back a few decades/centuries.

JMO

As usual, a lot of you just can't help yourselves... you spout off immediately and reveal your ignorance about Christianity! In particular, there seems to be no lack of willful ignorance concerning the Texas statute and how the Bible is taught in a public school setting.

First and foremost, this isn't about teaching for OR against the Bible from a spiritual perspective.

Second, anyone who doesn't acknowledge the value of the Bible from a literary as well as a historical perspective is certainly deficient in other areas of their personal development as well.

Third, people who find it necessary to hold up the Bible and by extension, Christians, for ridicule reveal more about their lack of character than they realize.

Fourth, to say that Christians somehow "control" or want to control public school curriculum is just absurd on its face. Am I the only one here who notices the glaring omission of what's being taught in public schools today with regards to Islam? My friends, it makes teaching the Bible from a literary standpoint look positively innocuous! GMAF'ng BREAK.

I'll start taking some of you more seriously when you start being truly serious about the very real peril our nation is in. It's not from Christianity and I challenge anyone to provide some REAL facts and analysis to back up some of the more silly claims being made here on a daily basis.

atheon,

Your post is a prime example. So what, exactly are you afraid of, hmmmm? Becoming a Christian is VOLUNTARY, ya dope!

Why don't you cite some examples of what the terrible beast of Christianity is responsible for in today's world?

Better yet, why don't you compare the acts of modern day Christians with those of Muslims, who seem to be stuck in the 7th century.

Since you are so worried about Christianity, please compare its tenets with those of Islam, particularly the provisions of Shariah law.

I'm waiting.

Some of you don't seem to be comfortable with the concept of "the marketplace of ideas" we have in these great United States of America.

All I seem to see posted here are ill-informed diatribes against the mere IDEA of introducing Christian principles in a public setting! Yet, when I call attention to things you folks want to promote that I disagree with all I get is grief.

There's two sides to every argument, my atheist friends. At least a recognition of this fact would be refreshing!

TEHRAN, Iran — Eight women and one man convicted of adultery are set to be stoned to death in Iran, activists said Sunday.

Lawyer and women's rights activist, Shadi Sadr, said the nine were convicted of adultery in separate cases in different Iranian cities.

This is the face if Sharia law. Sharia Law is being introduced in the United States by Muslims who are demanding that they be allowed to practice their own system of "justice" irrespective of our laws!

So where in modern Western jurisprudence, which was founded on Judeo-Christian principles would you find such barbaric practices, hmmmm?

Seems to have gotten quiet all of a sudden...

Tim,

First of all, I've never called anyone outside of their name. I'm not a dope, so I don't appreciate being called one.

My opinions are just that, "opinions". If you feel like they are irrational, make a rational response. I'm not above admitting being wrong, but the name calling unnecessary.

If you think I'm wrong, present your case for consideration...

Tim,

I really want to understand your aurgument, so clearly state the issues you have with my post and I will address them accordingly.

Thx

Tim,

You asked: Am I the only one here who notices the glaring omission of what's being taught in public schools today with regards to Islam?

I say: Perhaps you are! Islam is not being taught in any of my son's schools that I'm aware of...

If i'm wrong, I'm willing to investigate it and discuss if futher with you. I could resort to name calling if that doesn't work for you.

All,

I haven't gotten the hang of typing in this little box. Is there any instructions on this blog that describes how to reply to comments or capture someone elses comments within a post?

Any instruction will be appreciated.

atheon,

I was referring to various school districts around the United States.

It may come to your school eventually if you just lay back and ignore it!

atheon,

Mine was but a mild rebuke that was meant to illustrate the lack of clear thinking revealed by your remarks.

It was not hurled with any true malice if it makes you feel any better. Stick around and see the choice names I'm going to be called!

Comment from: DiArtemis

There should be no hiring of preachers for this job.

Why not? I thought the purpose of public schools was to educate...

Who else would be better at answering the very questions Joe told his troops to ask...?

Phreed:

What do you think the chances are that a preacher, when asked to teach a public school class about the bible, is going to teach it from a non-spiritual point of view? What does a preacher even have to offer to the course if you discount their spiritual POV?

And how many preachers out there do you suppose are certified to teach english in public schools?

Tim,

I'm will be the first to admit that I do not know everything. That being said, if there is a movement by Muslims to integrate Islams into the school systems, I WILL FIGHT IT.

I can't fight it if it doesn't exist. I will be waiting.

What do you think the chances are that a preacher, when asked to teach a public school class about the bible, is going to teach it from a non-spiritual point of view?

If they follow the curriculum and textbook and have the class monitored on ocassion Id say the chances are very good. Education is the only way to show just how nonsensical religion is.

Tim,
Just so you know, I've read all 66 Chapters of the Bible from start to finish and I hate it; perhaps not in all parts, but as a whole. IMO, legitimizing the philosophies taught in the Bible will hinder all men/women from reaching a common understanding about the natural world based on a rational interpretation of the rules and laws that govern our universe. Religion compromises the integrity of rational thought, so I believe that it has NO place in the public school system designed to teach reason. I take that back, may in the library under Mysticism.

Case and point:

How will a physics teach explain how Jesus bent/broke the laws of physics by walking on water? Will it be the Physics instructor’s responsibility to explain it or the Christian Professor? To have two opposing views by the teaching authority will hinder learning…good learning, and cause conflict or confusion among students.

Will Professors bring cadavers into the classroom to demonstrate how one can raise people from the dead? Maybe they can teach how to resurrect some long gone pets as well. Remember pet cemetery… or was it spelled Semitary? I can’t remember…

How will the chemistry teacher explain the instant transformation of water into wine? Jesus did it, so it MUST be possible!

Is there such a monster as a pregnant virgin? IF so, why should girls abstain from sex when they can get pregnant without ever having intercourse? That would suck… try teaching that to a 13 yr old girl...

Perhaps we should not be alarmed when our virgin daughters say they are pregnant..and they didn’t DO ANYTHING. We should assume there’s an (ir)rational explanation. God did it! And if God is involved, we must accept it… and not question it.
My point is that religion should NOT be taught in schools! That’s what the church is for…

Tim asked:
"Why don't you cite some examples of what the terrible beast of Christianity is responsible for in today's world?"

here's the biggest example:

George Bush stated that his "God" told him to evade Iraq. nuff said..

Tim said:

Becoming a Christian is VOLUNTARY, ya dope!

Not for the vast majority of Christians, it wasn't. Their parents were active Chistians. As babies, they started out without any concept of religion. Then they were taken to Sunday School. They were given fun activities that began the insertion of the ideas of one particular sect. For most who came to call themselves Christians, attendance while a child was basically compulsory.

The Jesuits have a motto, based on a quote purported to be from Francis Xavier, "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man." Brain washing works. Most of the free thinkers posting here still show the effects of their childhood religious training. I know it tugs at me still, things like the music and the social aspects.

Interesting, isn't it that churches that have confirmation classes do so around the age of 14, long before the age they are allowed to enter a contract.

I would think that most people that consider themselves to have become a Christian in their adulthood were raised and living in a society where most of their peers were Christian.

So before you go calling people unintelligent, perhaps you should think more carefully, yourself. Your much practised ability to compartmentalize your thoughts is actually sloppy thinking and it shows.

Tim said:

Why don't you cite some examples of what the terrible beast of Christianity is responsible for in today's world?

You should know better than to ask:

* Exorcisms that result in death or permanent damage to the victim.

* Christian sects that deny the benefits of modern medicine to their sick and/or dying children.

* Polygamists that deny their children an education.

* Polygamists that 'marry' very young girls.

* Priests that sexually abuse children.

* Archbishops that protect the name of the church by moving abusive priests to new parishes and new victims.

* Bringing an incompetent President to power in the US. Katrina, Iraq, etc.

* Blocking access to contraception and protection from STDs in America and Africa.

* Inspiring and abetting the persecution of child 'witches' in HIV ravaged Africa.

I'll stop now. Cue the No True Christian_(tm) argument.

And no, mentioning Hitler and Stalin isn't a point against atheism. Hitler was a Catholic and Stalin did it out of a lust for power, not because he was inspired by atheism.

Comment from Tim:

Better yet, why don't you compare the acts of modern day Christians with those of Muslims, who seem to be stuck in the 7th century.

That is because they believe their text is divinely inspired text. As such, it is true and correct. The xtians simply take the parts they want. If you were to follow the bible as in inerrant text, you would be just as bad.
Take this for example:
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I [Jesus] should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (Luke 19-27)

Awww, poor wittle Timmy, he dosen't want to koowaan taught in public school. But the bible is a-okay!!!

That's "the koowaan"

I think Joe will agree with me but it's likely to happen. The reason? Times are changing. Last year my local school district had a vote to allow students to have a prayer at graduation. It happened and after being announced the superintendent was told it was Unconstitutional and don't let it happen again. This year Joe and I both randomly attended a Round Rock school graduation and the valedictorian used some very note-worthy speech that called on reason as a means to solving problems, not once did she ask for a god to intervene. Good work Joe.

It is vitally important that religion be taught in schools. One can't understand our culture without a basic knowledge of the Bible.
It has to be taught in a Religious Studies class which should cover everything from the Adventists to Zoroaster, including the lunacy of the Bible and the Koran.
Young people ought to have heard the names of ALL the gods including those who were once as important to believers as Yaweh: Vesta, Baal, Melek, Ninib, Ptah, Vaticanus, Dagan, Cerus, Jupiter, Osiris, Cronos, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

My high school offered a mythology class. I don't think the abrahamic religions were included. They should have been.

Obeah - So what part of American culture is discussed in the Bible? I fail to see any connection between what's in the Bible and what's in America today. Other than the Bible itself.

I think a history of how the Bible has been used and abused is important, to a world history class. But the contents of that book are best left to comparative religions classes or mythology classes, or critical thinking classes.

To teach the contents of the Bible as history is to lie.

Come on now, Joe. The history of the West, for better or worse, is tied up with the bible and xianity. You cant undertsand Western Civilisation without it. Teach xianity and all major world religions in public schools so that kids have the information to ask questions and think critically about religion and its impact in the world. No one is advocating prostelisation just factual information on what different religious traditions teach. I studied Greek mythology in high school and came out of it without a literal belief in Zeus!

Alex!! We actually agree on something? Maybe there is a god after all:)

Joe,
I share your obvious disgust of religion, but one's comprehension of English Literature, and History (not to mention Art History) would be impaired by an ignorance of Biblical themes and characters. Not knowing the references to Job, Solomon, Paul, Daniel, the Good Samaritan, the Tower of Babel, Sodom, "my brother's keeper", "Salvation", and "the Garden", etc. would lead to a culture of nit-wits.

I think a history of how the Bible has been used and abused is important, to a world history class. But the contents of that book are best left to comparative religions classes or mythology classes, or critical thinking classes.

That's kinda what I said, Religious Studies Classes.

To teach the contents of the Bible as history is to lie.

I agree. If you thought I was advocating for the Bible as History, you were mistaken.

And, the earlier a child is exposed to the idea of religious practice throughout the world, the earlier they begin to question; they become critical thinkers.

Joe

I like your idea and you have addressed the concerns of others here in a respectful manner. I have nothing more to add besides saying thank you and please keep me/us up-to-date on your progress by posting on this blog.

Thank you.

Atheon:

I haven't gotten the hang of typing in this little box. Is there any instructions on this blog that describes how to reply to comments or capture someone elses comments within a post?

Those tags underneath the posting window are the code you enter to adjust the style of your writing. The one for marking a quotation is "blockquote".

The tag has to be inclozed in angle brackets. Those are like parentheses except they're straight lines instead of curves. On most keyboards, they're the uppercase characters on "comma" & "period" keys.

The tag has to be repeated at the end of the string, with "/" inserted in front of the word, just after the beginning angle bracket.

If you google HTML, you'll get lots of hits including a very clear & comprehensive Wikipedia article and some tutorials.

I don't know of any way to reply to a specific post or to capture a quotation, except by copying & pasting.

Comment from: justme

Take this for example:
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I [Jesus] should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (Luke 19-27)

You've got to be kidding me...

Do you have a clue as to what you're discussing?

DD Dropout,

I beg to differ. I actually was raised a Catholic, was an altar boy, went to Catechism class, got confirmed, etc. etc. and STILL wasn't a Christian! Of course, I didn't know this until I was well into my high school years.

My point? While it's true that people who are raised in religious households tend to be "religious" and recite everything they've learned, it doesn't mean that they have accepted salvation as promised by God in the new testament. It doesn't mean they have become believers in Jesus, which is a voluntary act, a decision you have to make.

Conversely, look at the example of Paul in the Bible. He was one of the most virulent persecuters of Christians before God took away his sight on the road that fateful day. There are many other examples as well.

All I'm asking is that you and others here refrain from judging Christianity by using religion as a yardstick! The Bible has a lot to say about the religious as well and it's not a ringing endorsement. In fact, religion being the creation of man is condemned in the Bible.

So make sure you understand the terms you use in the debate:

RELIGION = Man's attempt to reach God
CHRISTIANITY = God reaches Man; man accepts

DD Dropout,

To your second post.

None of the examples you cited are examples of what Christianity is responsible for.

I'm not going over them point by point, but I think it would serve you better to really do more research on what Christianity really is and all the things that flow from it.

Of course, Christians are Humans just like you. We aren't perfect and we make mistakes. You wouldn't want me to judge Atheism by what certain individuals who happen to be Atheists do, would you?

I have detected a common thread here concerning "critical thinking." It seems that some of you think that critical thinking is not compatible with Christianity, or if you will - religion. Not so.

I'm not sure why some of you think ctitical thinking leads to discounting the possibility of the existence of God. Just the opposite is true. The more you come to understand things, the more you come to question the conventional thinking concerning the origins of man, as just one example.

Perhaps some of you are confused about what critical thinking skills are in the first place. Care to enlighten me?

Atheon,

"Is there such a monster as a pregnant virgin?"

Careful there, buddy.

If these bible classes are so "innocuous" then why is it that all the fundamentalists are so adamantly for them? Perhaps because they want to use the resources of the state and the coercive power of compulsory education to spread their religion. Putting a preacher in charge of such a class would amount to forced brainwashing by the state. At some point, even literary bible classes would be escalated to the point of having preachers involved. People on both sides of the issue know that.

As far as the conspiracy theories about Islam being preached in public schools, I have to ask which right-wing, no-references-provided, rumor-has-it, create-moral-panic radio host did you hear that from? Or was it another shadowy chain email campaign? All snopes.com mentions about this urban legend is that in the context of a world history class, Islam was described alongside other religions (yes, including Christianity) as an influence on history. That they certainly were! Should history majors in college be forced to ignore Islam?

Children SHOULD learn about religion in the context of history. Then they'd learn about how many people died in wars, over and over again throughout the ages in in all regions of the world, fought over who had the better imaginary friend or how to worship that imaginary friend. How many humans died over the allowability of icons, the infallibility of the pope, or to seize some "holy land" for their god? If they could see how the innocent-sounding tenets of ANY religion have eventually and inevitably lead people to commit horrible acts, they would be much better educated.

Whether or not they understand Shakespeare's metaphors is far less important than being aware of what happens when occult thoughts take control of cultures. Hundreds of thousands of people die. Some dictator who "speaks for God" takes control. That's what happens.

Tiny Tim-MAY

"Is there such a monster as a pregnant virgin?"

Careful there, buddy.

Careful? With what? Degrading one of your favorite myths? Suck it pregnant monster virgins!

pregnant monster virgins -> pregnant virgin monsters

Tiny

Perhaps some of you are confused about what critical thinking skills are in the first place. Care to enlighten me?

Build models and then test them for predictive power. Simple enough pinhead?

Tiny

Perhaps some of you are confused about what critical thinking skills are in the first place. Care to enlighten me?

Build models and then test them for predictive power. Throw out the ones without predictive power. Simple enough pinhead?

Chris B,

The beginning of your post changed ever so slightly yields thus:

"If these Koran classes are so "innocuous" then why is it that all the Islamists are so adamantly for them? Perhaps because they want to use the resources of the state and the coercive power of compulsory education to spread their religion."

I'm surprised you would ask about sources for information that's all over the place. Where do you get your information?

Can you Google?

Chris B,

I had to laugh just a little when you mentioned Snopes.com simply because I use it all the time.

There's only one problem. The reason Snopes is silent concerning Islam being taught in schools is due to the fact that it really is! To varying degrees, of course, but I dare say that if Christians attempted what these Islamists are getting away with, they would be hauled into court by the ACLU in a heartbeat.

Don't you see the hypocrisy? Please don't engage in it yourself.

Chris B,

O.K., here's just one example I excerpted for you:

"Requiring seventh-grade students to pretend they're Muslims, wear Islamic garb, memorize verses from the Quran, pray to Allah and even to play "jihad games" in California public schools has been legally upheld by a federal judge, who has dismissed a highly publicized lawsuit brought by several Christian students and their parents.

As WND reported in July of last year, the suit was filed by the Thomas More Law Center against the Byron Union School District and various school officials to stop the use of the "Islam simulation" materials and methods used in the Excelsior Elementary School in Byron, Calif.

In her 22-page ruling announced Wednesday, U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton said Excelsior is not indoctrinating students about Islam when it requires them to adopt Muslim names and pray to Allah as part of a history and geography class, but rather is just teaching them about the Muslim religion. "


WND is WorldNetDaily and the date on the article is December 13, 2003.

I'm not sure why some of you think [critical] thinking leads to discounting the possibility of the existence of God.

Well of course you don't understand. If you looked at all the religious explanations with a critical eye you would be an atheist.
Critical thinking involves the use of reason and logic.
The religious community abhors reason.
You believe in supernatural beings and occurrences.
Reason is your enemy.

Chris B,

WND not good enough? How about this from USA Today:

"Some public schools and universities are granting Muslim requests for prayer times, prayer rooms and ritual foot baths, prompting a debate on whether Islam is being given preferential treatment over other religions.
The University of Michigan at Dearborn is planning to build foot baths for Muslim students who wash their feet before prayer. An elementary school in San Diego created an extra recess period for Muslim pupils to pray.

At George Mason University in Fairfax, Va., Muslim students using a "meditation space" laid out Muslim prayer rugs and separated men and women in accordance with their Islamic beliefs.

Critics see a double standard and an organized attempt to push public conformance with Islamic law..."

by Oren Dorell, USA Today 7/25/2007

Chris B,

What I've shared so far is merely the TIP of the iceberg! The stuff the Islamists have gotten into elementary school textbooks and class materials is nothing short of blatant indoctrination, Soviet style.

It is absolutely horrendous, but NO! You folks are worried about Bible as literature classes!

I see society standing on a slippery slope, desparately trying to keep it's footing. They don't know how to treat muslims, because they know they are not all terrorists, and must avoid litigation involving religious persecustion or racial profiling.
I may be wrong, or arrogant, but it seems to me, again, that most of you are missing the broader picture.

When modern man acquired the inteligence to ask the question, "why", it seems the first question he asked is "why am I here", and of course immediately stepped in those who would, for a substantial fee, share their supernatual understanding of who the creator is and what he expects of us and what the future holds, but, above all, redemption from all your mistakes and unending life in a world where pain and suffering don't exist.

As a species we are INFECTED by a psychological symbiote that treats our nagging survival instinct, our fear of death. We have the same fakers and holy men with us that our ancestors had when they followed the herds of mastadons and bison accross the continents. They will continue to tell us that storms, desease, and droughts occur because we displeased the creator.

I have known very educated and inteligent people who still buy in to this crap, but I think it is not their fault. There is just that one black room in their mind where they are incapable of opening the door and looking inside, the room where their life ends forever. So they spend their studies searching for reasons to believe rather than searching their beliefs to determine if they have merit.
But, the important point is we, as a species are infected, and debating how we might curtail a small portion of the brainwash by banning it from school is like bringing down gas prices by buying a Prius. Surfboard in a hurricane. Why not use it as a force for good by giving equal time to the Bible and science. Moses's god, the supposed creator of the earth, never knew about the dinosaurs, he didn't know the earth revolved around the sun, and the moon around the earth. He didn't know that stripe of stars across the sky was our view of our galaxy, of which there a billions. I have no fear of debate, but, many of the posts above smell of fear. Truth is the second most powerful weapon behind brainwash, and I would love to see the issue brought headon to forum, the younger the better.

NeoWolfe

O.K., please provide an exact definition of a "psychological symbiote."

Secondly, if we are somehow "infected" by this thing you claim exists, then explain the mechanism by which the infection occurs.

If you want me (and presumably others) to follow your line of reasoning, then there has to be some basis for it.

Right now, it just reads like something from a transhumanist blog.

NotSoFast,

Thanks for the information! I will test it out in an older thread so I want litter any active threads.

Thanks again!

Tim,

You said:It is absolutely horrendous, but NO! You folks are worried about Bible as literature classes!

I say: We are not worried about the Bible ONLY. We are worried about ANY mythological text infiltrating the school system posing as a legitimate authority for science, history, social or moral law.

Tim,

You said:

So make sure you understand the terms you use in the debate:

RELIGION = Man's attempt to reach God
CHRISTIANITY = God reaches Man; man accepts

I'm confused... Where did you get your definitions? The Bible?

Webster's defines religion and Christianity as follows:

Christianity:
1 : the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies
2 : conformity to the Christian religion
3 : the practice of Christianity

Religion:
1 a: the state of a religious b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

When should we apply your definition as opposed to Websters?

Establishing a common language is CRITICAL to communication. Establishing a common meaning for words used in a language is as equally important.

Please advise...

Let's also remember that public schools, especially here in Texas already had a host of state/church violations going for them, in the form of religion intruding.

Last year's Texas "Religious Expression" LAW opens the floodgates of religious abuse of all kinds. I predict more "Self-Induced Religious Fits."

Of course there's also the Pledge of Allegiance which is essentially a prayer, and the moment of silence which is essentially a prayer. My old public high school, Katy High School still has prayers over the intercom, every single class day. They used to call it "solemnization." Now they don't bother mentioning that catch-phrase they invented in order to shove that prayer into the public school system there. They just close their eyes and broadcast the prayer.
The list goes on...

Tim,
I and virtually all atheists I've spoken to would be equally opposed to using public schools to sell ANY religion. Whether it's Methodist Christian, Sunni Muslim, Mormon, or Scientology doesn't matter - it's an obvious attempt to use the coercive power of the state to recruit kids for that religion. It would be equally wrong to indoctrinate kids according to some state-mandated ideology, as in the Nazi Youth. Just teach the facts, and keep the salespeople, crackpots, and cult recruiters out.

If you really believe that there is a movement afoot by US Muslims (0.5% of the population) to take over schools in a country that is overwhelmingly Christian (76+% of the population) then you've probably been getting your info from chain emails, AM radio, and tabloids such as WorldNetDaily. People who believe such things regularly mention these as their sources. How exactly did they persuade you that this was likely to occur? Furthermore, how would this distraction tactic ever support the argument that your religion should be forced upon other people's children in schools? It seems far more likely to me that Christians (76%), not Muslims (0.5%), are the ones trying to force schools to preach their religion to other people's kids.

That said, if a kid graduates from high school and does not know what Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddists believe, then we have failed to educate them. They should also know what the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, etc. believed. Those are political and historical facts that should be taught in political science and history classes. This is far different from a class, taught , or should I say preached, by an adherent to a religion, about only that religion.

I suspect that adherents to all religions would love to establish such indoctrination classes for other people's children, but this particular conspiracy theory about Muslims (0.5%) is just not plausible. It doesn't pass the critical thinking test. It does however motivate people who have accepted extremist ideology and isolated their information sources to a few extremist sources. I wonder how it feels to make this stuff up, knowing that millions of people will instantly believe it.

Chris B,

Well, I tried. You obviously have a reading and/or comprehension problem. The fact that I pointed you to other sources seems totally lost on you.

What don't you start at the genesis of the recent influx of Islamic teachings. Namely Bill Clinton's federal education guidelines he so carefully negotiated with known Islamic terrorist sympathizers posing as scholars. It's all there in the federal records, but then again if you don't keep your mind open I'm just wasting my precious time.

Finally, if you and other Atheists really believe what you say, why do I never see anything but anti-Christian rantings posted here?

atheon,

Sorry, but Websters has it only half right. Yes, my source is the Bible.

The scriptures reveal a clear distinction between man-made attempts to attain salvation versus God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ.

The moniker attached to the former is called religion and the latter, Christianity. The two couldn't be more fundamentally different despite the fact that adherents share similar worship practices, etc..

Chris B,

One last thing you may want to keep in the back of that crowded little mind of yours - If Christians were to "take over" what's the worst that could happen?

Conversely, who do you think will get their heads chopped off first if the Islamists had their way, hmmmm? Atheists my friend.

Joe,

"Of course there's also the Pledge of Allegiance which is essentially a prayer..."

Oh, now that is RICH! The level of sillines displayed here as evidenced by your post just keeps me in awe.

I guess you'll be happy with Obama then.

atheon,

"I say: We are not worried about the Bible ONLY. We are worried about ANY mythological text infiltrating the school system posing as a legitimate authority for science, history, social or moral law."

Well then, you'd better be damned worried about what's going on in our public schools today with respect to the teaching of Islam!

You can start by researching the texts that have been adopted and some of the outrageous lesson plans kids are being subjected to.

Wow, Tim, you're posting as much here as any other apologist I've ever seen on a thread. More even than Phreedm.

I wonder if you are struggling so hard as a way to fight your doubts. You do have doubts.

Reading your responses carefully I think I am detecting that you are using a specialized vocabulary, centring on your particular sect when you make your arguments.

If I am right, then by your definition the only True Chistian is a born-again Christian, as recognized by your sect. Obviously then, they volunteer. I observe that the majority of people calling themselves Christians do not agree with this born-again criteria.

I now suspect that this hidden bit of chicanery is how you Teflon coated yourself against that list of evil done in the name of Christianity. Several of my examples could never have happened except that the Bible inspired extreme behaviour based on literal interpretations.

Mormons and JWs aren't True Christians in your books and so of course their behaviour doesn't reflect on your sect.

Exorcism is favoured in several born-again sects. You wouldn't know about that would you?

One thing about critical thinking, it does not suppose the existence of the subject in order to prove its existence.

Your arguments do.

DD Dropout ,

Perhaps you should have stayed in school...

Seriously, though, the only doubts I have revolve around whether or not I should have made different investments in my 401k or perhaps had one less glass of wine last weekend.

It should be somewhat obvious to critical thinkers here (even Atheists) that the term Christian is derived from the name of ... Jesus Christ. Well, duh.

Therefor, by definition Christians would have to be followers of Christ. Now here comes the hard part. What does it mean to actually BE a Christian?

The answer of course does not come from man, but rather from God. Where can we go to find the answers to such questions - the Bible.

Of course, it's still up to you whether to believe the promise of salvation... or not.

Like I said earlier, I was raised a Catholic and did everything the church taught me, but was actually no closer to salvation than the day I came into this world.

I'm sure Catholics will tell you they are Christians, but that isn't necessarily so. It depends upon each individual's choice. I don't presume to know.

Joe, thanks for the info. I'm not in HS anymore but if there's anything i can do to help from San Antonio, let me know.

Phreedm, if you want any of us to take anything you say seriously you're gonna have to back it up with some kind of evidence... don't you pay attention?

Tim,
In an earlier post, you gave the following advice to DD Dropout:

“So make sure you understand the terms you use in the debate”

You proceeded to recommend that DD Dropout use the following definitions for Christianity and Religion in his debate with you. (Biblical definitions at that…)

RELIGION = Man's attempt to reach God
CHRISTIANITY = God reaches Man; man accepts

Your choice of words, IMO, suggested that you felt that DD Dropout had somehow misused the words “Christianity” and “Religion”. I don’t