NoGodBlog.com

bloodless victory

Hardly Dave...

Who's taking the place of "'Teen Challenge"?

You? Barry in his ivory tower?

Just like education, you don't care who you hurt to enforce the myth...

Tell me Dave...exactly how much money does AA give away to attempt to fix the "ills" of our society?

Truth is...it's zero.

If you're not part of the solution...you're part of the problem...

phreddy:

The cats out of the bag now," If you're not part of the solution...you're part of the problem..." Only a narrow minded moron thinks in such absolutes... you're obviously President Bush.

Definitely a big victory for the unfortunately uber-christian state I call home (Kentucky). I knew the Creationism Museum is pretty much in my back door (about 8 miles away) but I didn't know we had this Evangelical program supported by OUR tax dollars. So great job AA and Americans United for Separation of Church and State for fighting and winning on this unconditional force-fed evangelical religious program. I am just glad my tax dollars aren't going into this anymore.

I hear about Americans United and the FFRF doing good things like this all the time. American Atheists? Not so much.

Program participants must sign a “Civil Rights Waiver” in which each surrenders the right to “exercis[e] the religion of my choice.”

can't sign away your civil rights.

there’s no evidence its approach even works

se people don't care if it works. "Working" is not the issue for them. It's about trying to convert them. That's all.

“Apparently their policy is to do it until they get caught.”

Case closed.

Who's taking the place of "'Teen Challenge"?

Oh, that's easy. Narconon, which has a very effective program aimed at drug users.

Very effective in duping people into joining Scientology, that is. They likewise, conspire to get public money to fund their proselytizing. Theirs is a more covert approach though, where they hide their association with the programs they sell to school boards, prisons, et cetera.

There's no reason a Christian should object to Scientology doing the same work, with about the same results, is there?

I still suspect our resident troll of being a parody carried out by an atheist. No theist would ever say the things he does, making the religious look so bad.

this sock puppet thing disturbs me....I am going to wish it were not so all day....

if this is true dave....I will still read the blog because of the great read I find from posters like Karen

suck it non taxed churches

Comment from: I'M Not A Bear!

Only a narrow minded moron thinks in such absolutes...

INAB...I'm glad to see that you object to making absolute statements...

Tough to be an atheist though WITHOUT thinking in such narrow minded absolutes...

Lynn noted that while Teen Challenge and other fundamentalist “faith-based” groups often claim high rates of success, no empirical data backs up the claim.

Would it matter if only one person was rescued from addiction? Two?

How about personal testimonies...

Don Fletcher was a long shot for a success story. A cocaine addict for 26 years, 49-year-old Fletcher had stooped to forging his father’s checks and stealing money from friends to buy drugs. Although he was well-paid as a supervisor at the Valdosta (Ga.) Times, he couldn’t pay his bills because of his addiction.

“It’s not the first rehab I went to,” Fletcher said. “It’s the one that worked.”

Fletcher credits God and TCM for helping him kick his drug addiction. He graduated from the program May 8 of this year, and now works as an intern at the new Weatherford chapter of TCM.

Vincent, a 2004 graduate of the TCM program, is now certified to help the men in the center to deal with issues such as sexual abuse or anger. He also leads 14 group studies for the students, with lessons such as dating, growing through failure, or civil obediance. TCM will also help a student with no high school degree earn his GED.

When they aren’t in one of their classes, TCM students often join work shifts at Marco, a cabinetry and furniture company. Students also make and sell crafts, which go toward the self-sustaining organization.

Grisham was addicted to heroin, and said he used the drug to cover up deeper secrets in his personal life. He went through five different 30-day programs, and was kicked out of two more. He ran away from TCM after he first enrolled, but returned a week later. He said the program not only cleaned him of his heroin addiction, but helped him deal with the other problems in his life as well. One of the greatest gifts TCM gave, he said, was his family.

“When I drive up, they don’t say, ‘Oh, what does he want now?’” Grisham said. “Now when I come, they have smiles on their faces.”

Clint Combs, a TCM graduate and the intake director for the Weatherford center, said the answer is simple: the program works. Combs was addicted to methamphetamine for seven years, and can attest to the success of the TCM program. He said even avowed athiests who went through the course with him saw life-changing results.

http://www.weatherforddemocrat.com/local/local_story_208111125.html

Come now...surely AA or Barry have an equally successful program....
Can ANYONE point to ONE program sponsored by AA...?

Truth is they take taxpayer money also...they just use the courts to steal it...

Teen Challenge, Americans United pointed out, requires participants to take part in prayer, worship, Bible study and other religious activities. Program participants must sign a “Civil Rights Waiver” in which each surrenders the right to “exercis[e] the religion of my choice.”

Applicants for the program are required to describe their Christian faith and agree to conduct themselves in a “Christ-like manner.” The organization vows to offer “deliverance from addiction through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and practical application of Biblical principles.”

If this is true, then this program is in clear violation of the First Amendment. Even if it is not technically possible to "sign away" one's civil rights, those entering the program are being coerced to forego whatever religious or non-religious beliefs they hold and openly subscribe only to Christianity to be allowed to participate. It seems then they go through an indoctrination process (required prayer, worship, Bible study, religious activities, and conducting oneself in a "Christ-like manner", during which they simply trade one addiction for another.

Congratulations to AU for exposing and challenging the taxpayer support of this program and initiating an end to it. I would like to see AA involved in this kind of activity. And I would like to see AA support secular programs to end addiction. There are some out there. When you beat an addiction through behavior modification and self-reliance and better self esteem, you have a better chance against relapse, IMO, than if you rely on imaginary friends.

Dear phreedm,

You wrote:

Who's taking the place of "'Teen Challenge"?

My response:

You make it sound like there's some shortage of treatment programs, as if the teens of Kentucky are doomed to lives of addiction and despair if it weren't for Teen Challenge.

But even if it were the only program, how exactly is it the responsibility of American Atheists and Americans United to find a replacement?

Tell me Dave...exactly how much money does AA give away to attempt to fix the "ills" of our society?

Again, why is it the responsibility of American Atheists to fix all of society's problems?

But it does, in fact, combat at least one major problem in the world: religion. By opposing faith, dogma, and supernaturalism in favor of reason, compassion, and open inquiry, it has done more to improve people's lives than a billion prayers to a thousand gods has ever done.

Just like education, you don't care who you hurt to enforce the myth...

A Christian accusing someone of hurting others to promote a myth?

You have a true gift for irony, sir.

Good work AU.


KA

Did you see this from Phreeky:

Would it matter if only one person was rescued from addiction? Two?

So stupid it IS funny. Do think that maybe JCC could now give Phreeky a lecture on double blind studies and placebos?

Yet another consequence of the rethuglican war against the islamobogeyman:

http://tinyurl.com/0

What:

Do think that maybe JCC could now give Phreeky a lecture on double blind studies and placebos?

Or maybe they could collaborate on a kid's book: 'The little addicts that COULD.'
The world abounds w/stories of breaking addictions using some external means, not all of them are religious.
I used Tai Chi to kick a serious meta-amphetamine addiction myself. By myself, I might add.

I don't see why such organizations need public funding. They have GAWD, don't they?

Seems as if--him being all powerful and everything--that he could help them out with the bucks they need. Jesus could turn water to wine, and feed the multitudes with a couple of fish or something. It's been a good while since I had that crap pushed down my throat but it was something like that I think.

So what's the deal? Has the magic gone and fizzled?

Comment from: castletonsnob
Dear phreedm,

But even if it were the only program, how exactly is it the responsibility of American Atheists and Americans United to find a replacement?

Fair question...

First let me commend you on posting a thoughtful, coherent response...

What I get tired of in all walks of life are those who attack those organizations that are trying to make a difference in the world...

It's so easy to take the road of being a critic in life...

It's much more difficult to try and actually make a change...

How many times to I hear complaints about education in the country? Even though it's a known fact it's the left that controls it, AA consistently voices opposition to any plan using taxpayer dollars that might rescue kids from failing public schools...

Why? Simple. They are nothing more then a wing of the DNC...

Here's a prediction...

AA or the ACLU won't complain about the current events taking place in Denver...

Democrats open faith-filled convention with prayer

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080825/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_democrats_faith

We all know some taxpayer money has been used for the convention...

But hey...they'll turn a blind eye as long as the Dems give them another "intellectually superior" supreme court justice like Ruth Bader Ginsburg...

But it does, in fact, combat at least one major problem in the world: religion. By opposing faith, dogma, and supernaturalism in favor of reason, compassion, and open inquiry, it has done more to improve people's lives than a billion prayers to a thousand gods has ever done.

Do you have proof of this statement?

And yes...a myth. Nothing more then a fund raiser at the expense of the taxpayer...

And in the famous case of @ 43 U. S. 198, this Court, while sustaining the will of Mr. Girard, with its provision for the creation of a college into which no minister should be permitted to enter, observed: "It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law of Pennsylvania."

If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life, as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs, and its society, we find every where a clear recognition of the same truth. Among other matters, note the following: the form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an appeal to the Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and most conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all wills, "In the name of God, amen;" the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches and church organizations which abound in every city, town, and hamlet; the multitude of charitable organizations existing every where under Christian auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe. These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.

http://supreme.justia.com/us/143/457/case.html

Phreeky wants us to think that the corporatist rethuglican party is an agent for change. Maybe they are. Just not the kind of change anybody that has been paying attention wants. What a dolt!

AA or the ACLU won't complain about the current events taking place in Denver
Democrats open faith-filled convention with prayer...

Wrong as usual.

Why do people always find god after they do something wrong? It would almost seem as if god needed people to mess up. Or maybe a good, pious christian can explain why jesus doesn't think that "a ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure", to borrow a cliché?

Why do people always find god after they do something wrong?

Ha, that's easy. That way they don't have to take responsibility for their actions. My invisible friend understands and forgives me, so it's all good. Hahahahaha.

Did Teen Challenge actually call it a "Civil Rights Waiver"? I mean, really? Or did AU use that name to describe what it really is.

They wouldn't actually, blatantly, ask people to sign something called a "Civil Rights Waiver", would they? They'd at least try to conceal the fact, right? We can't possibly be in such a sorry state that people now feel totally comfortable asking people to openly give up their civil rights.

I'd have to do a LOT of drugs (and I don't do any) before I signed a "Civil Rights Waiver". Guess that's how it works, huh?

I used Tai Chi to kick a serious meta-amphetamine addiction myself. By myself, I might add.

Ain’t it amazing what can be accomplished when the immaterial will is determined to overcome the material that it had previously conditioned?

mdetrano

Yes they do. Google “Civil Rights Waiver” (use the quotes) and you will see a pdf file of that "waiver".

I need a big comeback here after trashing karen for saying something JCC said.
Wish me luck.
The Bush administration was the big champion of the "faith based initiative" which would basically entitle all religious charitable organization to the same federal funding as secular charities. What is totally absent is any checks and balances on how the money is spent. What the practices they use to administer benefits to recipients, nor any rules on hiring members of their church to man the operation.
Not long ago a member initiated a thread regarding the use of crosses for marking the sites of fallen law enforcement personell. I thought maybe we should reconsider, and pick and choose our battlegrounds where we can win hearts and minds, and not offend the public at large. I got trashed, and everybody who responded to my post felt like we as free thinkers must dig in at every point that religion attempts to make inroads. Maybe they are right, and I am wrong.
But, of this I am firmly convinced: This faith based initiative is definitely a line where we need to draw the line and stand until the last appeal is exhausted. I know that Obama is just pandering to the right when he hints that under certain circumstances and federal rules he can conceive of a modified faith based initiative. But, this is the federal government, which already grants taxfree status to these perpetraters of mass consumer faud, federal money, our money to supplement their interests and political clout.
Now, to address JCC. You say you used Thai Chi to rise above your meth addiction. Good for you, that stuff is bad luck in crystal form. But your fundamentalist friends will crucify you if they discover you have been practicing pagan rituals.
I went to NA, they told me to admit I was powerless. I said "no I'm not, and if I were I would also be hopeless, and I am not ready to admit that." They said to throw my burden on the higher power. I said, "Why the hell would I want to replace one mental crutch with another?" They said to take one day at a time, and I said, "Screw that, I'm done being the slave of something that doesn't even have a brain." So I quit because I loved my family. That simple. No ooga booga required.

NeoWolfe

The Bush administration was the big champion of the "faith based initiative"

Ah...no. It was Bill Clinton...

But, of this I am firmly convinced: This faith based initiative is definitely a line where we need to draw the line and stand until the last appeal is exhausted.

So exactly where were you or AA or the ACLU when Clinton signed the "Charitable Choice" into law...?

Or when Gore promised to expand "faith based initiatives" if elected president...?

You're proving my point...

My dear neowolfe,
You have not been cured of footinmouth disease.
You have the wrong person again.
You are not reading the larger name.

Um....Neo, hon, I hate to break it to you, but it wasn't jcc who used Tai Chi to break his addiction, it was KA.(Krystalline Apostate)

Maybe you should keep a little notepad with you beside the computer to mark down who said what?

Congrats on breaking free of your addiction and for refusing to say you were powerless. Good for you! If you ever do need a higher power, you can always throw your burden on the cube. For verily, it is a higher power than the square.

The thread about the crosses honoring the fallen law officers is an old issue, actually. I don't remember why it was brought up again; new ruling on the matter? Anyway, the thing is, the crosses are like 10 or 12 feet tall and along the side of a public road. The dead guys (I assume) have their own proper headstones on their graves where they are buried. But the people pushing the crosses want the places where the men died in the line of duty to be marked also. Well, can we erect 10 foot crosses in the middle of a city block? Inside a bank? As I think someone said, in front of someone's house if a firefighter died there? It's just nonsense. And I think you said something about cemeteries, maybe even Arlington, because of all the crosses. We're not disputing that. It's the religious display on public property or property maintained by taxpayer funding. See?

I agree that the faith-based initiatives constitute a battle that we must fight. I hope Obama is as much a panderer for votes as he seems and not a true believer. The turning of the DNC into a prayer fest with the deliberate snubbing of non-believers has sickened me. Once Obama achieves the office, maybe the religiosity will quiet down and he will employ reason. Maybe.

Comment from: karen

I hope Obama is as much a panderer for votes as he seems and not a true believer.

So let me get this straight...let's hope Obama is lying now, so we can trust him later...?

The turning of the DNC into a prayer fest with the deliberate snubbing of non-believers has sickened me.

So why isn't there the same outrage as the original thread? Over 13 million taxpayer dollars have been spent on the Democratic National Convention...

And yet, not a whisper from the ACLU, AA, Barry or Dave...

So why does everyone on this board with such high morals support the party who constantly lies to them, constantly forgets them, and constantly throws them under the bus...?

phreedm
everyone on this board does not support the democrats.why do you want to hand out money to every tom dick an harry who claims to believe in jesus.how do you know they really believe it could be just a scam besides where in the constitution does it give the federal gov't the right to take our money and spend it on folks who broke our drug laws.

shame on those bums who went to china and acted up the gov't should have punish them hard.free tibet why so it can return to being a feudal toilet run by pervert monks.

My dear neowolfe,
You have not been cured of footinmouth disease.
You have the wrong person again.
You are not reading the larger name.

neowolfe:

your fundamentalist friends will crucify you if they discover you have been practicing pagan rituals.

As karen pointed out, it wasn’t me who was hooked on meth, but more importantly, why would you assert my “fundamentalist friends” would “crucify” me if I was? Do you honestly believe that, or are you making an extrapolation based on how you suppose Christians would treat a fellow believer with such a problem?

Um, Why is my post in twice? 20:16 and 21:39
I'm going to look up the possible gospel references.

JCC

I think NeoWolfe was referring to Tai Chi as the Pagan religion. Yeh, I know.

Okay, let's lighten up on NeoWolfe. There probably isn't anybody on this blog who hasn't slipped up once in a while, and most of us have been stomped on a time or two. I say we move on.

And once again, I'm calling for a ban on reading phreedm's posts or replying to them. (I know, I know. I say this and then once in a while I answer him myself. But I heard about PA, a 12-step program, and I've been attending faithfully and getting better and stronger.)

Crap!!! I can't win. Maybe I should address my comments To Whom it May Concern, and then say something totally unrelated to the thread. Then maybe I can stay out of trouble. But, probably not.

NeoWolfe

GodFree

I didn't think I was being hard on Neowolfe. I tried to gently point out his error, then I went on to discuss with him the rest of the issues he addressed.

Neo- The notepad idea was only partly facetious. Unless I'm talking to someone I'm very familiar with, I often have to scroll back up into the thread to find the name of the person I'm addressing, and sometimes copy and paste it, especially if it's a long one or an unusual. spelling.

Don't give up. We all screw up. Did you see the major fuck-up I accomplished with blockquotes last week? It was a doozy.

Back to GodFree-
I'm trying very hard to comply with the replying to phreedm ban. I still read, and so I saw he addressed me directly, which was difficult to ignore, but I did. I have slipped once or twice, for which I apologize. I join you in urging others to ignore him.

GodFree&Glad ,

I am 4 months 2 weeks and 5 days free. I have been tempted many times cause I can't avert mine eyes fast enough; usually a mistake. Occasionally I slip and make a tangential comment but never do I address the name that shall not be mentioned, directly.

Neowolfe,
I have occasionally read the wrong name at the top. It happens.

Phreedm,(check me on this)

I was unaware of this legislation and campaign promise. But, that does not surprise me much. I live in Idaho, where your vote for President only counts if you are Republican. Therefore, I sat back back and watched in disbelief as these people voted away their worker rights and elected their church as president.
But, this is not new or unique. The founding fathers of this country sat in session for days and weeks trying to hammer out a policy on which this government would be based. The fact that they agreed upon the wording, "all men are CREATED equal" was a huge leap for human society. But, the truth is, that all men are not even BORN equal. I may have firmly supported theoretical disagreements with Einstein's spinoff theories about the fabric of space and time, but, that does not make me his equal. Maybe I "got game" but I am not going to win one on one basketball with Shaq O'Neill. But, the issue of equal human rights was set aside and not confronted. Thus, the Civil War.

The fact has to be faced that we are the unchosen few. Either blessed or cursed, to see beyond the cloud of religion and superstition, but those who seek the approval of the majority are left without the option of pandering to the blinded majority.

You can come to your own conclusion. One of the options is that democracy doesn't work, that technocracy is better, that only the higly educated can vote. But, we are stuck with what we have, and as you look at the lot of the rest of the planet, we are the lucky ones.

As a species our greed and desire for dominance has always far exceeded our compassion and clear thinking on tough issues, like overpopulation, the influence of modern medicine on natural selection, and the role of religion in the accumulating roster of human holocausts throughout history. As a group, I think we are the last hope of humanity. But, the clock is ticking and the job is huge.
How did I do, karen, hon? Did I make any sense?

NeoWolfe

Neowolfe

Well, I'm still not clear on what point you're trying to make. Is the "we" you keep referring to atheists? Americans?

You did make me go look up technocracy. Tempting, but I don't agree with it. And I looked into Charitable Choice, since I guessed that was the legislation you were referring to and I didn't remember hearing of it either. (turns out it was during a major dissociative period for me)

Being created equal to me doesn't imply we all have the same intelligence or skill sets, but we have the same rights and responsibilities. "Created," not in the sense of being formed, but by an act of bestowing of/and or acknowledgment of those rights and responsibilities, which is what we do in a democracy or a republic such as we have.

but those who seek the approval of the majority are left without the option of pandering to the blinded majority.

How is this so? Isn't that exactly what is happening now in the presidential campaign?

I think that's enough for starters. Except, I would caution you about responding to phreedm. He is a troll. He doesn't answer questions. He only asks more questions and misdirects the conversation.

karen,
You say this is exactly what is happening in this presidential campaign, but that was exactly my point. That under this system it is inevitable for politicians to pander to the blinded in order to hold a hope of being elected.
As far as the fearsome "phreedm", he has already won. I can't even figure out whose arguing what. But, given a one on one debate about religion, science, and practical politics, I fear no man or woman. You can change the subject, but I'm ready there, too.

NeoWolfe

Karen

I'm trying very hard to comply with the replying to phreedm ban. I still read, and so I saw he addressed me directly, which was difficult to ignore, but I did.

I used to respond to him until I realized that he craves attention. It is so much fun denying him of it! It really gets under his translucent theist skin.

Neowolfe

OK, but you said "those who seek the approval of the majority are left without the option of pandering..."

What am I misunderstanding? Do you mean that atheists cannot run for office and pander to the majority?

phreedm isn't fearsome; he's annoying. Like a little yappy dog, that runs around in circles barking at the door to go out, and when you open the door for him, he runs to another door to repeat the process, only this time, instead of running to another door, he shits on your carpet. Then, he barks some more, like you did something wrong. And he believes his shit smells like roses.

What-

Good point.
BTW, I'll have to look into the thread suggestion you gave Dave. I'm way overdue on posting a new blog at GifS. Thanks!

Karen,

I guess if phreedm has no valid point to argue, eventually everyone will skip over his comments and move on.
But, you claim to misunderstand, but I think you understand clearly. Nothing prevents an atheist from running for public office, but being elected is a different thing entirely in a democracy. You must appeal to, and be trusted by more people among the voters than your opponent. What comes to mind is : Read my lips. No new taxes." Bottom line is that in business a verbal agreement is as binding as a written one if you can prove it in court. A verbal agreement in politics doesn't mean shit. It's all about winning regardless.

NeoWolfe

Neo

But, you claim to misunderstand, but I think you understand clearly. Nothing prevents an atheist from running for public office, but being elected is a different thing entirely in a democracy.

I get it now that you have affirmed the answer to my question. The part about it pertaining to atheists running only occurred to me when I typed the question earlier. I didn't realize that that was to whom you were referring. Sorry for being so slow on the uptake.
I hope we'll soon see a time when an open atheist on the ticket is commonplace and draws no particular attention. Heck, I'd settle for an open atheist on the ticket with a lot of brouhaha surrounding him/her. We have to keep letting the rest of the country know that we exist, and that we vote.

karen,

I share your hopes about what might be, but the reality on the ground is that we are hugely outnumbered. That is why I recommended caution on the subject of comemmorating sites of fallen law enforcement members with crosses. In essense it's true that spending government money to plant a cross at the site is a violation of the separation of church and state. But, from where we stand, even though we know that free thinkers are the last hope of humans on the planet, the battle for hearts and minds is more important than hopes for a victory that would only be won if we could uproot every cross in Arlington national cemetary. More inteligent fronts exist that warrant our time and trouble.

We are winning, a little at a time, because we have the greatest minds on the planet behind us, but, the nuclear clock is ticking and the question now looms, who is in control of Pakistan's nukes? The pimple has come to a head.

NeoWolfe