NoGodBlog.com

Nice cover Dave...apparently the Dems don't share your support of the "myth"...as was evident by last night's use of taxpayer dollars to have a church service before the convention began...

I'm still waiting for AA or the ACLU to make a formal complaint...

Of course you can always take Karen's approach...hope the Dems are lying now so you can trust them later...

But since you've started the thread...

Can any Obama supporter find anything factually wrong with this article?

Obama's books reveal him as having the personality of a man embittered by being abandoned by his African father and his unconventional white mother, and who came to believe that race is the issue that trumps all else and must be used for the redistribution of power and wealth. Obama sought out relationships with the socia1ist-radical Saul Alinsky, the unapologetic bomb-thrower Bill Ayers and his Weather Underground associate Bernardine Dohrn, the Communist poet Frank Marshall Davis, leftwing Muslim-supporting politicians in Kenya, the corrupt political fixer Tony Rezko, and the black-liberation-theology Reverend Jeremiah Wright who preaches hate America and accuses the United States of creating the AIDS virus to kill blacks.

http://eagleforum.org/column/2008/aug08/08-08-22.html

yes phreedm, I'll take your crap straight on.
The McCain camp really desperately wants to tie Resko to Obama through a deal on his house, but they can't. The rest of your spew is idiocy and if it weren't the McCain camp would have been all over it like flies on shit months ago. Do you think your spies are better than his?

If you want to parade your inteligence, you may want to acquire some before you go x filing on a free thinker site. Maybe you'd feel more at home at a Nazi home for the mentally decapitated web site. Oh, wait, they're booked solid until after the republican convention.

NeoWolfe

lol

pwned

DNC convention this one is for history books.i don't think obama is faking his faith i do have some concern that his election could lead to civil unrest as he is a anti white racist.just read his own writing if you want proof.

I'll be voting for NOT Obama.

Racist fuck pastor = fail.

I get the feeling a lot of white Americans who think of themselves as liberals and anti-racists are not recognising as latent prejudice their temptation to find any excuse to reject Obama.

Humans are awfully good at fooling ourselves and unthinking behaviour like discomfort with people who are visibly different is one that I think we easily hide from ourselves.

DDD

No shit. Some "free thinkers" here haven't kicked the race religion.

Want more war, less jobs? Vote McCain. Want a president tied directly to scandals that took down our economy in the 80's and are taking down our economy presently? Vote McCain. Want a president that has been in Washington for decades yet STILL is not ready? Vote McCain. Want a president that calls his wife a cunt? Vote McCain. Want a president that will be dead inside two years? Vote McCain.

I'm John McCain and I approve of this message. Well straight talk is straight talk.

"No way, no how, no McCain"

Hillary Clinton

I cannot bring myself to vote for Obama for a variety of reasons. The fiscal irresponsibility of Democrats coupled with a ready and willing majority of Democrats prepared to rubber stamp socialized medicine and any other wasteful spending program they can dream up into law.

It's like putting the proverbial fox in charge of the hen house. Don't get me wrong, the Republicans in charge of everything for the last 8 years has probably been the worst period for civil liberties our country has faced since the red scare and McCarthyism.

Ideally if I can't have a Libertarian congress and president I would prefer to settle with a Democrat as a president and a Republican controlled congress. I'd prefer that they have to fight over every bill that they can't immediately come to a bipartisan solution on. This keeps them busy, limits the amount of trouble that they can cause during their terms, and keeps growth down (since they can't typically agree on how to grow).

"That government is best which governs least."

US Census reporting today that the median household income in 2007 was lower than in 2000.

Atomic

The fiscal irresponsibility of Democrats

That's funny stuff. Only most Americans aren't laughing. The rethugs have run the economy into the ground and it has a long way to go before it hit bottom.

majority of Democrats prepared to rubber stamp socialized medicine

There isn't a single Democratic congressman or presidential candidate advocating "socialized medicine". Matter of fact the only developed country that I know of with socialized medicine is the UK.

What the Dems are advocating isn't even socialized medical insurance (which is what I would advocate and is what most advanced countries have). It is a hybrid plan.

Don't get me wrong, the Republicans in charge of everything for the last 8 years has probably been the worst period for civil liberties ...

And the economy ,and foreign policy, and national security.

Which leaves what reason to vote rethuglican? Ah yes! Family values.

What,

Must you be so childish and dishonest as to imply that I said things that I certainly did not? Also, presidents have almost no effect on the economy (beyond taxation). They sure are quick to take the credit when things are going well.

And to address your point about fiscal responsibility - Democrats do lasting damage by creating wide-sweeping, expensive programs that take vast additional expense to keep going. The cost to "fix" social security alone is example enough. Out of all of the New Deal programs only a tiny fraction of them have survived in some form to this day and all of them are failing and grossly expensive to maintain.

At least wars end.

And don't try to get me to drink your Kool-Aid on the relabeling of socialized medicine as "universal healthcare." It passes the duck test all on its own. Hiding it or changing the method to achieve precisely the same ends without substanital difference in cost or effectiveness isn't going to stop it from walking and quacking like the duck that it is.

I also don't fall for the tactic of creeping socialism. Taking a little duck step at a time, hiding behind a bush until the coast is clear, and muffling the quack a little does not make a duck cease to be a duck either. It just becomes a sneaky duck.

Both parties are out of control with spending, neither can be trusted....I would vote libertarian if I thought they could win...I am voting for the dems because our supreme court is very close to being a religiously conservative court that will allow a porous separation of church and state....The dems have traditionally appointed liberals to the court and there could be an appointment or 2 during the next 8 years....The court is dangerously close to allowing religious based rulings and will reverse Roe V Wade because God has a pool of souls to drop in an embryo right at conception, and it certainly doesn't matter if the sperm is from a supernatural being or not...

Well...Neo isn't up for the challenge...

It's always telling in a discussion when instead of discussing facts one needs to resort to character assassination...

Comment from: neowolfe

The McCain camp really desperately wants to tie Resko to Obama through a deal on his house, but they can't.

He doesn't have to...Obama has admitted it himself...

Obama maintains his relationship with Rezko was "above board and legal" but has admitted bad judgment, calling his decision to involve Rezko "a bone-headed mistake."

Rezko's behind-the-scenes connection in the Obama house deal became public as Rezko revealed personal financial details as he sought to post bail.

While Rezko's wife paid the full asking price for the land, Obama paid $300,000 under the asking price for the house. The house sold for $1,650,000 and the price Rezko's wife paid for the land was $625,000.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4111483

Comment from: What

Matter of fact the only developed country that I know of with socialized medicine is the UK.

Hmmmm....ok.

atomic,
Please don't criticize the second coming of christ. I heard by the time his first term is done, everyone in America will have a new pony!

I guess medicaid doesn't count as socialized medicine either???

Neowolfe, remember a couple of weeks ago about the license plates? Phreedm is not here to converse but antagonize.


p.s. don't feed the troll.

I was fine with Hillary's speech and thought she endorsed Obama well last night. Then I wake up and our conservative talk radio here in Austin is just rambling how Hillary didn't support Barack and tonight Bill is going to do even more damage. They keep mentioning the 18 M votes and some not coming over to Barack. I was tempted to call in and ask how many Ron Paul folks are willing to do the same and vote for McCain but the screeners are punks at that station.

Obama, McCain...now more than ever, both of those guys are looking alike. A vote for one is a vote for both. Obama's made it clear he's NOT for change, and we know not to expect change from McCain anyway.

I'm ready to picket the inauguration no matter who wins. The US of A has already lost, imho.

"Don't blame me...I didn't vote." Damn right.

Joe Zamecki
Austin

Can any Obama supporter find anything factually wrong with this article?

Yes, you got it from the eagleforum, an organization made up of old republican women who populate Dick Chaneys wet dreams.

Comment from: ga4ry

Yes, you got it from the eagleforum, an organization made up of old republican women who populate Dick Chaneys wet dreams.

I'll take your comment as a "no" to my question. Otherwise you'd be all over it...

Comment from: TXatheist

I was fine with Hillary's speech and thought she endorsed Obama well last night. Then I wake up and our conservative talk radio here in Austin is just rambling how Hillary didn't support Barack and tonight Bill is going to do even more damage.

Obviously you heard what you wanted to hear. It was all about Hillary...
Not Obama...she never mentioned one accomplishment of Obama's. Only her own....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=268ncnoitEc

What...do I know. You better pay attention...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-XssR45W4E

the jews will select our president sorry dave but you know it is true.so i hope the jews will have good judgement.if any doubt that the jews don't control the gov't then why has no candidate who is not 110% pro israel ever elected.israelis are more critical of israel than american politicians so what does that say.

I here ya Joe

Im disgusted with both too....but if the Libertarian Party is not at the debates with mccain and obama....then we have to vote for obama because traditionally democrats appoint liberal judges....

if mccain wins....then the ACLU will only have a chance in hell....

Atomic

The rethugs got everything they wanted these past eight years and now we know what the rethuglican ideology looks like when implemented.

Must you be so childish and dishonest as to imply that I said things that I certainly did not?

Did I misinterpret something you wrote? Maybe you should express yourself more clearly. From your response it looks like I did not misinterpreted a thing.

Also, presidents have almost no effect on the economy (beyond taxation).

That is just about one of the most historically ignorant things I have ever read on this blog. One does not have to go further back in history than this morning to understand how deregulation of the financial industry is presently destroying our economy. Are you going to argue that pushing deregulation is not a matter that has concerned republican presidents? Or are you going to argue the even more bizarre notion that US presidents are powerless to implement such policy?

Really man, that is just stupid!

And to address your point about fiscal responsibility - Democrats do lasting damage by creating wide-sweeping, expensive programs that take vast additional expense to keep going.

Government expenditures have hugely increased under the rethuglicans. I guess if you don't mind paying taxes to fund wars launched by corporations then the rethugs are a good fit for you. I guess if you don't mind bailing out corporations when their risky ventures threaten our entire economy then rethugs are for you.

As more and bigger banks start fail because of the deregulation of the financial industry are you going to expect the government to bail them out? Do you have money in a federally insured bank?

The cost to "fix" social security alone is example enough.

Fix it? It isn't broken. You have accepted the Faux News talking points and now you think there is a big problem where there is no big problem. Please explain to us here how broken SS is. Tell us what that cost to fix it is that you spoke of.

At least wars end.

This one hasn't. Has it? And if the rethugs get their way IT WONT. Whats more the international consequences for launching it will live on for a long long time.

And don't try to get me to drink your Kool-Aid on the relabeling of socialized medicine as "universal healthcare."

You obviously do not understand the huge difference between socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance. I have explained it to you in the past. Should I do so again? It is a big issue these days and one should really have a clue if they are going to speak of it.

I also don't fall for the tactic of creeping soci*lism.

You, like most rethugs, see threats where none exist. You must live in a frightening world.

TXatheist,
I hear you're advice that I should not feed the troll. I have read other comments as well indicating that a consensus exists that his input is not welcome. I'm new here, and it didn't take me long to form an opinion about his general demeanor. I was particularly entertained by a comment he made in response to your assessment of Hillary Clinton's speech, when he accused you of hearing what you wanted to hear(I think he was subliminally talking to himself in a mirror). Well, he's made it obvious that he hates Obama, and quoted a bunch of slanted crap to smear him, but what I don't hear from him is any coherent inteligent support for a better plan. And one of the things Jesus was right about is that it serves no purpose to "throw pearls before swine".
But, now that this fray has begun, as all political discussions do, think about this. Can you imagine the daunting task that the founding fathers of this country had in Philadephia trying to come to a compromise between all the delegates. Some of them frontier woodsmen, farmers, elected officials, slave owners, marine merchants, each representing a different constituency. There would have been greed, selfishness, ambition, idealism, fear, prestige, genuine loyalties, logic, betrayal, racism, stubborness, visionaries, and total fools, all mixed up together trying to agree on a cause that was worth risking their lives for. Democracy is noisy. I think phreedm obviously fits in the total fool catagory, but if fools had no voice, this blog would serve no purpose. He brings to the table the idiot vote, and if his point doesn't merit an answer, don't answer it.

NeoWolfe

The cost to "fix" social security alone is example enough.



Comment from: What

Fix it? It isn't broken.

Yikes...now is there anybody else on the board that believes Social Security is not in big trouble...?

How can anyone debate with someone who is so challenged when it comes to economics...

Deregulation causing the mortgage crisis? Sheesh....get a grip.

Blaming the lenders is the party line of Congressional Democrats as well. What we need is more government regulation of lenders, they say, to protect the innocent borrowers from "predatory" lending practices.

Before going further down that road, it may be useful to look back at what got us into this mess in the first place.

It was not that many years ago when there was moral outrage ringing throughout the media because lenders were reluctant to lend in certain neighborhoods and because banks did not approve mortgage loan applications from blacks as often as they approved mortgage loan applications from whites.

All this was an opening salvo in a campaign to get Congress to pass laws forcing lenders to lend to people they would not otherwise lend to and in places where they would not otherwise put their money.

More important, in the same ways that blacks differ from whites, whites differ from Asian Americans. The fact that whites are turned down for conventional mortgage loans, and resort to subprime loans, more often than Asian Americans do is seldom reported in "news" stories about lending practices, even though such data are readily available.

l.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/07/22/bankrupt_exploiters?page=1

Comment from: neowolfe

Well, he's made it obvious that he hates Obama, and quoted a bunch of slanted crap to smear him

Say Neo...I didn't "quote" anyone...

I merely posted videos of others comments. Now exactly how are the words of Dems smearing Obama?

I don't hate anyone, let alone Obama.
What I do fear is the damage he'll do to our country with his inexperience...

The reality is most on this board will vote for him, not for what he promises...but out of their hatred towards Bush...

but what I don't hear from him is any coherent inteligent support for a better plan.

Exactly which area would like to discuss?

Neowolfe

That was one fine post! I think you have got a winning formula now.

Phreeky revels in his ignorance. Just look at his last post. What a dolt!

SS fix? Remove the cap on income above 90k...problem solved.

SS is an illegal ponzi scheme that is destined to fail without an accelerating population growth model.

And I'm fucking tired of being ripped off for the promise of a shitty return on my investment 40+ years away. Anyone with half a brain can do better in an IRA.

"I'd love to see a point where it is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary," McCain told the Chronicle in 1999. "But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations."

+1 McCain, let's start a tally.

MxRacer

And I'm fucking tired of being ripped off for the promise of a shitty return on my investment 40+ years away. Anyone with half a brain can do better in an IRA.

Do you think IRAs are immune to bad investments made by the custodians of the IRA? Not when banks start going under. And the wave of financial giants failing is just getting started.

TX

Bingo!

SS fix? Remove the cap on income above 90k...problem solved.

Absolutely!!

I think I won the point TXatheist, when pressed to make a point, the troll turned into a dandelion top of sterile seeds blown into to the wind by a kindergartener. But, his type is never going away, at least until genetic mercy killing becomes legal. That's a joke.

NeoWolfe

NeoWolfe

That was perfect. Don't address Le Phreak directly. Just indirectly mock and ridicule it. Bravo.

What,
I am part of no conspiracy to eliminate or even discourage phreedm. The Dalai Lama thinks that the folly of man is ultimate source of humor, and I'm not sure I disagree. Phreedm is a pathetic wart, but why don't we keep him around as a court jestor. Sometimes during moments of laughter we need a brunt, but more importantly, when we become self absorbed we need someone to pity.

NeoWolfe

NeoWolfe

It is not my goal to rid this blog of Le Phreak. If we did another would simply take his place. I suggest we just have fun at his expense.

Ok this is totally unrelated but I though I would throw it out there anyway, in one of my classes we were doing this goal setting worksheet and it asked us to rate our spiritual life, defining it as "Your personal philosophy and inner feelings about life make up a part of the spiritual portion of your life plan. Also you should think about your personal convictions in this section" then it has 5-"It couldn't be better" all the way down to 1-"I need work" so I didn't really know what to think of this...is it really appropriate to talk about that in public school?

cbo,
that's nebulous enough to not warrant too much attention. Of course, the entire context must be taken into account.

What,

Do you think IRAs are immune to bad investments made by the custodians of the IRA? Not when banks start going under. And the wave of financial giants failing is just getting started.

The market returns an average of 9% y/y, far & above what the government returns for your SS tax. Anyone close to retiring would have blended out stocks for bonds or cash & thus been immune to the latest downturn. Everyone else has enough time to ride it out.

Life isn't sanitized, saran wrapped & heremetically sealed.

I find it hard to believe that you lack that economic understanding, so are you just making excuses for people being too lazy to learn about something as important as retirement investing?

Comment from: mxracer652

I find it hard to believe that you lack that economic understanding

What...do I know's arguments were used in 2001 when there was an attempt to allow people to opt out of SSI...

It would be risky to invest in the stock market was the mantra...

The Dow stood at 7500 then...from there it ran to 14,000. Only a person with no understanding of economics would claim SSI is a better investment...

But then again..."What do I know" believes Obama is his salvation...

What ever happened to self-reliance...?

TXatheist--

SS fix? Remove the cap on income above 90k...problem solved.

Um . . . . maybe I'm a financial idiot, but what does that mean?? Do you mean that any income over 90k should be taxed at an even higher rate? That doesn't seem fair to me. I think I heard that there is a 90% income tax rate on some of the very wealthy in the UK (or it used to be that way - I'm too tired to look it up now.) Seems like taxes that high will discourage businesses.

pixel

Once you reach a certain point of income, you quit paying out on social security for the the year. I guess that line is at 90K now. We used to use the "free social security" month's money to pay for xmas presents; it was usually October thru December. Of course, if you make 90K by April, you only pay into SS for 4 months of the year.

Mxracer

The market returns an average of 9% y/y, far & above what the government returns for your SS tax.

Until it doesn't. Which is now.

The compounded average y/y (year-over-year) change in the stock market was about 5% over the past century. You may disagree with that number but here is the more important number. The range of fluctuation in y/y returns is much larger - maybe two fold. So on the average people will make money if they don't get wiped out. SS is our societies way of telling people that they must be responsible for themselves - not the opposite as you claim. It is our societies way of telling you you that if you are going to take risks with your money our society well fine but we are going to force you to put some aside so that we don't have to bail your sorry butt out when the inevitable happens to a large number of investors.

To a seasoned investor your proclamation of 9% y/y will sound an awful lot like "home values never decrease". Do you have any idea what is presently happening to our economy? Do have any idea what has happened in the past?

There were at least for huge stock market crashes in the 20th century: Wall Street Crash of 1929, stock market crash of 1973–4, Black Monday of 1987, and the DotCom bubble of 2000. Lots of folks were wiped out financially. I'll bet they are real happy they have SS regardless of how they felt about SS before their fall.

And that is what SS is for. It's not a retirement plan.

I thought this thread was supposed to be about the Democrats.

On the topic of social security, I tend to agree with the supporters of the present program, as long as you recognize it for what it really is (i.e., the world's biggest welfare program for the richest portion of Americans).

On the topic of the Democrats, I find it a bit hypocritical for a blog about atheism to be so supportive of a political party and a candidate that are so infused with religion.

Neowolfe, I don't doubt for one second you won the point on phreedm. I'm just saying he's not here to converse but antagonize, that's all.

Thanks karen. Yes, after 90k no SS is collected on income. That's the shortfall problem.

geoih,
Your point is well taken, and I share your pain when I hear politicians talk about their faith and family values, as though one has anything to do with the other.

Karen and I had a discussion about that on another thread, and I made the point that as long as the blinded majority (evangelicals and fundamentalists) retain their right to vote, because of their sheer numbers and political activism of religious organizations,politicians have no choice but to pander to their interests in order to be elected.
It may leave a bad taste in the mouth of a free thinker, but obviously, the Democratic party is less poisoned by the influence of the radical ultra right wing. What comes to mind is the congressional order to the Supreme Court to review the case of Terry Shiavo, a case over which they had no authority. It was Republican grandstanding on their "sanctity of life" platform. The real hipocrits are those that worship a god that murdered an entire planet in the flood, yet claim that every life is sacred.

NeoWolfe

TXatheist and Karen,

I think that debates on the economy are empty unless you discuss the root of the problem. Free trade agreements have pitted American businesses toe to toe with third world sweat shops. They have no EPA requiring them to invest in the technology to limit pollution and requirements for disposal of hazardous waste. They have no labor unions forcing employers to provide safe working conditions and a fair wage so that the vital working man gets his piece of the pie. No OSHA, no building codes or inspectors, all of which become overhead expenses for American business.

So who benefits from free trade? Marketing fat cats who buy lead toys in China in such bulk that they can afford to ship them to the opposit side of the planet and still net huge profits.

Free trade with countries like Canada, Britain, France is okay with me, because they have a similar standard of living, similar regulations on manufacturing, but even then, Canada bankrupted our timber industy, and France nearly destroyed our steel industry. And John McCain's first proposal for boosting the economy was a free trade agreement with Colombia. Yeah that'll work. What a joke!!

But the bottom line is that a good economy cures everything else. Social Security, funding higher education, maintaining infrastructure, solidarity of financial institutions and unemployment. The only thing it won't cure is religion.


NeoWolfe

As long as the govt. insists on stealing (yeah, that is the right word - when you "borrow" money from S.S. with no intention of paying back the money it really is stealing) from S.S., the S.S. program can be made to look as though it is failing. Put the money (even without interest) back and you'll see that S.S. is more than solvent.

PS.

Oh, yeah. You know who else benefits from free trade. Huge corporations who pack up our jobs and take them to third world countries and open their own little "sweat shops"

NeoWolfe

Did I misinterpret something you wrote? Maybe you should express yourself more clearly. From your response it looks like I did not misinterpreted a thing.

I cannot seem to find a single shred of common ground with you. I said that I cannot bring myself to vote for Obama, I did not say that I am voting for McCain. If the congress were controlled by the Republicans and Obama would drop the socialized medicine bullshit I would consider it. It's not, and he won't.

Your profession may make you feel intellectually superior to others, but it doesn't. You cannot even read a simple statement without making assumptions and charging about like a bull that has seen red. I stated my reasons for my opinion. If you somehow think that making a total ass of yourself by swinging at windmills is going to sway me to your point of view, you are sorely mistaken.

If you are trying to do so, do so with facts and evidence to support your claims. If you are not trying to change my mind, lay off the needling already because it is seriously pissing me off.

P.S. It might help your cause to avoid being inflammatory and cease using childish neologistic terms such as "rethuglican." It might have been cute the very first time you used it. Now it merely remains as a constant reminder to the rest of us of the level of your intellect.

Comment from: geoih

On the topic of the Democrats, I find it a bit hypocritical for a blog about atheism to be so supportive of a political party and a candidate that are so infused with religion.

Right on target...something I've been saying for years...

Why hasn't AA or the ACLU condemned the opening church service which has used public funds?

Simple...they only use the "myth" for their own advancement...it has nothing to do with "Truth"...

It appears the weak minded on this board who support censorship are merely following Obama's tactics...

A great window on how he'd governn...

"WGN radio is giving right-wing hatchet man Stanley Kurtz a forum to air his baseless, fear-mongering terrorist smears," Obama's campaign wrote in an e-mail to supporters. "He's currently scheduled to spend a solid two-hour block from 9:00 to 11:00 p.m. pushing lies, distortions, and manipulations about Barack and University of Illinois professor William Ayers."

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/08/obama_campaign_confronts_wgn_r.html

atomic
Hope you have plenty of kleenex - All those tears might short out your keyboard.

Comment from: neowolfe

Oh, yeah. You know who else benefits from free trade. Huge corporations who pack up our jobs and take them to third world countries and open their own little "sweat shops"

How little you understand...

How many jobs were imported to America?

Now, taxation and regulations wouldn't have a thing to do with the cost of doing business in America...now would they...

Hope you have plenty of kleenex - All those tears might short out your keyboard.

I knew there was a reason that I rarely post here anymore. While I enjoy conversing with many of you, I receive this kind of treatment whenever I share opinions that some of you do not like.

Loathe as I am to admit it, I'm starting to think Phreedm is right. Maybe you are just shills for the Democratic party.

FYI, Independent.

I'm not so much pro Obama as I'm anti GOP. I personally believe any vote for anything other than dems is a vote for the GOP and I won't go there! Was independent till I went dem so I could vote for Gatewood Galbreth (sp). I worry that if the GOP can make Max Cleland seem not patriotic enough, what'll they do to Obama?

What,
I give up. You either don't read what I type or fail to comprehend it.

Atomic

I knew there was a reason that I rarely post here anymore. While I enjoy conversing with many of you, I receive this kind of treatment whenever I share opinions that some of you do not like.

Your problem conversing here is that you can't seem to follow the guidelines you set for others. But even more importantly you have no authority to set any guidelines.

If you are trying to do so, do so with facts and evidence to support your claims.

Now that is a perfect example. You demand that others support their claims with facts yet you absolutely refuse to do so yourself. Here's a prime example of that:

... and Obama would drop the socialized medicine bullshit I would consider it.

You have repeatedly stated here that Obama advocates for socialized medicine. This is grossly incorrect and I have pointed that out to you numerous times. There is a big difference between socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance. Either you do not understand the basic facts in this regard or you are intentionally trying to mislead. Is there a third possibility? You tell me.

As far as insulting my intelligence goes. I get a kick out of it.

Atomic

I knew there was a reason that I rarely post here anymore. While I enjoy conversing with many of you, I receive this kind of treatment whenever I share opinions that some of you do not like.

Your problem conversing here is that you can't seem to follow the guidelines you set for others. But even more importantly you have no authority to set any guidelines.

If you are trying to do so, do so with facts and evidence to support your claims.

Now that is a perfect example. You demand that others support their claims with facts yet you absolutely refuse to do so yourself. Here's a prime example of that:

... and Obama would drop the socialized medicine bullshit I would consider it.

You have repeatedly stated here that Obama advocates for socialized medicine. This is grossly incorrect and I have pointed that out to you numerous times. There is a big difference between socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance. Either you do not understand the basic facts in this regard or you are intentionally trying to mislead. Is there a third possibility? You tell me.

As far as insulting my intelligence goes. I get a kick out of it.

foot152

I here ya. I was an independent until BushCo was elected.

phreedumb,

Enlighten me on how many jobs have come to America due to free trade.

Taxation and regulation have everything to do with the cost of doing business in America. That was exactly my point. I guess the students on the short bus need a little more time get the message.

NeoWolfe

As far as the Dems pandering to the religious nuts: Folks it is the oldest trick in warfare - divide and concur. If the Dems are successful in splitting the religious vote and thereby rendering them irrelevant then fantastic.

Obama just voted to give $300 billion to big agribusiness for marketing, tax breaks for race horse owners, and the ethanol scam among others.

I don't see how much more of a whore he could be towards corporations & the rich than anyone else?

Time to pull the wool back folks.

Tangentially related to the thread:

Elizabeth Dole Attacks Senate Opponent for Meeting with Atheists

North Carolina Senator Elizabeth Dole and her communications staff put out a press release today criticizing her Democratic challenger Kay Hagan.
What did Hagan do to deserve the criticism?
She plans to attend a fundraiser hosted by atheists.

On September 15th, Kay Hagan is heading to Boston, Massachusetts to attend a fundraiser for her Senate campaign. What may surprise mainstream North Carolinians is that the fundraiser will be in the home of leading anti religion activists Wendy Kaminer and her lawyer husband Woody Kaplan — who is an advisor to the “Godless Americans Political Action Committee.”
…
The press release in part says:

“Kay Hagan does not represent the values of this state; she is a Trojan Horse for a long list of wacky left-wing outside groups bent on policies that would horrify most North Carolinians if they knew about it,” [Communications Director Dan] McLagan said. “This latest revelation of support from anti-religion activists will not sit well with the 90% of state residents who identify with a specific religious faith.”

As a result of this press release, people who never heard of Kay Hagan and who don't even live in NC are sending donations to her campaign. Read the comments in the link below at Hemant's blog for some very well-written responses to Liddy Dole.

http://friendlyatheist.com/4229/elizabeth-dole-attacks-senate-opponent-for-meeting-with-atheists/

Your problem conversing here is that you can't seem to follow the guidelines you set for others. But even more importantly you have no authority to set any guidelines.

Uh, yeah, when I am talking about what is needed to sway my opinion about something I really do get to set the rules you presumptuous douche.

You have repeatedly stated here that Obama advocates for socialized medicine. This is grossly incorrect and I have pointed that out to you numerous times. There is a big difference between socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance.

The only difference is in your own head if you actually believe that.

No matter how you slice it the goal is exactly the same. It's to force everyone to pay into everyone else's medical costs. I am sorry, but I don't give a shit about a majority of people's health problems because many of them are self inflicted. The obese, chain-smoking, beer-swilling liver-killing public is not my concern. If you want to subsidize their unhealthy lifestyle, convince your state government to create the program and tax its citizens. If I am unlucky enough to share the same state with you after your success at this, I'll move.

Creating a system of "insurance" where nobody is turned down, nobody can opt out of, everyone pays for, and all medical expenses are paid is identical to socalized medicine in every respect. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Karen...

That article is mirroring the Obama's campaign tactics...

What's wrong with pointing out who our politicians associate with?

You can't deny that those who are throwing the fund raiser are on the fringe...

Comment from: mxracer652

What,
I give up. You either don't read what I type or fail to comprehend it.

MXR...careful. What-do I know will resort to childish antics and insults...

atomictesticles,
I have yet to hear any coherent arguments to support your objection, either to socialized practice of medicine, or socialized medical insurance. Canada has it, and so does Britain, and even the medical community has rated their medical care equal to ours. Yes, they pay for it in taxes, but what do you want to do, pay four hundred bucks a month per person in your household to a greedy ass insurance company you have to take to court to make them pay up, or to the government with no argument. But wait, maybe it takes Canadian doctors a little longer to pay off that third Lambourghini. And maybe there is no motivation anymore for hospitals to hold medicare patients in order to keep their beds full.
The system is broken dude, and you are freaking out about the POSSIBILITY that someone wants to fix it. Don't you understand that there are thousands of people here in our country dying because they can't afford the heath care that they need. Those people are beloved fathers and mothers and children. This is real tragedy happening every day so rich people can get richer.
My father was fifty two when he died of colon cancer. He never smoked a cigarette in his life, barely drank at all. He had medical insurance, and what they didn't pay forced my mother to sell the house where I grew up, sell my grandparents trailerhouse (my grandmother had to move in with my uncle)and go live with her brother.

So much for your self induced tragedy theory. I think you might be right about your connection with phreedumb. You're like two penises in a pod. Fred Phelps is to Christianity as you idiots are to free thought.

NeoWolfe


NeoWolfe

hello..this is williams.as far i know obama politics are very cruel.
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NeoWolfe

Atomic and I have been at it before over the medical insurance issue. He simply does not understand the basics and refuses to learn. He is a very ideological chap. He insists he doesn't want to pay for others medical care but doesn't understand that he already is and always will be. The only question that remains is how to do it efficiently and robustly - two specifications which are almost always at odds.

Notice...Obama isn't saying anything...

Lot's of fluff...and no substance...

The DNC "closing benediction" is just another thing I can tack onto my list of why I'm not voting.

Spinfusor

Splitting the evangelical vote makes them politically irrelevant = good thing!

Closing benediction = divide and conquer.

Lots of memorable and insightful lines from Obama's speech. Here's a few of my favorites.

But the record's clear: John McCain has voted with George Bush 90 percent of the time. Sen. McCain likes to talk about judgment, but really, what does it say about your judgment when you think George Bush has been right more than 90 percent of the time? I don't know about you, but I'm not ready to take a 10 percent chance on change.

and

Individual responsibility and mutual responsibility -- that's the essence of America's promise.

and

You know, John McCain likes to say that he'll follow bin Laden to the Gates of Hell -- but he won't even go to the cave where he lives.

and

And as someone who watched my mother argue with insurance companies while she lay in bed dying of cancer, I will make certain those companies stop discriminating against those who are sick and need care the most.

and

Now, I don't believe that Sen. McCain doesn't care what's going on in the lives of Americans. I just think he doesn't know.

and

And when I hear a woman talk about the difficulties of starting her own business or making her way in the world, I think about my grandmother, who worked her way up from the secretarial pool to middle-management, despite years of being passed over for promotions because she was a woman. She's the one who taught me about hard work. She's the one who put off buying a new car or a new dress for herself so that I could have a better life. She poured everything she had into me. And although she can no longer travel, I know that she's watching tonight, and that tonight is her night as well.

Now, I don't know what kind of lives John McCain thinks that celebrities lead, but this has been mine.

I wonder how many theists will be asking if gawd is trying to tell the rethuglicans something. From The Washington Post:

Republican officials said yesterday that they are considering delaying the start of the GOP convention in Minneapolis-St. Paul because of Tropical Storm Gustav, which is on track to hit the Gulf Coast, and possibly New Orleans, as a full-force hurricane early next week.

Gov. Palin for VP?

Just watch the feminists attack her...

And "feminists" come in all genders...

Don't they "What...do I know"?

Atomic, What, mxracer, neowolfe, others...

Even though I don't wish the insults would continue I appreciate the discussion on insurance/healthcare. Can anyone else confirm medicare only spends half of what privatized healthcare does in admin costs? I read that the other day. Please don't insult me :)

both parties are funded by the same sources so how does one think there is going to be any major change.

TX,
You are probably right, I am quick on the trigger, and don't mind trading paint with mental midgets. That's not always a constructive choice.

Reason,

Major change happens in a lot of different ways. If you were Polish or French, major change came when Nazi Germany invaded your country. That's not a good thing.

Major change also comes when tsunamis stike like it did in Thailand and Malaysia. That's not good either.

But, major change also happens when a dynamic leader comes along who rallies the hearts and minds of his people to work as a team to reach a goal. This may be a poor example, and I will probably get trashed for this, but, Jesus was a visionary that changed the perception his people had of god from "Jehovah of Armies" to a father figure of love and forgiveness. He was promptly rewarded by the ruling religious class with death by slow torture, but he changed the face of the planet forever, or at least until man is extinct.
My point is, that while ample reason exists to be synical about future possibilities, we have two choices, to have hopes and dreams and fight to make them come true, or quit.

NeoWolfe

TXatheist,

They lied. What the Govt. does in that case is shift much of the administrative overhead to the hospitals. They do this to bolster their own numbers in a way that is harder to prove.

This has been discussed ad nauseum. Take a look at this thread:

http://www.atheists.org/nogodblog/index.php/2007/10/05/unchristian

neowolfe,
I understand that several posters on the blog recently ripped you a new one. Contributing to the hostile attitude by picking on the nerdy guy with the glasses in order to make a few friends is a bit low. Are we in High School, or are (some of us) educated adults? My beef is with What. He is right that we have all been over this before.

The pompous "I'm a doctor so I know better than you and you just need to learn the basics" attitude is exactly the same as the "I'm a Christian so I know better than you and you just need to see the light!" attitude. I have educated myself quite well on this topic. Also, What makes it painfully obvious that being an M.D. clearly confers no special understanding of medical insurance (or anything else).

What,
The statement...

He insists he doesn't want to pay for others medical care but doesn't understand that he already is and always will be.

...makes it rather clear that you have no intention of trying to actually support your position that there is functional difference between out-and-out socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance. This statement appears to be conceding the point. Good on you. Doesn't it feel better to just come out with it that your position is based on your personal feelings and not on evidence?

It was a sneaky duck indeed, but I flushed the little fellow out into the open. Now, let's see if you can concede this point too: Since the government has mandated automobile insurance in almost every state the costs have continually gone up. The government created a situation where they have handed the insurance companies our balls and the government is entirely to blame.

I'd like you to do a little homework and find evidence that the government runs programs better and cheaper than the businesses they replace. I'd also like to see a little bit of evidence that the government can do no wrong and that they are less open to corruption than said buisnesses.

You seem to have gotten this notion that there is a magical conferrence of divine purity to the actions of our federal government as long as Democrats are in charge. I suppose when fiscal conservatives (yes, they are hard to find in this day and age) are in charge they're under the influence of Satan.

There are corollaries to be found between dogmatic political ideology and dogmatic religious ideology. In this country I am the heretic, on both accounts, and a lot of libertarians are atheists. Try and figure out why that is and get back to me.

TX

Medicare spends around 2% of its funds on admin whereas private insurers spend around 15%. This along with the fact that there is universal agreement that anybody should have access to emergent medical are the two most important pieces of the puzzle.

Atomic

I will address your propaganda this evening. For now you could take a look at the widely respected report on medical costs in the US called the McKinsey report.

Doesn't anybody here work!?

Medicare spends around 2% of its funds on admin whereas private insurers spend around 15%.

http://tinyurl.com/ara5g

"We often hear that Medicare and Medicaid are efficient. The government says Medicaid only spends about 2 percent of its budget on administration. But that ignores all the costs that are shifted to doctors and hospitals. When you incorporate
all those costs, it turns out that actually Medicare is not very efficient at all."

Was all said and quoted before. I still have not seen a single refutation.

I will address your propaganda this evening.

Way to disrespect points with a dismissive attitude. I used to be more civil. Anyone would get a little bit pissed when others shovel shit on them all day.

Doesn't anybody here work!?

You got me. I actually support government social programs because I live off them. Thanks for paying all my bills so that I can complain about the state of society paying all my bills.

It would be nice to see points debated without personal insults slung at those who disagree.

Is it Ok to post something about the convemtion? Or will that interrupt your conversation??

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sally_quinn/2008/08/atheists_the_last_political_ou.html

Idon't know how to make a link here but type that in and you'll see just how welcome we are in the "big tent"

"(Bob) Tierman says he just couldn't stand it anymore. "I stood up (at the intrefaith gathering) and said "I am a Democrat but I'm not a person of faith." I said " This looks like a church service to me and I never thought I'd see to Democrats do this type of thing." At this point, the police came and escorted Tierman from the Hall."...

Don't even tell them that you don't believe or else they'll have the cops throw you out.

So this is why I'm supposed to vote for Obama??

Teammarty,

Great find. I, too, would love an answer to your question.

One thing I could not help but notice was the title of the article: "Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts"

This makes me sad, in a way, because we truly are political outcasts. The thing that I do look up a bit more about is the idea that we are "the last." This is an indicator that if we keep up the fight, we'll eventually be accorded a place at the table. That is an encouraging thought!

AtomicTestes

My beef is with What.

Your beef is with reality. It just pisses you off that the world doesn't conform to your libertarian ideology. Sorry about that. Reality bites!

Also, What makes it painfully obvious that being an M.D. clearly confers no special understanding of medical insurance (or anything else).

Your envy isn't even thinly veiled.

..makes it rather clear that you have no intention of trying to actually support your position that there is functional difference between out-and-out socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance.

Did you mean to say "is no functional difference". I will assume that's what you mean otherwise your former rants make even less sense.

Socialized medicine refers to systems in which the government runs the hospitals and where doctors and staff are government employees.

Socialized medical insurance refers to a system where the hospitals are privately run and the doctors are either self employed or are employees of the hospital.

If you do not see the vast difference in these two systems I can only say that I am astonished.

This statement appears to be conceding the point.

Huh? What is wrong with you?

And then you post this gem:

"We often hear that Medicare and Medicaid are efficient. The government says Medicaid only spends about 2 percent of its budget on administration. But that ignores all the costs that are shifted to doctors and hospitals. When you incorporate
all those costs, it turns out that actually Medicare is not very efficient at all."

From none other than the Cato Institute - A Libertarian "think tank". Sorry, but you will have to do better than getting your economic "facts" from partisan political hacks.

Trying doing a little reading outside the world of political hackery. Read the McKinsey Report and then get back to me. If you would like the highlights of that report I will be happy to provide them.

Socialized medicine refers to systems in which the government runs the hospitals and where doctors and staff are government employees.

Socialized medical insurance refers to a system where the hospitals are privately run and the doctors are either self employed or are employees of the hospital.

The sneaky duck is back. Either concept is functionally equivalent because:

A) The government sets all the rules for how much is paid for treatments.
B) The revenue that hospitals receive will be nearly all coming from tax dollars since a vast majority of Americans will not be able to afford their own insurance AND the taxes that it will cost to run this program.
C) Obama is not even bright enough to recognize that his plan would not even work unless it is compulsory (something that was part of Clinton's plan) or he is a liar and would make it compulsory after he is elected.
D) There is no compelling evidence that our government will run this system any better than it is currently run and maintain the same quality of service and care. Looking at the problems with other socialized health care services in other countries and the continuing ineptitude of our own government I am inclined to believe what we will get will be worse.

The fact is that no matter which paradigm is used (socialized "insurance" or taking over the whole damned thing) every tax payer will end up footing the bill. The effect is the same, the government sets all the costs (removing the freedom from the market) and the taxpayers pay for it.

Here is a huge question that you should ask yoursef. You are only thinking about this from the perspective of Democrats being in power. How much good will a program like this do when the Republicans are? Do you think it will be magically exempt from being used in political power plays? Do you think that will really be the best thing for the country?

Half of Americans do not want this system. If you persist and shove it down unwilling throats you will be witness to the ages-old proverb: If you play with fire you'll be burned.

From none other than the Cato Institute - A Libertarian "think tank". Sorry, but you will have to do better than getting your economic "facts" from partisan political hacks.

Ad hominem attack. You don't like the message so you attack the people saying it. Disprove them with some evidence, if you are able.

Atomic

Man you really don't understand what an adhominem attack is do you? Do you want me and others to start posting links to obvious political hackery in support of socializaed insurance and ask that you debunk all of it.

Lets cut past your nonsensical obfuscation of the issue and ask you a simple question. What do we do with the medically uninsured that arrive on the doorsteps of the ER?

Atomic

Here is a huge question that you should ask yoursef. You are only thinking about this from the perspective of Democrats being in power.

No I'm not. Have fun setting up the straw men.

How much good will a program like this do when the Republicans are? Do you think it will be magically exempt from being used in political power plays?

Are you retarded? Really man how old are you? Ever here of a little something called MEDICARE. Poiticians can use it as a football all they want but it remains - despite even the BushCo years - intact. And hey thanks for giving everyone another reason for not voting rethuglican! Too funny.

Do you think that will really be the best thing for the country?

Your right a guess I just wasn't thinking. Now that you put it that way. God Bless America. I'm on board.

Half of Americans do not want this system. If you persist and shove it down unwilling throats you will be witness to the ages-old proverb: If you play with fire you'll be burned.

The rest of the world wants it but you would like us to believe that the US doesn't.

I am astonished by your lack of understanding of the difference between socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance. You apparently see no difference between the government controlling one industry as opposed to two. Should I do the math for you 2-1=? Chew that one over for a while.

Oh and Einstein - Medicare is extremely popular.

Wwat a dolt!